Che Guevara is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	Che Guevara has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 18, 2006.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 3, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted September 3, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted December 16, 2005 Peer review Reviewed December 19, 2005 Good article nominee Listed March 10, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted April 23, 2008 Featured article review Demoted August 28, 2009 Good article nominee Listed Current status: Former featured article, current good article

Template:VA

This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Socialism Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: Biography / South America / Cold War GA‑class This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history GA This article has been rated as GA-class on the project's quality scale. Associated task forces: /  Military biography task force South American military history task force Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989) Biography: Military / Politics and Government / Core This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Top-importance). This article is listed on the project's core biographies page. Argentina Top‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Argentina, an attempt to expand, improve and standardise the content and structure of articles related to Argentine history. If you would like to participate, you can improve Che Guevara, or sign up and contribute to a wider array of articles like those on our to do list.ArgentinaWikipedia:WikiProject ArgentinaTemplate:WikiProject ArgentinaArgentine Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Cuba Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cuba, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Cuba related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CubaWikipedia:WikiProject CubaTemplate:WikiProject CubaCuba Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Cuba task list: Task list New article announcements: Requests: Ambrosio Cave, Calero Cave, Centella Cave, Cuba and the United Nations, Cuevas de Punta del Este, Cura Cave, Patana Cave, Pluma Cave Stubs: Dollar store (Cuba) Verify: History of Cuba, Fulgencio Batista Update: Nochebuena NPOV: Armando Valladares, Delfín Fernández, History of Cuba Copyedit: Armando Peraza, Bay of Pigs Invasion, Fabio Grobart, Julio Antonio Mella Cleanup: Abelardo Colomé Ibarra, Antonio Maceo Grajales, Bay of Pigs Invasion, History of Cuba, List of Cubans, Máximo Gómez, War against the Bandits Style: Fidel Castro Expand: Cuba–Soviet Union relations, Baseball in Cuba, Religion in Cuba, Havana's International Book Fair, Cuba–Venezuela relations, Antonio Sánchez de Bustamante y Sirven Caribbean High‑importance Caribbean portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Caribbean, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to the countries of the Caribbean on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.CaribbeanWikipedia:WikiProject CaribbeanTemplate:WikiProject CaribbeanCaribbean High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Basque This article is within the scope of WikiProject Basque, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Basque Country, Basque people, Basque language, history and culture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BasqueWikipedia:WikiProject BasqueTemplate:WikiProject BasqueBasque ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. Politics Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Atheism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Atheism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of atheism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AtheismWikipedia:WikiProject AtheismTemplate:WikiProject AtheismAtheism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. For more information and how you can help, click the [Show] link opposite: If you would like to participate, you can edit this article and visit the project page. Quick help Project's main talk page Article layout Links to atheism-related information · List of free online resources Writing about religion · Article development Citing sources · Verifying sources · About original research Assume good faith · Be civil Recent activity Core articles the "Atheism" article Articles recently added to Category:Atheism To do history watch purge Join WikiProject atheism and be bold. Add a userbox to your page ({{User WikiProject Atheism}} or {{User WPA2}}) and attract potential members. Help with articles. See this month's adopt-an-article. Help out with this to-do list. Be consistent Use a "standard" layout for atheism-related articles (see layout style, "The perfect article" and Featured articles). Add Atheism info box to all atheism related talk pages (use {{WikiProject Atheism}} or see info box) Ensure atheism-related articles are members of Atheism by checking whether [[Category:Atheism]] has been added to atheism-related articles – and, where it hasn't, adding it. Maintenance, etc. Find sources for all positions of an article (see Citing sources and atheism references). Try to expand stubs. Ideas and theories about life, however, are prone to generating neologisms, so some stubs may be suitable for deletion (see deletion process). Watch the list of atheism-related articles and add to accordingly. Always write for an encyclopedia. Articles to improve Agnosticism Create Articles on notable atheists Expand an atheism stub Immediate attention State atheism needs a reassessment of its Importance level, as it has little to do with atheism and is instead an article about anti-theist/anti-religious actions of governments. False choice into False dilemma: discuss whether you are for or against this merge here Clarify references in Atheism using footnotes. Secular movement defines it as a being restricted to America in the 21st century. Bolivia Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bolivia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of all Bolivia-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BoliviaWikipedia:WikiProject BoliviaTemplate:WikiProject BoliviaBolivia Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is featured on the Bolivia Portal selected article section. Template:WP1.0

