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I performed a revert on a change by User:Mcmachete of the translation of the term "Che" from "pal" or "mate" or "dude" to "hey". My understanding of the term Che is that "pal" or "mate" or "dude" are much better translations than "hey" (although I agree "hey" is a possible additional translation). But "hey" is slightly misleading as one wouldn't shout "Che" negatively, for example when they mean to say "Hey you, get away from my car!", you would use it to say "Hey mate" or in place of a word like "mate" in a longer sentance while talking informally to someone you know. A comment inserted in the article also states "Che is simply a word used similarly to "pal" in Argentina;" also.

My knowledge of South American Spanish is limited however so I was wondering what anyone with a good knowledge of South American Spanish thinks? Canderra 14:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Che," in Argentina, is what you just described it as. It is the attention getting word before an endearing term. That endearing term can also be an insult, as friends often dish out insults as a way of demonstrating closeness. i.e. "Larry, you old buzzard, get in here and blow out these candles."

A common Argentine greeting among close friends is "Che, flaco! que hacés?" Of course there would be upside down punctuation to frame the front of the phrases with ! and ?.

It definitely is not used to get the attention of someone you don't know. Think like when you hear "ehye, buddy" rather than "HEY! Come back with my car!"68.55.206.184 02:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what you wrote up here, but I just want to say that here in Argentina (and usually in Uruguay too) the word 'che' is used to get the attention of other person, whether you know his/her name or not. I use it every day and I know that it doesn't mean "dude" or "mate": it can be traduced as "hey", but 'che' can be used to introduce a phrase and not to call a person. --201.235.44.133 22:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How come wearing t-shirts with Che is legal? It is illegal to wear a t-shirt with image of Hitler or any other top Nazis, yet is is legal to wear one with image of Che. He was a communist and they were worse than the Nazis. This should be disallowed. Communists were cold blooded murders as well. Che was not a hero.

Norum

Another communist hater? So what you are saying is that a communist is a coldblooded murder only because you say so, am i right? this reminds me of the debate about Lars Ohly calling himself a communist in Sweden. Che is not a murderer because he is a communist, as a matter of fact he said;

"At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love.
 It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality".

Che killed people, yes, But for me it would be the same thing as forbidding the use of George Bush on t-shirts because he invaded Iraq and therefore is guilty of thousands of deaths. Of course, i am probably biased since i am a communist myself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.208.136.18 (talk)

This guy was a terrorist, plain and simple. There is nothing to be proud of by declaring yourself a communist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.235.205.201 (talk)

It isn't illegal to wear shirts depicting Hitler. Welcome to America.

So you call me a communist hater...well, unlike you, I grew up in a communist country so I happen to know what they are capable of. For example, in 1940 communists killed 25,000 polish officers, aristocracy, priests etc within 2 weeks. Now that's a very good reason to hate them.

So it's not illegal in America to wear tshirts with Hitler. Try wearing one of these in Germany and you'll get arrested. Maybe it's legal in America, but try to wear it publically and someone will lynch you. Norum

I persume you are referring to the Polish September Campaign. It was certainly a troubled time for the whole of Europe but Poland definatly suffered particularly bad. Still, I don't think it's fair to blame a socio-economic philsophy for the deaths of all those people. Just like the recent Iraq invasion by the USA (should they be called "the Capatalists"?), which has resulted in the deaths of around 40,000+ Iraqis, the Poland September Campaign was an invasion by one regime, largely due to political relations with many others.

