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:::ps re:'' "Next time I will consider this as edit war".'' Can I remind you that the onus is on ''you'' to establish agreement on inclusion, not on me to justify exclusion. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 14:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
:::ps re:'' "Next time I will consider this as edit war".'' Can I remind you that the onus is on ''you'' to establish agreement on inclusion, not on me to justify exclusion. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 14:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
:Just a brief observation without having looked too much into this dispute, but if the article is to say that the aim of the KLA was the creation of a Greater Albania, then we need multiple secondary sources establishing that. I have no idea whether that was their aim or not, but I am sure that a single interview with a KLA commander is nowhere near enough. See [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]]. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 14:13, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
:Just a brief observation without having looked too much into this dispute, but if the article is to say that the aim of the KLA was the creation of a Greater Albania, then we need multiple secondary sources establishing that. I have no idea whether that was their aim or not, but I am sure that a single interview with a KLA commander is nowhere near enough. See [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]]. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 14:13, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


'''Answer''' (for more clarity where my answer begins and ends, because of usage of paragraphs)

The Kosovo War was fought against [[KLA]] and [[Yugoslav forces]]. Again, how can you claim that the goals of [[KLA]] are off-topic then? For every war you need to know what are the goals of each side. Second, he stated "Our goals" - again, it is his sentence and it is not editorialising. The words "Made clear" are off the ground and I will fix it, but that he stated that "unification of the all Albanians in Balkans" are their goals - it is pretty clear and it is not editorialising.

As for "KLA was "a political-national movement that aims to liberate Kosovo" - it was already given in the text. You have a lot of paragraphs in the text with references - and it is pretty clear. I don't see any problem with pointing out another goals of theirs - not just "liberation" of Kosovo, but "unification of all Albanians". He said that at the end. In the sentence, "Not just liberation but unifictation" - it is neutral. I point out that the goals of "liberation and against repressions", as they were pretty much discussed in the whole article, for example see the paragraph above, which is talking about KLA (and it is not my decision - I followed that in the article). Why not pointing out another of their goals, said by their spokesman? Again, no editorialising and completely within the spirit of the text.

You: "Do we go into depth about 'Slobo's' history of ethnic-nationalism beyond Kosovo in the 20 years prior to the war?"

We don't go, because of couple of simple things: I guess by "Slobo" that you mean Slobodan Milosevic - he wasn't in power 20 years before conflict (he started rising after 1984, when he was elected president of the Belgrade League of Communists City Committee - that is 12 years before conflict, if you count that the conflict started in 1996 when first skirmishes started, and 14 if you consider the official start of the conflict in February 1998). Second, the paragraphs "Kosovo in Tito's Yugoslavia (1945–1980)", "After the death of Tito (1980–86)", "Kosovo and the rise of Slobodan Milošević (1986–90)", "Constitutional amendments (1989–94)" are already TALKING about the stuff you said. Following your logic, I will ask you counter-question: Why are we talking about "nationalistic stuff" of Yugoslav authorities 20 years ago? For example: "Hard-liners instituted a fierce crackdown on nationalism of all kinds, Albanian and Serbian alike. Kosovo endured a heavy secret-police presence throughout most of the 1980s that ruthlessly suppressed any unauthorised nationalist manifestations, both Albanian and Serbian. According to a report quoted by Mark Thompson, as many as 580,000 inhabitants of Kosovo were arrested, interrogated, interned or reprimanded. Thousands of these lost their jobs or were expelled from their educational establishments. During this time tension between the Albanian and Serbian communities continued to escalate." It already exists in the article. So, the whole point of yours is blatant and wrong. Read the whole article again.

