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Following a previous discussion (see Talk:Journey (band)/Archive 1#Status of former members) I feel certain issues have not been addressed. Reviewing the response left to my query, I understand the logic that has been implemented so far. However I feel that there is still an issue to be addressed in that how the musicians are listed currently on what they've done with the band (i.e. recording and touring = member, recording or touring or neither = not member) as opposed to official status granted by the band.

To illustrate my point let's look at an example: Hugh McDonald has been the bass player for Bon Jovi since 1994. In this time he has recorded multiple albums with the band and has been present on all of their tours. Yet, despite having been in the band for a long time (a lot longer than his predecessor in fact), he is not an official member of the band, and as such is not listed in the infobox. He was never granted membership to the band that he's been with for the best part of 20 years. On the other hand, Paul Mario Day, the original Iron Maiden vocalist, was in his band for a very short period of time, recorded nothing with the band, fronted the group for very few shows, and yet was an official member of that band.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter whether a musician has only toured with OR recorded with a band (or neither) does not determine that they are NOT an actual band member, and a musician recording with AND touring with a band does not determine that they ARE an actual band member. It's all a question of officiality. If Prairie Prince was a founding member of the band then he must have been officially part of the group, and should be listed in the infobox and moved from "touring musicians" to "former members". If Randy Jackson was a hired hand for an album and tour then he is not an official member, and so needs to be moved also.

I openly confess to having less knowledge about the history of Journey than other Wikipedians on these pages possess, so I'm not stating that the status quo is wrong. For all I know it's not. I also appreciate the issues left by ambiguity over who officially joined the band and who didn't, and obviously that may prevent us from knowing enough to make corrections (if any should be needed). However, I feel this issue needs to be pointed out, so that it is at least observed, even if it can't be addressed.

On an additional and completely separate note: Why is it that we are including a list for "session musicians" when there have been plenty of session musicians on the band's recordings and only three are included? Is that list necessary?

Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 13:11, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This raises an excellent point, but I don't know how we can resolve it outside of the status quo. Sometimes bands issue press releases listing their members, and designating which members are "official" and which aren't; sometimes they don't. When Herbie Herbert hired Steve Perry to be the band's new lead singer in 1977, I don't remember if the word "official" was ever used. And even press releases have issues as historical sources. Their purpose is not "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth;" their purpose is promotion, plain and simple. In 2007, Jeff Scott Soto was named the "official" lead singer at journeymusic.com, because the band wanted to promote themselves as being complete and being past the Augeri lip-syncing thing. And if Perry was never "named" the official lead singer in a press release, does that mean that Steve Perry was never in the band, while JSS was?

Another problem I have with "official" is that, in addition to the word's use for promotion, it is also used in an attempt to change history by people with an agenda in the present. Neal Schon apparently would like to pretend that Steve Augeri was never the band's official lead singer. And yet all the promotional materials from the Augeri period seem designed to get the fans to accept that he was, whether or not the word "official" was ever used.

Response to particular question: The three "session musicians" listed were the only three musicians who recorded with Journey but never performed with Journey.

Request: Until we've found a better standard for determining band membership, the touring and session musician lists should be restored to the template. I won't do it myself because I don't want an edit war. Burbridge, you should do it with the understanding that it is based on current consensus--and that the consensus can be changed as a result of this conversation.

One more point: I continue to hope that more of us can discuss these issues here, and am glad Burbridge joined the discussion.

Dave Golland (talk) 17:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying it's perfect and I'm perfectly aware that, especially in cases like this, there's always going to be a level of subjectivity. I understand and appreciate that. The main reason for this me posting this discussion is purely so that a) I have clarified areas I feel I wasn't clear enough on in the previous discussion about this topic, and b) if anyone else notices these issues then they have this piece ready to glance through so that they could understand why there are issues with regards to this subject in this particular case. Your comments put the issues into focus clear enough. It would be nice if we had more clarity from official channels but there you go. The one thing that I'm tempted to add is that maybe in some areas of the actual article there is more emphasis on what is considered to be the facts based on the "members" sections (e.g. in the first paragraph where it mentions Prairie Prince "served" as drummer, some readers may misinterpret what "served" actually means in this case), but on the whole I'd say that's the issue done and dusted. Thank you for your time. Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 16:03, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've previously noticed a couple of issues with the discography included on the main Journey page. These issues may have been discussed and decided upon before (in which case I've failed to recognise their mention in the archives) and if this is the case please ignore this discussion as there is nothing to be gained from discussing the issues any further. If I bring up something that hasn't been discussed, these points are more of a "food for thought" thing than an actual challenge on the status quo.