Besides, people don't tend to refer to the Nazi's as the "Capatalists - who executed 8 million people", no they refer to them by their correct name: "the Nazi's", just as the regime which invaded Poland wasn't "The Communists", it was "the Soviet Union", a regime actually opposed by Che Guevara. Not that any of this has anything to do with him. Capatalism isn't defined as being "evil" simply because of what the Nazi's did, so neither should communism be defined as "evil" because of what the Soviet Union did. They are both socio-economic philosophies that both get implemented in however good or evil ways the implementors in charge choose. Canderra 04:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I was referring to the Katyn massacre in 1940. Many people have hard times believing that communists were worse than Nazis. See, communists did what they did long after the war. Do you know what they did with with the free Polish government right after the war? They arrested them right after the war, tried them with false accusations and executed. How can you claim we were not invaded by the communists, but by the Soviets? SU was a communist country therefore Poland was invided by the communist. Don't forget they formed communist goverment in Poland that lasted for 45 years (well, the system, not the gov). What the communists did was not only during the years of the war, it was long into the time of "peace".

Norum

My point was Poland was invaded by another country not a socio-economic policy, the idea of a artificial train of thought taking physical form is a tad obsurd. It's the exact same as stating that the atrocities commited by the Nazis were committed by the "Capatalists" rather than the "Nazis".

Unfortunatly, imprisonment and execution of previous leaders by a victor is not at all uncommon after a war. It is still happening today (e.g. Bosnian war, Iraq War and many others) and will likely always occur. I am not trying to justify what they (The Soviet Union) did at all, but it is important to recognise who "they" were and not to over-generalise.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Che Guevara, who wasn't even much of a fan of the Soviet Union anyway. I'm not trying to glorify anything here, but this is all entirely unrelated to communism, let alone Che Guevera. Canderra 17:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NB: Because confusion has once again arisen about whether or not there should be an accent on the "e" of Che, I am reprising this section where the matter was thoroughly discussed. [Original text can be seen in Archive 2.]   Polaris999 18:32, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm amazed to find not one word about whether the spelling is "Che" or "Ché". I've seen the latter in a number of publications, most recently in Famous Last Words (C. B. Ruffin). Yet there is no clarification which it truly is, nor is was there even a redirect from Ché Guevara for those who might think to spell it this way. In my own ignorance, I can't tell if this is a case of English authors ignoring inconvenient accents or the equally peculiar habit of adding accents where they may not be needed. Can someone authoritatively state (preferably with cited references) which is correct? Not only is it a question of how to spell the appropriate Spanish (or Argentinian slang) for "buddy", but it's perhaps more important how Guevara himself (or his buddies) spelled it, as people's names don't necessarily follow their origins. — Jeff Q (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about the spelling might belong in the article Che, but probably not here. I'll add the redirect, though (not that very many English-speakers throw accents into searches). -- Jmabel | Talk 18:39, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Adding accents to monosyllabic Spanish words is pretty unusual. It is usually done only to distinguish two otherwise identically spelled words: for example, "¿Qué dices?" vs. "Lo que me importa…" or "…lo más importante" vs. the (now largely archaic) "mas" as a synonym for "pero". I wouldn't be surprised to see an accent on "¡Ché!" used to get someone's attention, but wouldn't expect to see it on "Che" used as a name. But I'm not a native speaker, and while I'm pretty knowledgable on Argentine Spanish, I'm no expert. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:01, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