Why then mentioning that specific Krasniqis statement? As said, their "goals of liberation et"c are already stated in the paragraph above in the text. Example:

"Rugova's policy of passive resistance succeeded in keeping Kosovo quiet during the war with Slovenia, and the wars in Croatia and Bosnia during the early 1990s. However, as evidenced by the emergence of the KLA, this came at the cost of increasing frustration among Kosovo's Albanian population. In the mid-1990s, Rugova pleaded for a United Nations peacekeeping force for Kosovo. In 1997, Milošević was promoted to the presidency of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (comprising Serbia and Montenegro since its inception in April 1992). Continuing repression[citation needed] convinced many Albanians that only armed resistance would change the situation. On 22 April 1996, four attacks on Serbian security personnel were carried out almost simultaneously in several parts of Kosovo. A hitherto-unknown organisation calling itself the "Kosovo Liberation Army" (KLA) subsequently claimed responsibility. The nature of the KLA was at first mysterious. At first, '''it seemed that their only goals were to stop repression from Yugoslav authorities'''.[citation needed]" - and that's why I pointed out his statement only.

You: "I don't especially object to the "Greater Alb" link. That is a side-show to the main business of selective interpretation and partial quotation of the single primary source. Though how is this relevant anyway" "That is a side-show to the main business of selective interpretation and partial quotation of the single primary source. Though how is this relevant anyway?"

It was my response on your claim that "the source does not mention 'goals' and is mainly about Kosove, neither does it mention ''''Greater Albania''''". That last part of your sentence I proved wrong. You don't need to explicitly state something - he talks about the same stuff, just do not call it by that name. Again, what else is "Unification" - if they already have their national state called [[Albania]]? And how relevant is - he stated that it is one of their goals. It is clearly relevant. And it is not spoken some 20 years ago - it is spoken in '''July 1998''', when the '''war already began'''.

As for my side, I will fix some words if it is so problematic for you, but hiding the fact that he was their spokesman at that time and that he stated that "unification of all Albanians" was their goal, even after given his own quote, I will not allow that. But the next time, if you claim that I gave "blatant editorialising" with not good arguments, I will react to it as vandalism and insults appointed to me.
As for Cordless Larry, there is another quote by their commander. I will just copy-paste it here for you:
"KLA Commander [[Sylejman Selimi]] insisted:<ref>{{cite web|title=Liberating Kosovo: Coercive Diplomacy and U. S. Intervention |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=X5sa90AEvi0C&lpg=PA69&dq=greater%20albania%20kla&hl=sr&pg=PR7#v=onepage&q&f=false|publisher=[[Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs]]|date=2012|p=69}}</ref>
{{cquote|There is ''de facto'' Albanian nation. The tragedy is that European powers after [[World War I]] decided to divide that nation between several Balkan states. We are now fighting to unify the nation, to liberate all Albanians, including those in Macedonia, Montenegro, and other parts of Serbia. We are not just a liberation army for Kosovo.}}"
It was said during the conflict. I could put that quote in the text, but it is unnecessary as Krasniqi quote is enough.[[User:James Jim Moriarty|James Jim Moriarty]] ([[User talk:James Jim Moriarty|talk]]) 14:53, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
'''End'''

