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@156.62.10.21: We've discussed the Russian Union of Engineers report here at least twice; I think consensus was against including it. Its conclusions are Fringe, in other words, substantially different from those of the rest of the world. In order to include it we need reliable secondary sources that indicate it's of enough WP:Weight to justify mentioning it. The sources you've given so far are both, unsurprisingly, conspiracy theorist websites (Globalresearch and [1]). I say it's unsurprising, because last time we found that outside of Russia, virtually nobody takes those conclusions seriously except for the same kinds of places where you also hear that 9/11 was an inside job and/or that ebola is a CIA plot. I'm opposed to giving sources like that a link from the article. Geogene (talk) 00:34, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. - Ahunt (talk) 16:31, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Unreliable source. Ex nihil ^(talk) 23:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Concur. The discussion has been WP:EXHAUSTed. It would be appreciated if all new editors (IP editors included) took the time to read talk pages thoroughly before trying to edit war content into an article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:20, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Over and above the 'RS' question, (with which I concur with others), text which simply says a report has been published (without any indication of content), is fairly pointless. Pincrete (talk) 11:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, even if there were any speculation as to what it may or may not say, alluding to it is a breach of WP:CRYSTAL... and Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:56, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What about Parry's article and the CIA whistleblower? Why isn't this mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.60.209.192 (talk) 08:01, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly, WP:PROFRINGE. See the Archive. Geogene (talk) 20:35, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The JIT has released some findings related to the crash, which I've added to the article. If you want to read a transcript the Dutch ministry has one here, or a video with English translation here. Summary: Buk fired from rebel territory (a 500x600m field 6km south of Snizhne). Buk transported to and from Russia before and after crash respectively. Stickee (talk) 12:42, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Secondary source [2].Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I've only used secondary sources in the article itself. Stickee (talk) 13:41, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So, this is now an official conclusion by international investigation, basically a matter of fact. Perhaps this should be placed more prominently in the beginning of intro. So, according to rebels, "We never had such air defence systems, nor the people who could operate them". Yes, they never had. According to the investigation, the Buk was operated by Russian military team if I understand correctly. My very best wishes (talk) 14:45, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I would strongly support greater prominence. Regarding direct personal responsibility, as the BBC source says, the JIT "established the identities of about 100 people "linked to the crash or the transport of the Buk" missile, but they are yet to determine who could be held criminally responsible." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:59, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The actual Openbaar Ministerie films are also quite interesting as a reference because they provide quite a lot of technical details on how the investigation was actually performed. For example, that the specific missile model was identified by dismantling a number of authentic "Buk" missiles of different models and comparing the remains found in the wrecked plane. Cloud200 (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure there was a strong conclusion was that it was a Russian operated installation; the conclusion limited itself to stating it was a Russian (owned) installation that after firing the missile was moved back into Russia. It does not exclude (at this stage) that it may have been loaned to other operators during its stay inside Ukraine. Arnoutf (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just another publication [3]... Yes, you are probably right. One should probably look at the actual conclusions by the investigation. Were these conclusions made public, with all detail? My very best wishes (talk) 15:43, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is fairly explicit in the NYT that the board stopped short of pinpointing the identity/nationality of the individuals actually operating the missile, other than that, it appears to wholly endorse Russian and seperatist responsibility for the shoot-down and cover-up. Pincrete (talk) 22:38, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A short summary of this info should be included in the lede.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think a radical re-write of the lead is in order, giving greater prominence to the two Dutch enquiries and pruning and 'time-stamping' early speculations, claims and counter-claims. Although largely chronological at present, the most important conclusions are somewhat 'buried' and timings are not always clear. Pincrete (talk) 22:36, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fully agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a good idea. - Ahunt (talk) 23:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hey! I also agree.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:03, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sandbox I've sandboxed the article, although I only intend to modify the lead, and have begun to (mentally) formulate a re-write, I'm unlikely to have much time for a few days to do this, but others are welcome to join in/comment. Pincrete (talk) 08:04, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree, I think we should also rewrite the ridiculously bloated cause of crash section, as all speculations and fringe in that section can now be delegated to "speculations" rather then serious analysis. Arnoutf (talk) 17:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As well as being bloated, I think some sections lack either sequential or thematic coherence, probably as a result of 'updates' being inserted without regard for overall coherence. Now seems a good time to try to fix. Pincrete (talk) 19:06, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since all the investigation is trying to establish the 'cause of crash', this seems a very vaguely titled sub-section, but since I cannot work out specifically what it is about, I cannot make any suggestions. Pincrete (talk) 16:06, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

William M. Connolley I have very reluctantly reverted your edit, while most of us agree that the lead needs a major rewrite (see above) for reasons similar to your own, I don't think we can state Dutch findings as objective fact. We can, and do intend to give DSB and JIT greater prominence and to prune/summarise much earlier speculation, and drop the current, mainly chrnological structure, but it still has to be phrased as 'JIT concluded', 'DSB found' etc.