1. Not all of the albums listed are studio albums.

Generally speaking in these discographies only studio albums tend to be included, with all other albums left to their own discographies on the separate page, wouldn't it be best if the same logic was used here, considering the fact that there is another page for full discography?

Furthermore, why is it that only specific non-studio albums are included and not others from the same category (e.g. why one live album and not another?)?

2. The albums that aren't standard studio releases are not labled as such.

There is nothing to differentiate in the list between what is a studio release and what's not, meaning someone has to click on the album to find out exactly what it is. Therefore, wouldn't it be better if the live/soundtrack/compilation albums were labled as such, maybe in the same brackets as the year of release after a semi-colon?

To reiterate, please only take heed and respond to either of the issues in this discussion if they are unresolved, and I apologize if this post is unnecessary. Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 16:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Burbridge. Lately I've been buying a lot of MP3s at Amazon to recreate some old mixtapes from the 80s and 90s as playlists on my phone, and often I have to consult the Wikipedia pages of various bands to figure out which album I should be looking for if I want the original studio version. Most are helpfully using the logic you outline here.

I don't remember any discussion of this but I do remember that your logic used to be followed, and when it was edited to the current way I must have decided to ignore it for one or more of any number of reasons, including temporary exhaustion. I have no idea why everyone else seems to have ignored it, but their excuses must be at least as good as mine.

Dave Golland (talk) 16:13, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

An anonymous user with IP addresses beginning with 159.39... at the Journey Template page has been repeatedly attempting to change the Journey membership status of Randy Jackson, and ignoring edit summaries which direct him/her to the consensus on membership found on this page. Shall we request that an administrator block those IP addresses? Dave Golland (talk) 13:34, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, the user appears to have given up (at least for the time being). Dave Golland (talk) 14:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Journey and Steve Perry links are not up to date. Please fix. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.20.137.40 (talk) 08:31, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While a few of the edits made by the anonymous user these past two days might make some sense if proper sources were provided, the majority of them are erroneous. Including all of the session musicians from Dream, After Dream doesn't fit because the session musicians from the later Journey albums were actually filling roles held by permanent members. If the band performed with the London Symphony Orchestra, we wouldn't list every member of that orchestra as a Journey session musician. The band did not break up in 1987, true, but it went on hiatus and was inactive, thereby affecting the "years active" statement. While the band was on hiatus, Steve Perry was the lead singer (if he had been replaced the hiatus would have ended). The band was still on hiatus during 1993-1994, so band members who had left prior to the hiatus (Valory, Smith) did not return until after the hiatus. I'm assuming these changes refer to the musicians who appeared on the Time (Cubed) box set, but the band did not get back together for that release (all previously-unreleased songs had been previously recorded except for some instrumental numbers and one where Jonathan Cain sang lead vocals, but these were not really "Journey" per se). Lastly, it is unseemly for an anonymous user to make such drastic changes to a page. Create a Wikipedia account, find some proper sources, and discuss major changes on this talk page before implementing them. Dave Golland (talk) 21:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, because almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, Jeremey Hunsicker was never a member of Journey. We've established on this talk page that full members of journey both recorded released music and performed live with the band. Session musicians only recorded released music with the band, and touring musicians performed live with the band only. Hunsicker never performed live with Journey, nor did he record any songs with the band that have been released. He is one of many people who have lent their songwriting talents to the band (and I hope he was paid well for that), but even if they signed a contract and later reneged, he was not actually a member of the band. Note that this could change if the band ever releases songs which they recorded with him. Dave Golland (talk) 21:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Wikipedia. My reversions of your edits are not personal and have nothing to do with concealment of fact. Wikipedia has policies, procedures, and customs. If you attempt to follow these, you are welcome to make changes to this page which established users will not revert (and will even defend against vandals and anonymous users). Some pointers:

·Create an actual user name, so that your edits are not anonymous (to the extent to which anything is "not anonymous" on the internet). I should point out that even if you are an insider with a verified identity (e.g. a current or former member of the band or band staff), your opinions and edits will not automatically be treated as gospel. Even the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales, cannot make unsourced changes to his own Wikipedia page.

