Talk:Richard Nixon: Difference between revisions
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[[User:Ksk2875]] has twice added an addition of almost 1kB to the article, which deals with the fact that Air Force One, on which Nixon was traveling, changed its call signal at noon on August 9, 1974, the date and time at which Nixon's resignation became effective. The addition seems not germane, especially in a lengthy article like this, and I and another editor have each reverted once. Also, the grammar's not very good, but that could be fixed if the content was important to this article. Thoughts?--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 15:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC) |
[[User:Ksk2875]] has twice added an addition of almost 1kB to the article, which deals with the fact that Air Force One, on which Nixon was traveling, changed its call signal at noon on August 9, 1974, the date and time at which Nixon's resignation became effective. The addition seems not germane, especially in a lengthy article like this, and I and another editor have each reverted once. Also, the grammar's not very good, but that could be fixed if the content was important to this article. Thoughts?--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 15:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC) |
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:Agree, it is a weak trivial addition.--[[User:Fizbin|Fizbin]] ([[User talk:Fizbin|talk]]) 16:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC) |
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Edit suggestion: Only person nomined 5 times
Along with being the only person elected twice to the presidency and VP, Nixon is also the only person nominated five times on national ticket by a major party. This is noteworthy, and should be included in the opening paragraph.
Rodchen (talk) 08:31, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Is there a specific source for that assertion, or would we be making that calculation on our own? By my count, FDR was also nominated five times, once as VP in 1920. Will Beback talk 19:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Both are indeed the only people to five times receive electoral votes.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Edit suggestion: Zhou or Chou but not both
In the section regarding China, sometimes Zhou EnLai and Chou are used interchangably. Please pick either Chou or preferably Zhou, and use it every time.
Rodchen (talk) 08:40, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Edit request: Awkward photo caption
In the 'Legacy' section, the grave-site photo caption states: "The graves of President Richard and first lady Pat Nixon." IMO, by using the informal/uncommon 'President Richard', this is an awkward caption. Wouldn't a better caption be: "The graves of President Richard Nixon and First Lady Pat Nixon." (I am not sure if 'first lady' is supposed to be capitalized or not.) --RedEyedCajun (talk) 18:16, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
The improvement project is under way!
I will be working intensively on the article over the next week (I do not expect to finish in that time) as part of the process to improve it to FA and get it on the Main Page on Nixon's 100th birthday in January 1913. I already have seven FAs on Nixon's career, associates, opponents, and depictions, so it's time to do the main article. I will put the under construction tag on it in the morning.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:07, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- Please drop a bomb on that pop culture section so people won't think that WP is edited by a bunch of 3rd graders :). Brad (talk) 22:37, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- I will probably make it its own article and leave a see also. So far so good. I haven't added images yet but I am done up until 1959.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:45, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- Don't forget the stamp pics. Brad (talk) 23:07, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- I will probably make it its own article and leave a see also. So far so good. I haven't added images yet but I am done up until 1959.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:45, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- Just so anyone who is interested knows, we're on hold so I can go through some files at the Nixon Library (and do an image hunt for pre- and post-Presidential images). I expect to start writing again sometime around July 15, after returning home. With luck, I will have it at a renewed peer review around July 22 or so and am hoping to start a FAC around August 1. Simply because Nixon is a controversial subject, it may take multiple attempts, but that's what the schedule looks like right now.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- Substantively, I'm done. However, it is going to take me hours of work to straighten out all the nitpicky stuff in the references and bibliography, study it for continuity and so forth, and other fun stuff like that, before I feel ready listing it for peer review.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
TCO comments
1. I'm proud of you for working on an article like this with high "school" service as well as high Google notability. (And I know you've done all kinds, done Speer, but this sort of thing makes my heart swell).
2. I'm not sure if I'm getting old, or that is just a great picture, but 73 Nixon looks pretty good in that picture. Not a Herblock caricature.
TCO (talk) 02:41, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- I've only nibbled at it, but I think it will all come together in the end. And yes, that is a really, really good photo.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:45, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Village pump thread
I used this article as an example...to dare disturb the universe...by suggesting raising the penalty box external links higher in article.TCO (talk) 03:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Tempting fate.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:27, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Edit request from Rayrab, 28 June 2011
"his older brother, Arthur, died of the illness in 1933" should read: "his older brother, Harold, died of the illness in 1933"
Rayrab (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Done Verified on Harold's page as well as date listed in previous paragraph in article. Jnorton7558 (talk) 10:12, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely right, my dumb mistake in doing some renovation work on the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:42, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Future Culture
Nixon's head became a regular spoof on tv series Futurama. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.4.78 (talk) 10:23, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Racism
Should there not be a seperate section for Nixons racist views his anti semitic remarks are included in this article. Also his 'enemies list' contained many black congressmen and congresswoman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Gaon (talk • contribs) 22:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Created new article on US Supreme Court case = Time, Inc. v. Hill
I have created a new article on the U.S. Supreme Court case, Time, Inc. v. Hill. Feedback and especially help with additional research would be appreciated, at the new article's talk page. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 00:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Missing information
Why has an complete section of this article been removed i am talking about Richard Nixon's second term a long with the photo of him being sworn in for a second time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack11111 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Editing queries
Wehwalt, Malleus, Harry, et al., please feel free to revert any change I make that you don't like. Let me put a proposed c-e of the first para to you, since I'm not sure about a few of my suggestions:
- Richard Milhous Nixon (January 9, 1913 – April 22, 1994) was the 37th President of the United States, serving from 1969 to 1974, and was the only president ever to resign the office. During his presidency, he opened up US relations with the People's Republic of China, negotiated a cease fire that ended
USAmerican involvement in the Vietnam War, andheachieved détente with the Soviet Union.HisNixon's second term saw increasing controversy over the Watergate scandal.WhenHis remaining political support evaporated when it became clearthat Nixonhe had been aware of and had approved hisunderlings'subordinates' efforts to cover up the scandal,his remaining political support evaporated,leading to his resignation on August 9, 1974. In his final years,he became a prolific author and elder statesman, [to an extent repairing his reputation ("to an extent" is a bit vague, and did he really repair his reputation by authoring? Was it prolific? If he had ghost writers, this would be an overstatement I think—consider removing this last phrase?)].
