I delete old talk; I answer here; I wish you a merry christmas

If you want to drop me a message, its more likely for me to notice it, if you post it na minha página da wiki portuguesa.

Notice:I am not to be confused with Wing-commander Muriel Volestrangler

Category Dead People Reminder

Que bellos los ojos tuyos! -- Viajero 19:15, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• Gracias! (blushing) Muriel G 13:37, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Muriel, in terms of the Charles, Duke of Orleans, I think that we need to figure out how article on the French nobility should be titled. My opinion is that they should be at Firstname (Surname), frenchnobletitle de Title, rather than Firstname (Surname), Englishnobletitle of Title. But I think a consistent or semi-consistent system needs to be worked out, as we have for the English nobility. So, no, I won't delete the page now, because I don't think it should be moved there. If we can come to some sort of system that says the article should be there, I'd be happy to do so. Perhaps I should open discussion at Wikipedia:Naming Conventions (Names and Titles), or whatever the page is called? My attempt to do something similar for German noble titles there, which was largely ignored, somewhat discouraged me, though. john k 18:52, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear John, i'm afraid i have to disagree with you on this Firstname (Surname), frenchnobletitle de Title, because i rather have the English version, because this is a English Language encyclopaedia. The Duchesse du Berry and the Comte de Anjou s place are in the French wikipedia, as well as the Herzog von Sachsen und der Graf von Pfalz in the German one. When I'm back in Europe, i'll have a look in the Naming Conventions. Muriel G 13:37, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The German titles, I'd agree, are not generally used in English (at least before the abolition of noble titles when they became part of the name). However, for French noble titles, the French titles are very fequently used in English. Certainly for non-royals. We speak of the "Marquis de Lafayette," not the "Marquess of Lafayette." The "Duc de Broglie," not the "Duke of Broglie." Certainly I've never even seen "Count of Provence" and "Count of Artois" to refer to Louis XVI's brothers. Will and Ariel Durant, for instance, use the French noble titles exclusively (including for the Duc d'Orleans). Essentially, different foreign languages have different levels of familiarity in English. The Romance languages are almost certainly the most familiar, and they are also the languages where noble titles are the most similar to those in English. As such, it is common (and increasingly more common) to use the native language titles in Spanish, Italian, and especially French. Where both usages are common, I think we should stick to the native usage. I'd add that Encarta and Columbia use French titles exclusively. Britannica gives both (one in parentheses), and somewhat inconsistently, but seems to prefer the French titles. john k 17:31, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear John, first i am glad you agree with me on the german titles!! Second, I understand your point: you want to follow the more traditional conventions, like the sources you cited (and i suspect that Duke of Orleans and Count of Artois give you the creeps, because you are not used to it). But put yourself into an (meaning not a scholar in History like you, or an interested amateur like me) ordinary user's position, while searching the internet, especially if they dont know French. The use of French titles is confusing (and in my own POV, ugly, but thats beside the matter) and might lead to unsuccessful searches. Anyway, either with the French convention or the English one, we do need a convention. Do you know the opinions of other users? Do you think this deserves a poll? Cheers, Muriel G 14:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As to the general issue, I think my point was that use of the French titles is standard in English, and that the Wikipedia should follow standard English practice (used by other encyclopedias), rather than babying its readers and assuming they'll be confused by the standard way that French noble titles are referred to. I mean, one might just as easily argue that English-speakers will be confused by the use of French or German given names, and that we should translate these into English. Clearly, though, we should have redirects, and we should try to take care to explain the French titles somewhere. I would agree that perhaps earlier titles that are actually associated with rule of a particular region, rather than just being noble titles, should perhaps be treated differently. But I really don't see how using the convention that is generally used in English would be particularly confusing to readers. But perhaps we should take this to a naming conventions page and invite the participation of others. john k 16:05, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've copied our discussion to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles). john k 19:48, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. The whole thing was kind of unfortunate, but what can you do. Best wishes. -- Curps 18:29, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hello Muriel,

You contributed a graph to the article on Wars of the Roses. Apparantly some names on the graph are displayed in white. However, since the background of the graph is white as well they would appear to be illegible. Do you have the original graph or the missing data available?