The accent he is refering to is called "diacritic" (acento diacrítico); I've never read an accentuated "che". It is a mistake to accentuate that word since there are no other homophones; even in Che Guevara it wouldn't, since the Che is derived from the original. Plober 03:33, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Jmabel. I feel more comfortable leaving it "Che" instead of starting a possibly misguided crusade to add the accent. I can see that this may be a case of little documentation about something that native speakers take for granted, and non-Spanish-speakers are in ignorance about. — Jeff Q (talk) 07:02, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Che, definitely without accent. --Marianocecowski 07:23, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've got a book by el Che (pasajes de la guerra revolucionaria), printed in Cuba, and that uses the spelling without an accent. DirkvdM 13:31, 16 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And correctly so. Here is a bit of background: Historically, monosyllabic Spanish nouns ending in "e" had been accented. Therefore, if you look at one of the peso bills that Che signed while he was President of the National Bank of Cuba, you will see that he accented the "e" in "Che". Circa 1962, the REAL ACADEMIA ESPAÑOLA in Madrid, which sets orthographical and grammatical standards for the Spanish language, issued a ruling to the effect that it made no sense to have an accent on monosyllabic words, except to differentiate between homonyms (such as "te" and "té"), and that therefore, from that time forward, the accent should not be used on the "e" of non-homonymous words. Che immediately adopted the new spelling and his signatures after that date do not have an accent on the "e". Moreover, while he was being held captive in the school room in La Higuera, Bolivia [8-9 October 1967], he noticed that on the blackboard the teacher had written the word "fé" [faith] with the archaic accent on the "e"; when she [Julia Cortés] came into the school room later and they had a conversation, he explained to her about the ruling by the RAE and suggested that she erase the accent from the word so that it would be correctly written (i.e., "fe"), which she did. Polaris999 04:48, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am inserting here a scan of his signature to remove all doubts about this matter ... Polaris999 02:55, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good job Polaris999. I hope it settles the matter also. Good reference to go by.--Dakota ~ 18:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, well done to all who contributed, I have always wondered about the validity of the accent myself. Unfortunatly this doesn't seem to have stopped one or more anonymous users constantly re-inserting the accent but oh well, this article witnesses a lot worse vandalism. Canderra 20:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted the removal of external links. Did not see any discussion recently on this page concerning removal of links so did the revert. Such changes such be discussed first.--Dakota ~ 20:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dakota

I re-reverted your revert but only saw afterwards your explanation here after I have done so. Sorry!

Please look at the history of the guy who originally added his link (200.55.155.193) is constantly link spamming wikipedia with links to his website (nothing else in contribution, just adds his link). I followed him here from another page he keeps adding his links to. Cabanos 22:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually four links were removed in 3 revisions. Not exactly sure what particular link you refer to.--Dakota ~ 01:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to Che's mother, he was actually born on May 14th. She was three months pregnant when she married Che's father, so they pushed his date of birth a month ahead. - Che, Jon Lee Anderson, Chapter 1.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.169.68 (talk)

There is no documented record of Che's mother ever having told anyone this. Anderson repeats a story that was told to him by a woman he identifies as "Julia Constenla de Giussani" (page 9) who he says told him that she had arranged for an astrologer to draw up a chart for Ernesto, and this said Julia is reported to have stated that the astrologer in question told her that Che's mother had told her that he was actually born on 14 May 1928 rather than on 14 June 1928, the latter date being the one that is recorded on his birth certificate and all of his other official documents. Since no one before or after Anderson has ever presented evidence of the alleged falsification, and since Che and all of his family always celebrated his birthday on 14 June, and since the reason for the alleged falsification, i.e. to "avoid scandal", doesn't make sense because Celia and Ernesto (his parents) were quite well known for their total lack of concern as to what others might think of them and their lifestyle, it does not make sense to conclude, on the basis of this one hearsay report and in the face of all of the evidence to the contrary, that Ernesto was born on 14 May.

Nevertheless, the story related by Anderson is summarized in the article's Content Note entitled "Birthdate" as follows:

Birthdate: While 14 June 1928 is Guevara's official date of birth, it may not be the actual date of birth. The official story is that he was born eight months after his parents married; several sources suggest that he was born earlier (the date 14 May is the most prevalent), and that his mother was already pregnant at the time of her marriage.

This Content Note is linked to in the first sentence of the first paragraph, right after the date "14 June 1928".

It was the consensus of all of the editors working on the article just prior to its being nominated for FA status that this was the correct way to handle the matter of the birthdate, and this is the version that was promoted to FA. If you want to read further detail about this subject and how the decision was reached, please consult the Archives (listed at the top of this page). Also, in the future, kindly sign your comments. Polaris999 22:15, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I readded some of the links from the Cuban Ministry of Culture website containing historic videos and images of Che Guevara. They are not spam links and are easily navigated. Please discuss any changes before removal of material. --Dakota ~ 20:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From what I know of the policy of adding external links, non-English links are to be avoided on the English Wikipedia. Exceptions are made when they have information that is not available on any other English language external link or the article itself, which is not the case in this article. However, after digging deeper it would seem that this link in particular can be considered an "official" link seeing how it is hosted at the Cuban Ministry of Culture (I misunderstood what was meant by "cult" in the cult.cu domain) and therefore it should stay.