By moving "His remaining political support evaporated", have I distorted the meaning?
Can I make some of the images a bit bigger? Tony (talk) 10:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think you've distorted the meaning and you can adjust the images. I am inclined to leave the bit about repairing reputations in, simply because he did, certainly not in everyone's eyes, but enough to take the harsh edge off Watergate when he died. I can find no indication Nixon used ghostwriters; certainly he had competent researchers but I don't think they did writing for him. He was very much writing for his place in history. Yet he did not come all the way back, I've found one reference that points out, yes, Nixon had Bill Clinton listening to him, but he was never used as a channel for diplomacy in the way that Adlai Stevenson was.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to jump in here -- awesome work being done to the article, and kudos to Wehwalt and others. I had some concerns about the way that the lead was re-worked, and made changes to reflect the following:
- --The first paragraph was much too lengthy and put way too much undue weight on Watergate. Richard Nixon served in public life for 30 years -- Watergate made up roughly two of them, and Nixon's role in Watergate made up much less than that. Everything about Watergate is still debated among historians, and this historian has taken it upon himself to research Watergate as well over the past several months, but that's a conversation for a different place... In any event, the first paragraph should be very general and outline why he was famous and what makes him a noteworthy figure to deserve a Wikipedia article. The new first paragraph reflects that.
- --I noticed that there was nothing about the Hiss Case in the lead. The Hiss Case defined Richard Nixon in the late 1940s, and it was that which elevated him to national prominence and caught the eye of Dwight Eisenhower -- which led to him being nominated for VP and furthered his career. I would say that that is much more important than the previous line about red-baiting, at least for the lead.
- --The line about the Pentagon Papers is, first of all, poorly integrated into the rest of the text; in other words it doesn't flow. And it places undue weight on an event that may or may not have led to Watergate. I am also unsure of the purpose of including it in the lead, which is meant to be a very general overview of the subject as a whole; it's all well and good to write about it in the body article, but the lead should be very general facts.
- --His re-election was not darkened by the Watergate scandal. Despite Democratic efforts during that election year to tie him to directly to the break-in and a case brought by the DNC against the CRP, the public overwhelmingly re-elected him. Even the media really wasn't pursuing it. It was a nonevent until January/February 1973, during which the burglars were convicted and Congress established the Ervin Committee to begin to investigate. But it really never had any impact on his re-election.
- --The last paragraph changes were mostly just rewording, and adding more about Watergate where it should be added.
I look forward to reading the rest of the article very soon! Again, excellent work. Best, Happyme22 (talk) 17:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think at least a mention of his resignation should be in the first paragraph.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed -- the first paragraph of the lead now reflects that. Happyme22 (talk) 03:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think at least a mention of his resignation should be in the first paragraph.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Though I support the overwhelming majority of the edits thus far, and have just supported the article for FA, I do have one major concern, in regard to the detail the lead places on Watergate. It read: "During 1973 and 1974, a continuing series of revelations about the Watergate scandal diminished Nixon's political support. In early August 1974, an audiotape of conversations between Nixon and his aides was released which demonstrated the President's knowledge and approval of the cover-up; he lost much of his remaining support, and he resigned in the face of almost certain impeachment and removal from office."
First of all it's undue weight when compared to the lack of detail in regard to his foreign and domestic policies. Second, it implies something that is historically inaccurate, which is that the President approved a cover-up on his own; in actuality, the "smoking gun" came from an idea by John Dean, White House counsel. On the morning of June 23, he suggested to Haldeman that the President call on the CIA to halt the FBI investigation of Watergate, falsely invoking CRP Director and close Nixon friend John Mitchell as supporting the idea. Haldeman relayed the idea to the President, who agreed to it, but took it back on July 6, only about two weeks later, and instead told Acting FBI Director Pat Gray to proceed with a full investigation. That the President ordered a cover-up is a myth propagated by the harsh political climate of the Watergate-era and the sheer happenstance that documents and accounts that prove it was Dean's idea had not yet come out.