Nice set of eyes by the way. :)

JeroenHoek 14:22, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well... I have some responsabilities on that figure. I'll change it to something less absurd. Thanks for the compliment. Cheers, Muriel G 17:53, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi... I am completely new to this, so I am not sure if I am doing it right... Muriel, your information on here is completely interesting and I'm putting it to good use filling in some blanks. Thanks for your hard work... I wish you would show your entire face, your eyes are simply captivating... Denny

Hello again, on the List of Byzantine Emperors (well, the talk page at the moment) I have added family relationships to the list...that might help, if you are still thinking about making family trees. What would help even more is a book called "A History of the Byzantine State and Society" by Warren Treadgold, if you can find it - he has family trees for almost every emperor (except the usurpers). Adam Bishop 02:18, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think Norwich's lush popular history of the Byzantine Empire also has family trees, although I'm not certain of that. john k 05:09, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips! I didnt quit, i am just taking a break from family trees and wiki.en. The wiki.pt is about to reach 10,000 articles and i am giving a hand. Muriel G 14:06, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Olá! é bom ver aqui outro portugues (neste caso uma portuguesa) :) - --Cyprus2k1 12:21, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Idem! Mas agora ando mais pela wiki.pt, que anda a precisar de toda a ajuda possível. Estamos quase a chegar aos 10,000 artigos lá e o ambiente geral é bastante mais saudável... Viva Portugal!! (nao sei quanto a ti, mas eu sofro imenso com a bola!) Muriel G 14:06, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Muriel! Just a quick note to express my heartfelt appreciation for your vote for me, as well as your encouraging words of support on my talk page. Wikipedia is a tremendous project, and it is a privilege to be able to play a part in its development. Your encouraging words meant a lot to me, Muriel. Thank you so much. Have a great day, my friend! David Cannon 09:19, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it was me:-) As one who helps out on the Multilingual Statistics page, I keep a sharp eye out for approaching milestones. It is so exciting to see such growth in what was until recently a small wiki, and you have every reason to be proud of reaching ten thousand articles. I'm sorry you feel asleep in front of the computer and missed the milestone! I'm sure, however, that it won't be long before you have even bigger milestones to celebrate - just keep up the tremendous work and you'll be there in no time:-) Congratulations to you and your colleagues on pt.wiki! David Cannon 11:40, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Thanks! Muriel G 11:47, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi Muriel, I wish you weren't leaving, but I can understand how frustrating en: is getting as it grows. There is a lot of madness here, and maybe I am more foolishly optimistic than you, or maybe I am not yet far enough removed from high school to be annoyed by that aspect of it :) Well, good luck with the pt: Wikipedia, and thanks for all your help here! Adam Bishop 13:13, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ditto to what Adam said. We'll all miss you, Muriel. It is thrilling, however, to see that there's now more than enough to do on the Portuguese Wikipedia to keep you busy and I wish you the best. That said, I do hope you'll still show up here for a visit once in a while. I'd rank you in the top 10 contributors whose work I've most enjoyed reading, and it bears repeating that I'll miss you. Be assured that I'm not the only one. Ah, I know ... I'll send you a bottle of wikihol to make you come back! How's that? David Cannon 14:24, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• thanks guys! if everybody was like you, wiki would be a nicer place. drp me a line in pt. if you need something. Cheers, Muriel G 18:15, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Farewell. See you soon.;) -Stevertigo 01:05, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In response to Plato's adminship request, you left the following message:

• I was under the impression that in here, a encyclopedia, people were supposed to have freedom of say what they want and subject themselves to opposing votes. Apparently, wikipedia is turning more and more to hypocrisy. That makes me sad. Muriel G 12:07, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Welcome to the Red Faction!!! You are our grand prize winner, we are proud to accept your membership. Lirath Q. Pynnor

• Fuck, why not? :) Muriel G 21:05, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hurray! Lirath Q. Pynnor

Nice joke. When I stopped laughing, I added the Yorkists. But I didn't have the same font as you, so it doesn't look as good as it might. You might think about redoing it from your sources, if you still have them. See Image talk:Rosas.png for more comments. Gdr 16:26, 2004 Jul 27 (UTC)

Thank you. Gdr 20:24, 2004 Jul 27 (UTC)

I was thrilled by the way you did not quibble at all in your response to 172 on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/User:Plato/red faction (although the by about editing Zionism seemed a bit over the top). Your "the price of repressing fundamental liberties" really resounded for me. Thanks you for cutting through the hypocrisy.

You might find this other VfD nominee, Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/User:IndigoGenius/Micronation of interest; while the case is more borderline, the motivations for listing it seem to be the same, that is, to misuse VfD to "punish" a perceived enemy.

And while that VfD's lister, User:Snowspinner will no doubt win his Request for Administrative powers when voting closes only a few hours from now, you may wish to read this User:Snowspinner/Avala_Evidence and, if it seems as unjustified and contrived to you as it does to me, register a vote here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship#User:Snowspinner_.2854.2F6.2F2.29_Ends_17:06.2C_31_July_2004.

-- orthogonal 06:29, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC) (forgot to sign initially)

• I have no desire of involving myself in discussions, although sometimes, as were the case, i feel that i need to say something. If i was over the top it was nothing to compare with 172. I might say that i was chocked, apalled, younameit, with the use of a personal family tragedy as an argument. As if because of his grandparents he can say whatever he pleases. Fortunately i know personally enough jews to know that emotional blackmail is not common among them. Muriel G 10:25, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • That was not emotional blackmail. You called me a fascist and I stated otherwise. Don't react to people so hysterically and you'll elicit a more positive response. 172 15:23, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • And there you are, being nosy again! :) 172, chill out, please. Imagine what reaction i could give to the above hysterical response of yours... I wont give it. In part i understand your irritation, but i also think that you shouldnt give much atention to Plato or Lir. You know that they live on attention, surely. If I reacted in such way, that's because i find wikipedia too much involved on politics, on petty subjects and petty discussions. By saying this, I'm not pointing the finger to you or anybody else, its just a general feeling i have and makes me jumpy - and thats why i moved to wiki.pt. Your nomination of Plato's page in VfD was absolutely superfulous, and I'm sure that you'll agree with me if you compare it to your other contributions to wikipedia. I've been nosing around myself in your page and i saw that you are a keen reader on politic topics that I'm sure deserve your atention much more than the red faction. I am not a person who likes quarrels and you wont find any user who had problems with me (except perhaps Mr See Warning, but well, one's not perfect), or an argument i pursued just for the sake of it. However I do say what i think and i will continue to do it. That i think was what got me the membership of the redfaction, by the way. Actually what i wrote is my belief that with nomination you were trying to turn wikipedia into a fascist dictatorship, but there is no point in discussing grammar. You are of course free to present a complaint about that. As for the emotional blackmail, i still dont understand whats the point of somebody obviously smart like you in naming family tragedies as arguments. I could also write some sad stories about my father and both of my grandfathers to get simpathy: throughout the history, jewish people got one of the hardest blows, surely, but tragedies are not exclusive to them. You can see White Rose for an excelent example. With wikilove, Muriel G 16:48, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As you have learned, by arguing with 172, the cabal is real. They are a group of petty tyrants with no respect for common decency -- their goal is not to make the wikipedia better, but to make the wikipedia theirs. Lirath Q. Pynnor