Revision as of 14:53, 4 December 2017

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Start of war

Cordless Larry,Baba Mica I'm copying this discussion here, so that other page watchers can join in.Pincrete (talk) 23:20, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Kosovo war began on February 28th, 1998, when the first large KLA clash (under the command of Adem Jashari) and the Yugoslav police near the village of Drenica occurred. Albanians celebrate February 28th as the beginning of the uprising in Kosovo. Then, the Serbian police started the same day offensive against the village of Donji Prekaz and surrounded the house of Adem Jashari where violent clashes took place from March 3rd to 6th. By March 5, negotiations were tried, but the Albanians refused to surrender and opened fire on the police in an attempt to break the siege. The police opened fire and settled the house with the land and killed the whole family.--Baba Mica (talk) 20:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You'll need to cite reliable sources for this, Baba Mica, not Pinterest. I've had a look for sources for both dates and they are sparse, so we should probably discuss this on the article's talk page. Pinging Pincrete for input. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Kosovo war began on February 28th, 1998, when the first large KLA clash (under the command of Adem Jashari) and the Yugoslav police near the village of Drenica occurred. Albanians celebrate February 28th as the beginning of the uprising in Kosovo. Then, the Serbian police started the same day offensive against the village of Donji Prekaz and surrounded the house of Adem Jashari where violent clashes took place from March 3rd to 6th. By March 5, negotiations were tried, but the Albanians refused to surrender and opened fire on the police in an attempt to break the siege. The police opened fire and settled the house with the land and killed the whole family.--Baba Mica (talk) 20:59, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Kosovo_War --Baba Mica (talk) 20:59, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I know more details.--Baba Mica (talk) 21:00, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A Wikipedia article can't be a source for a Wikipedia article, and nor can your personal knowledge, Baba Mica. Please see WP:RS. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:02, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

February 28 is the last day of February. Of course the next day is March 1. The February 28th event in the village of Donje Likošane was the first major armed conflict in Kosovo and Metohija since the end of the Second World War. As always, firing machine guns began, and the epilogue was a mortar fire. In addition to all this, I take into account that that day Slobodan Milosevic ordered an anti-terrorist operation that was not far from the military offensive. On February 28, for the first time, the first frontal clashes between the UCK and the Serbian gendarmerie occurred. The offensive to Donji Prekaz village was using artillery for the first time in the Kosovo war. Therefore, as the optimal date for the commencement of the entire war, I take February 28, 1998. Ramush Haradinaj in his memoirs mentioned that the KLA units were preparing for an armed rebellion on March 1st, in large proportions, in January 1998. But the day before Adem Jashari and his group suddenly faced a police patrol sent to arrest him for a number of diversions and partisan attacks from 1995/1996. Of course, it did not come to his mind to surrender without a fight and there was a clash with the most dead Serbian policemen until then. Serbia launched a total frontal offensive against the Jashari group and joined the army. After a three-day exchange of fire in the village of Donji Prekaz, the Serb security forces entered Donji Prekaz and surrounded Jashari who refused to surrender and fight until the death of March 6th.--Baba Mica (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC) Ask the Albanians (members of the KLA) and former members of the Serbian police. I will find. I am from the Balkans and I know both Albanians and Serbs. I was a witness.--Baba Mica (talk) 21:05, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I realise that there was violence in February, but that does not necessarily mean that is when the war is widely considered to have started. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:06, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here, the Americans are the most reliable source: https://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/kosovo98/timeline.shtml --Baba Mica (talk) 21:10, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That timeline doesn't give a clear start date to the conflict. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:11, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that that hrw is ambiguous, would text explaining the 'escalating situation' work? Pincrete (talk) 23:22, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, yes. I have looked for sources and there are very few clearly stating "The Kosovo War started on [date]" or something similar (that includes the source presently being cited for 5 March). I think we should perhaps avoid giving a specific date and instead use "February/March" in the infobox. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:09, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That was what a quick look at the sources led me to conclude, I removed hrw, only for 'speed', but it itself supports an 'escalating tensions' scenarion. Pincrete (talk) 08:23, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have found some reliable sources (one of which states 28 February and another gives a more vague February start date), so I have modified the introduction. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:24, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from user talk