However, we have now had another Spanish link added (http://www.echeguevara.com.ar). Should this one stay? Earlier there was a Russian and Dutch link that was removed. Should those also be brought back? Cabanos 08:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that consensus has been reached re inclusion of the Che, Guía y Ejemplo site. I do think that Cabanos has directed our attention to a matter that needs consideration: i.e., the desirability of clearly labelling external links to foreign language sites so that readers who do not know the language in question will not click on them assuming that they are in English. To make this differentiation as clear as possible, I have set up a separate sub-section for links to Spanish-language sites within the External Links section, and the same can be done for other languages, as appropriate.

Concerning the site Revista Social "Proyecto Che Guevara" mentioned by Cabanos above, I have removed it because (1) although it purports to be a non-profit site, it is filled with advertisements and (2) my review of it so far has failed to turn up any information not already presented either in the Wikipedia CG article or in the links already included in the External Links section. On the positive side, it would be interesting to have a link to an Argentina-based site, but I am just not certain that this one meets Wikipedia's standards. If you have an opinion on this matter, please present your reasons for supporting or opposing its inclusion here on the Talk page.

I have also removed the newly-added site, Che Guevara Information Archive because (1) it devotes much of its space to commercial advertising, (2) it seems to be seriously out of date and (3) my review of it so far has failed to uncover any information not presented either in the Wikipedia CG article or in the links already included in the External Links section. Again, if others disagree, please present your reasons for supporting its inclusion here on the Talk page.

Concerning the Russian and Dutch language sites referenced by Cabanos, the reasons that they were excluded were, in the first case, that the Russian site continuously caused problems during loading and, in the second case, because none of the editors working on the CG article at the time the link to the Dutch language site was added had sufficient knowledge of the Dutch language to be able to evaluate that site. Here, too, these decisions are open to discussion and could be reversed if the problems mentioned are overcome. Polaris999 15:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have many Cuban friends ....many with families that were either tortured or killed my this thug. I refer you to an article in National Review on December 31, 2004 pp 28-30 "Che Chic" by Jay Nordlinger

It's kind of funny, as I am not from the USA I had not heard of the "National Review" before. Logging onto their website though, the first thing I am greeted with is a quote stating in large letters "There is no solid evidence that we’ve locked the ice caps in to a melting trend." and then the next line of text is a statement from the editors: "The Senate isn’t serious about enforcing the nation’s immigration laws". I think these statements give a clear indication of the political views of that publication. I have not yet read the article you mention but I think it should be treated with about as much scepticism as if it cam from a magazine called the "Communist Review". Canderra 00:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

National Review like New Republic or The Nation is a political journal so it does have an opinion. But it has over 50 years of journalist history that is impeccable....it has fewer incidents of plagarism or straight up made up stories than the NY Times. Also read the essays of Humberto Fontova.

National Review is very notable, just like the above mentioned sources. Also if we are going to use KGB agent/journalist Richard Gott as a source than anything goes. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 00:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Che is repeatedly called a "Marxist" in the course of the article and elsewhere on Wikipedia. As far as I know, Che called himself "Communist", not "Marxist", and "Marxist" is therefore OR. Additionally, his authoritarian politics are more in line with quasi-fascists like Josef Stalin or Mao Zedong than Karl Marx, who influenced anarchist thought. Article should definitely be changed to say "Communist", but I have no doubt there will be opposition so I'm raising the idea here. --Switch 07:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addition to the dicussion: The topic to distinquish between Marxist and Comminist has been discussed before, this from the archives:[1] --Dakota ~ 17:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]