Template:Controversial (history) Template:Pbneutral Template:Notforum Template:Maintained

In the article of his early life, a quote is given where his father talks about supposed "blood of Irish rebels", however this romantic gloss does not match history or facts of Guevara's actual ancestry. Che's "Irish" ancestry is Anglo-Irish and aristocratic (ie - Norman). His ancestor was Patrick Lynch (Argentina), whose family owned Lydican Castle in Galway (his ancestors actually benefited from the confiscation of land from the local Catholic cheiftan). While the concept of his ancestry as some sort of "Gaelic rebel" and famine-lore is popular amongst IRA types, the reality is far more aristocratic. - Rí Lughaid (talk) 04:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Im Irish but my family are all Ulster scots i have irish citizenship and consider myself Irish che is no differnt in this case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.12.128 (talk) 18:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here the article says the English translation is "Until the Everlasting Victory Always", the word everlasting is redundant as there is nothing everlasting in the original Spanish. I think the idea and what he meant is that the revolution/fighting will always go on until victory. I would therefore simply translate as "Always until victory", it doesn't sound as glamorous as the present translation but to me it's truer to what it is said in Spanish. PatrickC (talk) 14:32, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe "Until the Eternal Victory" would be an accurate (more literal) translation, and have changed it accordingly. Your thoughts?  Redthoreau -- (talk) 04:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think this expression is nuanced enough and unclear that we may need citations. I found two Google books Always until victory and Always unto victory. We may have to cite these expressions. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that "Always until victory" or variations thereof is a common translation: Google results. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

"[Che Guevara] as the only other ranked Comandante besides Fidel Castro" - a source needs to be provided for this, because this is an interesting statement. Guevara was certainly seen as being 'on equal terms' with Castro, but I am curious to learn if he indeed was the only one to hold this title of Comandante.

Was Castro's brother not also "Comandante Raúl" and was there not a Comandante Almeida, referring to Juan Almeida Bosque, as well as Comandante Ramiro Valdés? Soviet223 (talk) 17:49, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A well-known Comandante was also Camilo Cienfuegos .Henrig (talk) 21:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Adjusted accordingly, thanks.  Redthoreau -- (talk) -- (talk) 17:57, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

"Former Stasi operative Haydée Tamara Bunke Bider, better known by her nom de guerre "Tania", who had been installed as his primary agent in La Paz, was reportedly also working for the KGB..." as written in this article is unproven rumour which has been refuted by the German authorities who hold the Stasi files from the period and the Russian authorities who hold the KGB files from the period. I suggest this is amended appropriately within this article to reflect these authoritative statemnets and not baselesss rumour. See main "Tania" Wikipedia entry and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1388018/Mother-fights-Che-film-over-lover-claims.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mentionmekindly (talk • contribs) 10:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Adjusted accordingly, thanks.  Redthoreau -- (talk) -- (talk) 17:57, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article is biased and POV and contributes to the whitewashing of a mass murders crimes. Che was responsible for the deaths of women and children under his command, these things did not just happen (the article uses this irresponsible language) HE ORDERED THEM KILLED. A section needs to be added to make sure the reader gets this point. This article gives undue weight to a flattering view of The Butcher of La Cabaña.-- Benjamin 18:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