What is a stable version? What are you talking about? And Larry agreed with me, and You're doing something here. I left those four sources, and you are returning an old and not reliable source. Albanians celebrate February 28 as the day of the uprising against the Serbian authorities because on that day began organized attacks under the command of Adem Jashari. The United States has reliable sources because it has controlled the entire situation on the ground from the very beginning. A major conflict between Albanians and the Serbian gendarmerie broke out on February 28, 1998, when groups under the command of Adem Jashari attacked the police patrol in Donji Likosan, in order to confiscate the area of ethnic Albanians from the Serbian police. After great losses, the Serbian authorities and Slobodan Milosevic as the supreme military commander launched the same day the army and paramilitary formations and organized an offensive against the ethnic Albanian village Donji Prekaz. This village is the birthplace of Adem Jashari, who with his smaller group led guerrilla fighting with far more numerous police, military and paramilitary formations. On March 3rd, the Serb forces pushed Jashari's well-armed group down to his house leaving ruins in mortar fire. Serbian authorities gave Jashari to surrender in 48 hours together with family members. Jashari refused and decided on March 5th to launch a counter attack when the Serbian deadline for the surrender expired. He tried to break through the blockade, but Serb forces used artillery and rocket launchers. On the morning of March 6, 1998, Jashari's house was compared to the land, and Adem Jashari and 45 family members and wider relatives were killed. So it was not rebellion that caused the death of Jashari, but Adem Jashari rebelled in order to force the Serbian authorities to release from the prison of Albanian political prisoners. Here is a Serb policeman to whom the Albanian rebels intercepted a patrol in the village of Likosane on February 28, 1998, who survived the wounding of several bullets.

Montenegrin source of information:

http://www.nezavisne.com/novosti/ex-yu/Zandarm-pogodjen-sa-7-metaka-na-Kosovu-docekao-penziju/357725--Baba Mica (talk) 10:48, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

American sources:

https://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/kosovo98/timeline.shtml

A far more reliable source than Larry.--Baba Mica (talk) 10:48, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Baba Mica One of the sources you used previously is in fact a 'mirror' of WP, though you presented it as being PBS. The hrw confirms that a 'start date' is unclear, but it doesn't confirm a 28 Feb start. However the proper place for this discussion is the article talk, please continue the discussion there. Larry and I are already of the opinion that an 'open-ended' text might be appropriate (ie late Feb early March). Pincrete (talk) 11:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please also take care not to do things like this when editing, Baba Mica. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:33, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian Rebellion Day in Kosovo

Albanians mark February 28 as the day of the rebellion against the alleged occupier. Serbian authorities admit that Albanian action broke out on February 28th. On the same day, the Serbian government launched a general offensive. Here are Albanian sources:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxbQbamH2dg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu3Q0CHFnhQ

Here's the Serbian data:

http://www.bundesheer.at/pdf_pool/publikationen/01_kse1_02_tck.pdf

http://www.epokaere.com/sq/Opinione/Nga-kujtesa-e-dit%C3%ABs-28-shkurt-1998

Serbian Raid against Drenica, February to March

On 28 February, a battle-like clash between UÇK fighters on the one side and heavily armed SAJ, JNPJ and PJM units on the other, equipped with 20 helicopter gunships and 30 armoured personnel carriers, took place near the Drenica village of Likoshan (Likošan). The incident was triggered off by the killing of four Serbian policemen in an UÇK ambush. During the next three days, more than 16 Albanian guerrillas were killed..--Baba Mica (talk) 14:49, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What we need is sources that clearly state when the war started, Baba Mica, not details of events that you think signalled the start of the war. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I sent you everything and chewed it. The Albanians and the Serbian government also claim. The Americans and the International Community argue the same. Only two of you are rebelling and looking for hairs in your egg. I will no longer deal with this topic. You got me on your head. If you do not understand now, there will have to be some better and younger generation of Wikipedians. It was enough for me, and I have more data. No more power.