• Thats why i moved to wiki.pt :) Muriel G 10:25, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've had a lot of people leave here I considered friends, or at least "comrades-in-arms" -- editors who understood this project, who had the right attitude, and who were good for it. Meaning no disrespect to any of them, I think you're the one I'll miss most of all (unless a mass exodus takes one of a select few who remain). I hope you can return someday, even in limited fashion. If this place does not make someone like you welcome, I fear it will not keep me for as long as I'd hoped. But I will do what I can to make it a better place, and hope I was not a part of the clique problem that led you to leave. I don't know that I am a member of such a group, but then such people are rarely aware of it. If there is anything I could have done to make your time here better, I hope you'll share that information with me. Best wishes to you, wherever you go from here -- may you find peace and friendship. Jwrosenzweig 18:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Dear James :) you are such a nice bloke! Of course you were not a part of the issue and neither is this a big deal. I am still here, although in a limited faction. I'm putting pt links and fiddling with the red faction, above all things (see above for a tiny sample). For the time being I'm pretty happy in wiki.pt, a heaven of peace and contentment, and I have no desire to contribute anymore in english, because i am sick of the generalized view that all wikipedians are equal but some are more equal than others (and if any that more equal should be you!). This slowly got into my nerves over the last few months. I am not upset or angry with anyone, that's just not me, and of course my views might change, once a wikipedian always a wikipedian, but not until i return in October from yet another trip to the southern hemisphere. Please dont you leave: its people like you that make this place nice. And since we are at it, i remembered that i have to vote on something, whenever the voting starts. I truly wish you make it, for the love i have for the project and everything sacred! See you around, with a wikihug, Muriel

Ditto to what James said! Muriel, you have a HUGE number of friends around here who miss you terribly ... who feel that your absence has left a painful gap in the soul of Wikipedia. I know, it can be a tough place sometimes. I sensed a number of months ago that you were feeling the heat, so I deliberately edited a bit in "your" space, to let you know that somebody was around who appreciated and enjoyed your work. I can see that you're a kind-hearted person by nature, and it therefore can't be easy to be around people who are constantly bickering, lobbying, and putting others down. But I don't think they're doing it deliberately, Muriel. I think they're just acting out of wikistress. It's just that after weeks on end of sitting up until 4am on Wikipedia, 3 hours of sleep a night, a hard day at work, then another 4am stunt, day after day, they're not in the best of moods. I have to confess that I've fallen into that trap myself once or twice, but it emphatically isn't the "real me," and I don't think it's the "real them" either, in the great majority of cases. They just need to take a wikibreak for a day or two to destress. I do hope all of us will take your concerns to heart and work hard to make wiki.en the kind of place you'll someday desire to come back to. With the way wiki.pt is growing now, of course, I realize there's enough work there to keep you busy for quite some time - but you'll then need somewhere to relax occasionally! We'll work to make your old home (wiki.en) a place where you can do that, Muriel. When you come back in October, I hope you'll see a few changes that will warm your heart. By the way, I see you're visiting the southern hemisphere. Does that trip take in New Zealand, by any chance? We've got a few Portuguese Porto restaurants here with hot, spicy hamburgers the way you love them (there's one in Auckland's main street, FYI). Have a great day - and a great holiday, my Lusistanian amiga. David Cannon 22:41, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Thanks for your support. I already feel the black clouds fading away :) Muriel G 16:21, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm still pissed cause you called me disturbed and haven't removed it. anthony (see warning) 16:30, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• I'm afraid that i dont feel confortable to respond to comments posted by users who do not trust themselves to keep their minds and (quote) will sometimes modify my comments even after people have replied to them, although i have to respect their decision and apreciate the warnings. Muriel G 17:30, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't feel I've twisted your words; perhaps you mispoke. I mentioned to you that 172 was quite unfriendly, and your response was to state, "Thats why i moved to wiki.pt". How then, have I gone too far by suggesting that 172s unfriendliness is detrimental to the wikipedia? Lirath Q. Pynnor