As with every other article in Wikipedia, you are welcome to propose new content based on and referenced to independent, reliable sources. What would you suggest? HiLo48 (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Benjamin, although you are entitled to your own ideological opinion or WP:POV, that doesn't make it fact. Probably no other issue has been more discussed, researched, and cross-checked with reliable references (from both sides of the spectrum) over the years on this TP than Che's role in the executions at La Cabaña. I would encourage you to utilize the search box on the top of this page to see the dearth of material and past WP:Consensus reached on the topic. Moreover, the article at present utilizes a range of references from his main peer reviewed biographers (i.e Anderson, Taibo II, and Castañeda) and even cross-references these numbers with the information/accusations of the anti-Che U.S.-based Cuban Archive Project (an advocacy outfit that like you believes him to be a "mass murderer") ... see --> reference 104 for a full break down of the numbers.

Now to other specifics of your WP:SOAPBOX post:

[a] - As for your "whitewash" assessment, the article is supposed to reflect the majority of scholarly and published sources, which in this case you would also probably describe as "whitewashed". However our task here is to reflect that reality, not to "correct" or "revise" it.

[b] - You have declared Guevara a "mass murder"(er) and report this as an indisputable historical fact. However, this moniker is not found in the majority of WP:RELIABLE sources per WP:UNDUE. It would be analogous to describing him with the euphemism "freedom fighter", which you actually could source to a number of biographies, but would still be inappropriate from a Wiki pov standpoint. Now it is indisputable that Guevara personally shot individuals during wartime and a "revolution". Anderson notes several (around 10) documented examples of men who were shot personally by Guevara or on his command for a number of "crimes" in the Sierra including desertion, stealing rations, raping a peasant, being an informer (chivato) etc. Anderson also notes the 55 executions at La Cabana carried out in instances where Guevara had the final appellate say on whether to suspend or lessen the death sentences handed down by the 3 person revolutionary tribunals. As not to drag this response on forever, I will point you to a previous archived discussion --> La Cabaña & Executions. With all that said, "mass murder"(er) is a judgment call and matter of opinion. For starters who defines "mass", more than one? However, the article does note that Guevara "unhesitatingly shot defectors", "executed" individuals, and that certain people consider him an "ruthless executioner", and "butcher" etc. These are all acceptable to be made note of in the article, but not as a declarative statement. As an example, President Harry Truman ordered the nuclear incineration of 100,000 + Japanese. But it would be POV to open up his article by describing him as a "mass killer of women and children", because none of the major sources do - see WP:NPOV and WP:MORALIZE. Yet one can still mention in his article the facts surrounding the dropping of the atomic bomb, or mention how some consider that a "war crime", without calling him a "war criminal" or using "atrocity".

[c] - No disinterested or major biography on Che mentions him executing any women during his time as a guerrilla or having any women executed while in charge of La Cabaña. The only writer to originate and repeatedly make this claim of one pregnant woman being shot by Che is the polemical Humberto Fontova, however he would not be a reliable source per WP:VERIFY for an neutral encyclopedia article see ---> Using Humberto Fontova.

[d] - As for Che killing "children", the usual sole accusation of a 14 year old boy being killed by Che originates from a December 28, 1997 letter to the editor of the El Nuevo Herald (Spanish Miami Herald) by the unknown Pierre San Martin (who claims to be a surviving prisoner from La Cabana). The claim had been widely purported again by Humberto Fontova in his litany of Anti-Che articles for Conservative websites, despite the fact that it is not mentioned in the other --> 40 or so Che biographies (which do not utilize the hyperbolic language or have the agenda of Fontova). Now several of the boys in Che's own units during the revolution were 15-16 years old. Many of the (now men) who fought under Che, speak about how many teenagers from the cities flocked to join the revolution and were incorporated into July 26 as Guerrillas. Is it thus plausible that those under 18 years old were executed? Sure. Especially considering the fact that teens under 18 fought on both sides of the conflict. However, by impugning the context of "killing children" (as if Che was shooting up the elementary schools) is false, as even a 16 year old during this time in Cuba in the late 1950's would have been seen as a man for all intents and purposes.