I sent you everything and chewed it. The Albanians and the Serbian government also claim. The Americans and the International Community argue the same. Only two of you are rebelling and looking for hairs in your egg. I will no longer deal with this topic. You got me on your head. If you do not understand now, there will have to be some better and younger generation of Wikipedians. It was enough for me, and I have more data. No more power.--Baba Mica (talk) 15:29, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's your sources and do what you want. I do not care:

http://www.bundesheer.at/pdf_pool/publikationen/01_kse1_02_tck.pdf--Baba Mica (talk) 15:36, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You will do it. I am not interested in this article even 1/100. Goodbye.--Baba Mica (talk) 15:55, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Missing equipment

In the section weaponry and vehicles used you missed the CF-18 Hornet flown by the RCAF under the auspices of Operation Allied Force where it "conducted 10 per cent of all strikes, including 558 bombing missions." Here is a reference/history of Canada's CF-18 Hornets. 50.64.119.38 (talk) 03:32, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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SAS man killed

USER:Hrvoje1389, IMO there is not a bat-in-hell's chance of this edit passing any WP vetting by other editors, WP:RSN, or wherever. A single unnamed KLA commander, in a single news source, not supported by any subsequent 'book' studies, is not WP:RS for this claim - certainly not in WP voice. "Quoted commander who was actually there, seems reliable", is pretty silly. It is not whether the commander impresses YOU or ME sufficiently by the likelihood of him being accurate, but rather whether he impressed those who actually wrote the history books. Pincrete (talk) 10:43, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Very professional and mature response from you. Thanks. I stand by my claim - reliable source quoted commander from the battlefield. As for history books, it takes years and years for many facts to come to light, but they eventually do. That explains why there is no mention of this in them. Why would NATO officials confirm they had casualties, especially when clandestine operations are involved, even before the war began? Hrvoje1389 (talk) 11:12, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the possibility exists that NATO would seek to 'cover up' SAS involvement and/or casualties, but we don't make that judgment. If the majority of reliable researchers have not established the truth of the claim .... it cannot be made here, especially in our voice. It does not trouble you that the 'KLA commander' does not even have a name such that his claim can be assessed, nor that the claim was never verified by other sources? Pincrete (talk) 11:22, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The nameless KLA commander does not bother me, just like a nameless tank commander that does not bother anyone either. As for the source, it says what it says, I don't have any other to add at the moment and I find The Independent to be reliable. When I quoted that source and added that content I broke no rules. Hrvoje1389 (talk) 12:24, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The "nameless tank commander"'s opinions are not put in WP's voice, they are cited as an example by an historian. The "Indy", does not claim that the SAS death is true, it simply claims that a KLA commander said it. Politicians, military leaders, newspapers etc say all sorts of things all the time, unless corroborated by other RS, they cannot be included in WP voice. I didn't say that you broke any rules, I did say, and repeat that no WP source-vetting process would endorse this use of this source. Pincrete (talk) 13:51, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Double standard. Hrvoje1389 (talk) 14:02, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you cannot tell the difference between "a historian reported that Donald Trump said he is honest", and "Donald Trump is honest", perhaps editing here is nor for you. Pincrete (talk) 14:16, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much. I will take your advice to heart. Hrvoje1389 (talk) 14:23, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Editorialising"

nb early part copied from my talk page. Pincrete (talk) 14:11, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

From the article Greater Albania:

"...Another term used by Albanians, is "Albanian national reunification"" (Template:Lang-sq).[1]


From the Kosovo war, in interview in Der Spiegel:

Krasniqi: Wir wollen mehr als die Unabhängigkeit. Unser Ziel ist die Vereinigung aller Albaner auf dem Balkan. (Krasniqi: We want more than independence. Our goal is the unification of all Albanians in the Balkans.[2] When asked if that meant that they will start armed insurgencies in other Balkan nations where Albanians are considerable minority, he answered that "beginning rebellions in Montenegro and FRY Macedonia (FRYM) depends only on his brothers and sisters in those countries" and that in FRYM, "KLA was already active".[2]

1. You claimed that there is not mention of "Greater Albania" by any way in that source. If "Unification of all Albanians in the Balkans" is not the concept of "Greater Albania", then what is that?

2. You claimed that KLA was off-topic, and that the page is about Kosovo War. For every war, goals of all sides are in matter and surely not off-topic. KLA was one of the two sides who fought in Kosovo war. How can then their goals be off-topic?