I intended to start work on a rewrite today and have 'sandboxed' the article, however RL intruded, you are very welcome to join in, but I think we need to exercise great care doing this. Pincrete (talk) 16:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. At some point (and I think now is that point) we can switch over from "X says that this happened" to "this happened"; once there is no longer reasonable doubt. And there is no longer reasonable doubt William M. Connolley (talk) 20:40, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree, our job is to present the available info in a balanced, accurate form, not reach conclusions about the balance of evidence. However, even if you were right about now being the time to make such a change, the recent JIT conference intentionally avoided saying who fired the missile, not their identity, group or even nationality, as did the DSB. Your edit said as a fact that it was fired by pro-Russian insurgents, JIT did not say that or even imply it. Clearly it is one of JIT's lines of inquiry, and they may say more at a later date, but at the moment, who fired is an assertion from many Western sources and a claimed probability from others. This is one of many reasons why we need to be very careful about our rephrasing. Pincrete (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in agreement with Pincrete. Per WP:NOT#JOURNALISM, it's not up to editors to read between the lines. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:04, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with edit by William, except that instead of "The plane was shot down by pro-Russian insurgents", it should tell "The plane was shot down by pro-Russian insurgents or by Russian military team" because that is what most recent official and older findings imply.

P.S. Note also that telling "mistakenly" in old/current version is wrong because no one knows the actual intentions. According to one version, the intention was to shot down a Russian passenger plane that "accidently" changed its route during this day (as a causus belli for large-scale invasion into the Ukrainian territory), but the plan was changed and they decided to hit a Ukrainian military plane and mistakenly hit Flight 17. One of the reason for such version is that transporting the single Buk to Donbass was not needed to hit Ukrainian military planes: a lot of them were shot down using other weaponry that rebels already had. (The Buk is only needed to hit high-flying objects like passenger planes, but Ukrainian military planes flew on a much lower altitude). My very best wishes (talk) 23:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right about the use of 'mistakenly'. I'd missed that in the reading. No second-guessing intent or lack of intent. The NPOV reading is simply shot down without any of the speculation. Speculative scenarios are editorialising/OR as to who was responsible and OR motives. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:12, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto, right about 'mistakenly'. We cannot say that DSB or JIT 'pointed the finger' at Russian or Russian backed rebels since they did not say it (if I remember correctly), and we cannot turn an inference into a fact. I believe JIT intimated that it had evidence which would 'narrow the field', which they would offer to any criminal/further investigations. Balancing readability with scrupulous accuracy needs great care IMO. Pincrete (talk) 08:52, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

At this stage, what we have is tabloid and headline soundbytes implying that the the culprits have been nailed, but the actual statements by the official bodies do not. Nothing changes until the JIT announces its findings. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Detail, since it is likely to go from the lead anyhow, but 'mistakenly' actually comes from the US source and so long as that is clear, it isn't editorialising but part of US claim. JIT may not announce for some time, since they have previously indicated a wish to present in a judicial situation. Pincrete (talk) 08:24, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, yes. You're correct. Thinking on it, it may also come across as POV without the 'mistakenly' as it could also imply that it was intentional. Given that you're reworking the article, I'll leave it to your discretion as to whether it should be restored. My gut feeling is that, at this point in time, it should. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:18, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iryna, I'm not sure that 'mistakenly' matters either way in the lead if claimed deeds, rather than intenions, are being reported, but I'll reinsert it in my rework. The sandboxed rewrite is at a stage that your (or other editors') comments/thoughts would be welcome. Pincrete (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Pincrete: Cheers. I'll read through it ASAP. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:43, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The lead rewrite is ready for inspection, and if there are no major complaints will be BRD'd into place in the next few days (hopefully more 'D' than 'R'). At present it is 7 shortish paragraphs, but pairs could easily be merged to make 5 or 4. I've left it in that longer form for convenience of discussion. I've actually included more topic areas, but tried to put related info into less detailed paras thematically. If in doubt, I left topics in. I believe I have checked my refs, but any double checking would be welcome.

I'm uncertain whether 'Bellingcat' deserves to be in the lead at all, it is more notable as an example of the role that analysis of social media has played in the investigation than for any specific contribution from them. Apart from the launcher number, all their claims I believe, have also been made by others. Pincrete (talk) 15:26, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Pincrete for the work. A few comments (below) to prevent to many changes

1)The first two opening lines "Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was shot down on 17 July 2014, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board.[2] Contact with the Boeing 777-200ER airliner was lost about 50 km (31 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border, and it crashed near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 40 km (25 mi) from the border." are rather complex.