[e] - As for your moniker of him being "The Butcher of La Cabaña", the article currently makes note (in the appropriate Legacy section) of how this epithet is utilized by people like yourself who view Che unfavorably.

Redthoreau -- (talk) 14:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

please, could you clarify the meaning of 'people like yourself'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.40.148.227 (talk) 14:43, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IP 2, sure, the original poster "Benjamin" refers to Che as a "mass murder"(er) and the "The Butcher of La Cabana." And as I say, the article already makes note that there are people out there such as Benjamin and others (i.e. people "like him") who hold this view.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:27, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I apologize for my english; I used to write almost fairly in english, but that was so long ago...

Reference number 1 says that

...one tertiary source, (Julia Constenla, quoted by Jon Lee Anderson), asserts that he was actually born on May 14 of that year. Constenla alleges that she was told by an unidentified astrologer that his mother, Celia de la Serna, was already pregnant when she and Ernesto Guevara Lynch were married and that the date on the birth certificate of their son was forged to make it appear that he was born a month later than the actual date to avoid scandal. (Anderson 1997, pp. 3, 769.)

I looked for the originary source here, but I was surprised to find that the source says a completely different thing:

The horoscope was confunding. If Ernesto Che Guevara had been born on June 14, 1928, as stated on his birth certificate, then he was a Gemini... The Che who emerged from her analysis was a grey, dependent personality... But this was in the early 1960's, and Che was already one of the most people in the world. When the puzzled astrologer showed Che's mother the dismal horoscope, she laughed. Then she confied a secret that sha had guarded closely for more than three decades. Her son had actually been born a month earlier, on May 14... The deception had been necessary, because she was three months pregnant when she married Che's father... A doctor friend falsified the date on the birth certificate, moving it back by one month to help shield them from scandal

Looking for other versions, I found an interesting one in Paco Ignacio Taibo II, Ernesto Guevara, también conocido como el Che, pág. 23:[1] It says that

Existe una tercera versión, que narrará Julia Constenla, quien dirá que Celia le contó "Ernesto no nació el 14 de junio, sino el 14 de mayo. Yo me casé embarazada. Mis tías viejas hubieran muerto de saberlo. Así, apenas casados, nos fuimos a Misiones con mi marido. Y más tarde, cuando estaba por dar a luz, a Rosario, donde me atendió un primo de Guevara."

Translated to english, it says (something like)

There is a third version, told by Julia Constenla, who said Celia told her: "Ernesto was not born in June 14, but in May 14. I married being pregnant. My old aunts would have died if they would have known that. So, just after getting married, we moved to Misiones with my husband. And later, when I was about to give birth, to Rosario, where I was asisted by Guevara's cousin"

So the reference does not say that the story was told by "an unidentified astrologer". It clearly says that the story was told to Constenla by Celia De la Serna herself. There is another reference to Constenla. In Página/12 (a newspaper from Buenos Aires) there was published an interview to Constenla, on February 25, 2005 [2]. In this interview, Constenla says

“El Che nació el 14 de mayo. Sin embargo, fue anotado un mes después, el 14 de junio, para ser presentado como sietemesino, porque Celia de la Serna se casó embarazada, pero siempre quiso ocultárselo a su familia”, asegura la periodista Julia Constenla, autora de Celia, la madre del Che (Ed. Sudamericana), en donde revela el secreto mejor guardado de la familia Guevara. Un secreto que Celia le confió personalmente, a través de una relación que empezó en la primera entrevista con la madre del Che y derivó en una amistad que siguió hasta su muerte, el 18 de mayo de 1965.

Translated to english, it would be something like

"Che was born in May 14. However, he was registred a month later, on June 14, to be presented as born in 7 months, because Celia de la Serna got married when she was pregnant, but she always wanted to hide it from her family," says journalist Julia Constenla, author fo "Celia, la madre del Che" (Ed. Sudamericana), where she reveals Guevara family's best hiden secret. A secret that Celia personally told her, throug a relation that started in the fisrt interview with Che's mother y became a friendship that lasted until her death, May 18th, 1965.