3. You stated that he didn't said that "unification of Albanians" is one of goals of KLA. As seen above, in the source (interview), he clearly stated "Our Goal is..." in his sentence. Explain me how then it is not their goal?


Thank you for the answers in advance.James Jim Moriarty (talk) 22:11, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Alternativat e ribashkimit kombëtar të shqiptarëve dhe të Shqipërisë Etnike..!". Gazeta Ditore (in Albanian). 10 December 2012. Retrieved 1 January 2013. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: deprecated archival service (link)
  2. ^ a b "„Die Realität ist der Krieg"". Der Spiegel (28): 122–123. 1998. Retrieved 25 November 2017.

James Jim Moriarty, this edit and this edit are blatant editorialising. Is it Krasniqi who says that the goals are made clear by that interview? Is it Der Spiegel who says it? No to both, it is JJM interpreting a single primary source to conclude that the primary goal of KLA was a "Greater Albania", ignoring completely that this is a single primary source and that 4/5 of the interview is anyhow about Kosovo.

I was tempted to remove completely, the text may be relevant to the KLA page, but how is it relevant to the war page? I decided to remove the blatant editorialising and simply leave a neutral version of the interview until other editors became involved and gave their opinion. My neutral version has Krasniqi saying that "KLA was "a political-national movement that aims to liberate Kosovo" but that they also wanted the unification of all Albanians in the Balkans.

You don't want that summary of his two main points. You ONLY want the element that says that KLA's aspirations are pan-Albanian, even though that is less than 1/10th of the interview. This is much less blatant than your original edit, but it continues the wish to interpret and present a single primary source in a particular way.

I don't especially object to the "Greater Alb" link. That is a side-show to the main business of selective interpretation and partial quotation of the single primary source. Though how is this relevant anyway? Do we go into depth about 'Slobo's' history of ethnic-nationalism beyond Kosovo in the 20 years prior to the war? No, we don't despite 100s of sources drawing attention to it. Why is the KLA having aspirations beyond Kosovo either surprising or relevant to the war? Pincrete (talk) 14:09, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ps re: "Next time I will consider this as edit war". Can I remind you that the onus is on you to establish agreement on inclusion, not on me to justify exclusion. Pincrete (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just a brief observation without having looked too much into this dispute, but if the article is to say that the aim of the KLA was the creation of a Greater Albania, then we need multiple secondary sources establishing that. I have no idea whether that was their aim or not, but I am sure that a single interview with a KLA commander is nowhere near enough. See WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:13, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Answer (for more clarity where my answer begins and ends, because of usage of paragraphs)

The Kosovo War was fought against KLA and Yugoslav forces. Again, how can you claim that the goals of KLA are off-topic then? For every war you need to know what are the goals of each side. Second, he stated "Our goals" - again, it is his sentence and it is not editorialising. The words "Made clear" are off the ground and I will fix it, but that he stated that "unification of the all Albanians in Balkans" are their goals - it is pretty clear and it is not editorialising.

As for "KLA was "a political-national movement that aims to liberate Kosovo" - it was already given in the text. You have a lot of paragraphs in the text with references - and it is pretty clear. I don't see any problem with pointing out another goals of theirs - not just "liberation" of Kosovo, but "unification of all Albanians". He said that at the end. In the sentence, "Not just liberation but unifictation" - it is neutral. I point out that the goals of "liberation and against repressions", as they were pretty much discussed in the whole article, for example see the paragraph above, which is talking about KLA (and it is not my decision - I followed that in the article). Why not pointing out another of their goals, said by their spokesman? Again, no editorialising and completely within the spirit of the text.

You: "Do we go into depth about 'Slobo's' history of ethnic-nationalism beyond Kosovo in the 20 years prior to the war?"