Perhaps splitting them up would improve readability (albeit making it all somewhat staccato)? e.g. "Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. It was shot down on 17 July 2014, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board.[2] Contact with the Boeing 777-200ER airliner was lost about 50 km (31 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border. The plane crashed near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 40 km (25 mi) from the border."

2) Second section. The phrase "missile type responsible and found" is a bit odd. The missile type was not responsible (as that implies intention) and the JIT concluded rather than "found". I would suggest "missile type causing the crash and concluded"

3) Third section. I find this somewhat problematic. The first line "The DSB and JIT findings confirmed earlier claims by the Ukrainian government and Western intelligence sources as to the missile type and launch area." implies the intelligence services are right (which is the case here) but would suggest the next (so far unproven) claim is also right (implied synthesis-> original research). I would suggest moving this line to the end of the previous section (where it closes the DSB-JIT findings) and rephrase the 3rd section as

4)Consider further reducing sections 3,4,5,6 (initial responses and Bellingcat) (although I can imagine you think that would go too far in this first step). Perhaps something like this might work though

In 2014, Ukraine and US intelligence alleged that Russia had supplied the missile to pro-Russian insurgents, who had mistakenly shot down the aircraft.[9][10][11][12] German intelligence sources in 2014 reported that they believe insurgents had stolen the missile from the Ukrainian military.[13][14][15] Russian government sources initially claimed that the aircraft was being tailed by a Ukrainian military jet at the time of the shootdown[10] and that Ukraine was responsible since the crash had happened in Ukrainian airspace.[16] Several other theories about the crash, denying Russian involvement, have since appeared in Russian media.[17] Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media profile attributed to Russian Colonel Igor Girkin, a leader of the Donbass separatist militia, claiming responsibility for shooting down an AN-26 near Torez. Later the same day, the separatists denied involvement, and the post was removed.[18][19][20]. Bwetween 2014 and 2016, UK based investigative collective Bellingcat, based onon examination of photos in social media and other open-source information, made a series of allegations, which arrives at the conclusion that the launcher used to shoot down the aircraft was unit 332 of the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade based in Kursk .[24][25][26][27] [28]"

Last section is fine (no comments). Sorry for not pitching in earlier. Feel free to add it boldly as your version is imho a vast improvement over the current. Again, thanks for the hard work. Cheers Arnoutf (talk) 17:06, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Most of these suggestions seem excellent, better flow without loss of significant info or neutrality. I would incorporate straightaway, were it not for RL and the need to eat. Thanks. Pincrete (talk) 18:07, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a list showing the dates of all the planes shot down in Ukraine during the civil war?

-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.38.9 (talk) 01:29, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The "Background" section of this article lists some, but I'm not sure it's an exhaustive list. Alternatively, section 5.3 (page 181) of the DSB's final report goes into much further detail. Stickee (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that such a list would be relevant to the War in Donbass article or similar, but not this one. Arnoutf (talk) 07:51, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If memory serves correctly, a 'list' of this nature became redundant to the War in Donbass article as there was far too much to cover in the umbrella article. Project Military History took on these aspects quickly, and there is also comprehensive coverage of all reported events in the timelines of the war. As it stands, there haven't been very many planes, helicopters, etc. shot down, full stop. The majority of the war has, unfortunately, been conventional warfare in solidly inhabited areas. As a side note, only a few sources call it a 'civil war' for good reason. It may serve G well to read the main article in order to understand the complexities, and why it is simplistic to consider it to be such. As Wikipedia is WP:NOTEVERYTHING, serving as a numbers cruncher for all aspects of events is not a good idea. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:28, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, no need for a complete list in this article. Stickee (talk) 23:17, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To the right is a satellite image provided by the RF purporting to be images of Buks. I'm of the opinion it shouldn't be added to the article. Right now, the images relating to the cause of crash in the article only contain facts concluded by the DSB/JIT or their evidence. Relevant diff: [4] Stickee (talk) 23:16, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Text from the article: "On 21 July 2014, the Russian Ministry of Defence held a press conference and said that while the Boeing 777 was crashing, a Ukrainian Su-25 ground-attack aircraft approached to within 3 to 5 kilometres (1.9 to 3.1 mi) of the Malaysian airliner. The MoD also stated that satellite photographs showed that the Ukrainian army moved a Buk SAM battery to the area close to the territory controlled by the rebels on the morning of 17 July, hours before the crash."

What are you talking about? It is highly relevant image presented at the press-conference which is described in the article (i made text bold for you if you do not see it [5]). The image illustrates their statement that is in the article. This text citation exists in the article more than a year that means that there is a consensus about text and wording in the article. This image does not bring anything not related to this section and fully agrees with the section of the article. Moreover this image is very well sourced that proves its significance. Your edit should be immediately cancelled until clear argumentation.--Александр Мотин (talk) 07:49, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]