·Read the actual coding in the text of the page (i.e. click the "edit" tab at the top of the page, don't just edit from the main page). In this case, there is invisible language, found in the coding, which will give you information about the edits you are trying to make.

·Skim the prior discussions in this Talk page and read carefully any discussions pertaining to the edits you are trying to make. In this case there is established consensus as to the list of former band members and their definitions. You can change that consensus, but only through open discussion on this Talk page.

·Engage in discussion on this Talk page and attempt to achieve consensus on your changes before you make them.

·Ensure adequate sourcing for all statements of fact or changes to statements of fact. Saying that the evidence is found in many places does not cover this requirement. You have to cite the specific sources in the text, not in the edit summary, and provide hyperlinks where appropriate.

·Assume good faith on the part of your fellow editors. Accusing us of concealment does not assume good faith.

If you continue to ignore these pointers, I and other regular editors of this page will continue to revert your edits. But if you begin to learn and adhere to them, we are more likely to begin to give your edits the benefit of the doubt.

Again, welcome to Wikipedia. It is always good to have more interested editors.

Dave Golland (talk) 18:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is this good enough to at least say a reunion is possible?— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I responded to your note on my Talk page before I saw this. Here's what I said:

As long as we don't create a section with the word "rumor" in it," I think this source is as good as any. You could just add a brief paragraph to the history section, perhaps something like:

"As of 2014, Steve Perry and Neal Schon are in discussions for a second band reunion. According to Perry '[w]e’re trying. It’s tough. I’m doing my best in that area, and I can only do so much. The older I get, the more I do realize how important what we had all together and how it worked, [lifting] each other to this place that you can’t get to alone. I think that’s probably the biggest chemistry thing I recognize now.' As for Schon, he recently wrote on Facebook that 'I hope we can reach out to each other and connect once again. We had amazing chemistry together. I love him with all the love and admiration you could ever have.'"

This is a very interesting development. Arnel Pineda's contract should have expired by now (or will soon). If Perry got back into the mix, and especially if Steve Smith joins the reunion and displaces Deen Castronovo, I wonder if the dominant paradigm for the Journey history of the past eighteen years will become the story of breakups and reunions, rather than that of continuity, as it is now.

This is one of the reasons I love history so much! The "facts" don't change but the interpretations are constantly in flux.

Thanks for sharing this story with me.

Dave Golland (talk) 13:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 17:47, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've researched the quote. Unfortunately, the journalist from the article you posted is referencing a facebook post made in summer 2013. Schon's message to Perry of "let's talk soon" inadvertently fanned the proverbial flame of reunion rumors. At the very least, Schon is discussing his personal relationship with Perry. But we cannot prove that either side are interested in a reunion.

Ultimate Classic Rock ran with this same story on February 4th, 2014. Two days later they were informed by Journey's management that the story was not true and posted a suffix retraction.

Matter of fact, Fan Asylum, which is Steve Perry's official fan club agency--and the closest thing he has to an official site, posted a statement from Perry regarding the rumors on February 24, 2014:

"I'd like to make clear that the rumor that I have returned to the band Journey is totally untrue and only a rumor.

Sincerely,

Steve Perry"

Until Perry and Schon officially state that they are reuniting, we should not be posting any suggestion of a reunion. It only fans the flames of these rumors. It will irritate both Perry and Journey, whom have elected to part ways over 15 years ago. And, as much as many fans would love to see it happen, it's just not fact until it is fact. It's not fair to post what we cannot prove. Though a lot of the press are reporting the possibility of a reunion, it's not the same as confirming it. I've seen reports from Artisan News on YouTube and other sources reporting "scoops" with the hope of a reunion. I've even seen a recent video where a journalist asked Deen Castronovo if Perry was being brought back, and because he didn't give a sufficient answer, they are running with the rumors again.

For now, and likely for good, Arnel Pineda is the lead singer for Journey. If Steve Perry ever pursues a new record, we will know then--and only then--if it's a solo album or if he is returning to Journey.

As for Steve Smith, he has stated often on record that he was no longer interested in Journey. When Perry left in 1998, he had already put his jazz career on the shelf for over a year waiting for Perry to decide if he would continue. When Journey decided to hire a new singer, he opted to resume his jazz career and has moved on.

Risephoenixrise (talk) 03:31 28 July 2014 (UTC)