So the information related here is false, that was not a tertiary source, but was somttihng told directly by Celia De la Serna to Constenla. I don't know if the story Celia told to Constenla is true, or even if Constenla is telling a true version of what Celia De la Serna told her. But the reference about the astrologer is a complete misunderstanding about an anecdote that had nothing to be with an astrologer telling anything to Constenla.

I would prefer the information would be changed by a more expert user, or at least someone who actually can write in english, not me. Thankes to anyone that reads this, sorry for the comment's length, and sorry again for my english. User:Marcelo / talk --200.32.116.2 (talk) 17:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stumink / IP 88 (same person), I would dispute your --> added contention that the 20,000 death toll under Fulgencio Batista is "propaganda" and a ""cynical falsehood" (via Miguel Ángel Quevedo) - which I believe to be WP:UNDUE and a WP:FRINGE point of view. Some of the confusion I believe arises because some sources address the civilian murders during the Revolution from 1957-1959 and thus 2,000 deaths - whereas the cited 20,000 killed in the article under Batista (sourced to a 2007 Che biography by German historian & author Frank Niess), is the given number of people killed by Batista's regime collectively during his years in office (1933-1944) & primarily (1952-1959). The 2,000 deaths during the armed insurrection from 1957-59 is often cited by anti-Castro writers as an attempt to call into question the more commonly accepted mainstream 20,000 figure (which was repeatedly echoed numerous times by President John F. Kennedy of all people). For instance, the 1959 United States Senate Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws by the Committee on the Judiciary (digitized online), noted that = "Batista in Cuba was regarded as the butcher of some 20,000 or 25,000 of its finest youth." This matches the belief 10 years later by the 1969 United States National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence which published a report entitled: 'Violence in America: Historical and Comparative Perspectives: A Report' - where on Page 582 it states that = "It is clear that counter terror became the strategy of the Batista government ... It has been estimated by some that as many as 20,000 civilians were killed." Now admittedly many historical events have a death count that is altered over time as more information comes about, however, the 20,000 total has remained consistent in the majority (see Wp:Undue) of sources from 1959 to the present day ...

Some published examples of this include:

• Bolivia, Press and Revolution 1932-1964‎ - Page 347 .... "Batista had been responsible for perhaps as many as 20,000 deaths"

• Controversy Over Cuba‎ - Page 3 (by the D.C. Committee on National Legislation, hardly Pravda or Granma) .... "Some l9,000 to 20,000 Cubans were murdered during Batista’s regime, some were tortured, others bled to death after being castrated"

Lastly, I would point out ---> this short clip from the documentary Fidel: The Untold Story and the section of the clip from [1:03-1:09] right after testimony by Wayne Smith (former head of the United States Interests Section in Havana). Then again as author Abbott Joseph Liebling notes in his 1981 book The Press‎ - Page 267: "On the international scene, the 20,000 shootings by Batista got considerably less space than the 700 by Castro."  Redthoreau -- (talk) 22:44, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The 2,000 figure is well sourced so it should be mentioned as i have numerous sources. The 20,000 figure was cuban propaganda and is not universally accepted. Miguel Ángel Quevedo who owned the most popular newspaper bohemia in cuba stated that this was a made up figure in support of the the revolution. see;http://www.economiaparatodos.com.ar/ver_nota.php?nota=657 He admits in this that the figure is made up by his newspaper. This is a good source from the man who helped make these figures and he admits there false. You should keep the 20,000 figure but also mention the lesser figure of less than 2,000 from rummel and others. This guy admitting this is pretty much fact that the figures are wrong, so it should be mentioned that some claim the figure is wrong like the guy who made the figures. The 20,000 figure is not the only reliable source. There should be a range as there are other estimates.