In any event and whatever the reason, the lead places too much undue weight on this matter. I have reworked it to something I hope we can all agree on. If the reader has an interest in Watergate, much like I do, he/she can scroll down to the Watergate section or go to any of the Watergate articles (which I plan on tackling soon when I have more time...).
Also, what happened to the part in the introduction of the lead about Nixon being the only person nominated 5 times on a major national party ticket, only POTUS and VPOTUS to be elected to 2 terms? I think it's important stuff to document the rarity and longevity of his political career. Again, though, fabulous work! Happyme22 (talk) 01:12, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'll look at what you've done. I felt that the statistic looked a bit trivial in isolation; I do put in a mention late in the article that he was nominated by five out of the previous six conventions (discussing 1976). I'm open to adding more but this being FAC I am also not rocking the boat!--Wehwalt (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'm looking for a broader way of relating Nixon to his times than just stating the bare statistic.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'll look at what you've done. I felt that the statistic looked a bit trivial in isolation; I do put in a mention late in the article that he was nominated by five out of the previous six conventions (discussing 1976). I'm open to adding more but this being FAC I am also not rocking the boat!--Wehwalt (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
missing refs
- Can't find refs for Zhai, p. 136; Schulzinger, p. 413; Morris, p. 193; Boger, p. 6. – Ling.Nut (talk) 02:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for going through it. They are there now.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
His homophobia
I see nothing is said here about that despite it being well documented [1] [2] [3]. "Good article". Posh. What's the matter, is he still alive and protected by the BLP squad? FuFoFuEd (talk) 20:21, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think we have to be careful not to judge yesterday's politicians by today's standards. Nixon's views on gays were not unusual for his time.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
- FuFo: instead of showing up with attitude, just edit the article.--Fizbin (talk) 21:43, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
- If you do, please make sure you reference it appropriately in the style in the article. Perhaps you won't, but I asked.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Lead
I saw that there was some debate about the lead. For what it's worth, I do think it's good to have a cursory summary of the subject's overall significance in the first paragraph, rather than just a list of his jobs. I like what was done with these presidential articles (FA and GA respectively), for example:
Rutherford Birchard Hayes (October 4, 1822 – January 17, 1893) was the 19th President of the United States (1877–1881). As president, he oversaw the end of Reconstruction and the United States' entry into the Second Industrial Revolution. Hayes was a reformer who began the efforts that would lead to civil service reform and attempted, unsuccessfully, to reconcile the divisions that had led to the American Civil War fifteen years earlier.
George Washington (February 22, 1732 [O.S. February 11, 1731] – December 14, 1799) was the dominant military and political leader of the new United States of America from 1775 to 1799. He led the American victory over Great Britain in the American Revolutionary War as commander-in-chief of the Continental Army in 1775–1783, and presided over the writing of the Constitution in 1787. The unanimous choice to serve as the first President of the United States (1789–1797), Washington presided over the creation of a strong, well-financed national government that stayed neutral in the wars raging in Europe, suppressed rebellion and won acceptance among Americans of all types. His leadership style established many forms and rituals of government that have been used ever since, such as using a cabinet system and delivering an inaugural address. Washington is universally regarded as the "Father of his country".
You get an immediate sense of the dominant themes of the article—the historical backdrop, the major accomplishments, the legacy—in just a few sentences. They go into detail in the subsequent paragraphs. I think this goes along with the "brilliant prose" quality. Not all the presidential FAs/GAs follow this design, of course. Just my two cents. —Designate (talk) 02:47, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for your thoughts and for the work on the article I see you've done. Personally, I believe that the lede paragraph should be the capstone of the article in the manner you suggest. However, I see the current state of the lede as a compromise between those who feel a heavier emphasis should be made on Nixon's difficulties in office, and those who feel a passing mention of Watergate is more than sufficient. I'd like to lay this aside until after the FAC closes, if possible.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:45, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I kept this out of the FAC so it wouldn't be an issue there. —Designate (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for that. Managing this article can be like the classic running back and forth across a tilting floor.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:38, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I kept this out of the FAC so it wouldn't be an issue there. —Designate (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
"Succeeded by" linkless
I just noticed that, as of now, the link to Gerald Ford's article is missing in the info bar to the right. It should be fixed for completeness. Arobicha (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for your eye for detail! Actually as Ford is linked as VP, it isn't necessary to have a second link as Nixon's successor, given that they are within a few lines of each other. That would be overlinking, I guess. It's not the sort of thing I would revert if someone did it, probably.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Questionable addition
User:Ksk2875 has twice added an addition of almost 1kB to the article, which deals with the fact that Air Force One, on which Nixon was traveling, changed its call signal at noon on August 9, 1974, the date and time at which Nixon's resignation became effective. The addition seems not germane, especially in a lengthy article like this, and I and another editor have each reverted once. Also, the grammar's not very good, but that could be fixed if the content was important to this article. Thoughts?--Wehwalt (talk) 15:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
- Agree, it is a weak trivial addition.--Fizbin (talk) 16:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)