We don't go, because of couple of simple things: I guess by "Slobo" that you mean Slobodan Milosevic - he wasn't in power 20 years before conflict (he started rising after 1984, when he was elected president of the Belgrade League of Communists City Committee - that is 12 years before conflict, if you count that the conflict started in 1996 when first skirmishes started, and 14 if you consider the official start of the conflict in February 1998). Second, the paragraphs "Kosovo in Tito's Yugoslavia (1945–1980)", "After the death of Tito (1980–86)", "Kosovo and the rise of Slobodan Milošević (1986–90)", "Constitutional amendments (1989–94)" are already TALKING about the stuff you said. Following your logic, I will ask you counter-question: Why are we talking about "nationalistic stuff" of Yugoslav authorities 20 years ago? For example: "Hard-liners instituted a fierce crackdown on nationalism of all kinds, Albanian and Serbian alike. Kosovo endured a heavy secret-police presence throughout most of the 1980s that ruthlessly suppressed any unauthorised nationalist manifestations, both Albanian and Serbian. According to a report quoted by Mark Thompson, as many as 580,000 inhabitants of Kosovo were arrested, interrogated, interned or reprimanded. Thousands of these lost their jobs or were expelled from their educational establishments. During this time tension between the Albanian and Serbian communities continued to escalate." It already exists in the article. So, the whole point of yours is blatant and wrong. Read the whole article again.

Why then mentioning that specific Krasniqis statement? As said, their "goals of liberation et"c are already stated in the paragraph above in the text. Example:

"Rugova's policy of passive resistance succeeded in keeping Kosovo quiet during the war with Slovenia, and the wars in Croatia and Bosnia during the early 1990s. However, as evidenced by the emergence of the KLA, this came at the cost of increasing frustration among Kosovo's Albanian population. In the mid-1990s, Rugova pleaded for a United Nations peacekeeping force for Kosovo. In 1997, Milošević was promoted to the presidency of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (comprising Serbia and Montenegro since its inception in April 1992). Continuing repression[citation needed] convinced many Albanians that only armed resistance would change the situation. On 22 April 1996, four attacks on Serbian security personnel were carried out almost simultaneously in several parts of Kosovo. A hitherto-unknown organisation calling itself the "Kosovo Liberation Army" (KLA) subsequently claimed responsibility. The nature of the KLA was at first mysterious. At first, it seemed that their only goals were to stop repression from Yugoslav authorities.[citation needed]" - and that's why I pointed out his statement only.

You: "I don't especially object to the "Greater Alb" link. That is a side-show to the main business of selective interpretation and partial quotation of the single primary source. Though how is this relevant anyway" "That is a side-show to the main business of selective interpretation and partial quotation of the single primary source. Though how is this relevant anyway?"

It was my response on your claim that "the source does not mention 'goals' and is mainly about Kosove, neither does it mention 'Greater Albania'". That last part of your sentence I proved wrong. You don't need to explicitly state something - he talks about the same stuff, just do not call it by that name. Again, what else is "Unification" - if they already have their national state called Albania? And how relevant is - he stated that it is one of their goals. It is clearly relevant. And it is not spoken some 20 years ago - it is spoken in July 1998, when the war already began.

As for my side, I will fix some words if it is so problematic for you, but hiding the fact that he was their spokesman at that time and that he stated that "unification of all Albanians" was their goal, even after given his own quote, I will not allow that. But the next time, if you claim that I gave "blatant editorialising" with not good arguments, I will react to it as vandalism and insults appointed to me. As for Cordless Larry, there is another quote by their commander. I will just copy-paste it here for you: "KLA Commander Sylejman Selimi insisted:[1]

"

It was said during the conflict. I could put that quote in the text, but it is unnecessary as Krasniqi quote is enough.James Jim Moriarty (talk) 14:53, 4 December 2017 (UTC) End[reply]

  1. ^ "Liberating Kosovo: Coercive Diplomacy and U. S. Intervention". Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs. 2012. p. 69.
allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F813648712