Most of the content of this page is from Elst's homepage at http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/ Imc 22:57, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It is impossible to speak of K. Elst without mentionning the very controversial aspects of his writings. I have added a few sentences, with a general reference, and added a link in the External links which help to better contemplate the rather particular point of view that K. Elst represents. AlexOriens 7, Jan 2006.

Yes, but Wikipedia is not the place for original research. René Guénon's (1886-1951) "Introduction Générale à l'Etude des Doctrines Hindoues" is rather irrelevant for a biography of Elst. I don't think he made links between the israeli-palestinian conflict and Ayodhya or else please provide sources that Elst makes links between Ayodhya and the israeli-palestinian conflict. Your other assertions like the conspiracy theory of a vast campaign are not npov either. The link you added is a internet forum discussion from a partisan website.

The sentences I added are not from any original research stuff. I just mentionned the controversies about Elst. René Guénon citation is on the contrary extremely relevant, not for a biography of Elst (I never said that, and it is not in any "Biography" section), but to understand the general setting of someone's referring to the founder of the Arya Samaj doctrine. The links made by Elst between the israeli-palestinian conflict and Ayodhya are from his book "Ayodhya: the case against the temple" which has a chapter 8 entitled: "From Ayodhya to Nazareth". And the rest is not about "conspiracy theory" but just about facts. However, I admit to suppress that latter part, as it is a matter of controversy. The link I added is not an internet forum: it is a a collection of mails between Elst and a famous Indologist, R. Zydenbos. I admit we can discuss about how to make addings and modifications about Elst's section in Wikipedia, but it is impossible to deny the controversies about K. Elst. AlexOriens 7, Jan 2006.

AlexOriens 8, Jan 2006. Hello. Without any intention to focus and insist, I have to say thay the controversies about K. Elst are not only about Hinduism in itself, but also on his rather particular and politically oriented "views" on the Hindu/Muslim problems in India. The sentence I added about the Ayodhya/Nazareth link is not an invention of myself, it comes directly from Elst's writings (see above). Some events involving Hindus and Muslims in India are interpreted by Dr. K. Elst and other few people in a very specific way and they serve, among other things, as a basis for a so-called "rewriting of Indian history", which is of very controversial nature, and, in fact, very controversed by many Hindus themselves and also by the vast majority of Indologists. Hence I believe that a sentence must be added on that subject, because that subject made an important part of Dr. K. Elst's "works" in a recent past. If the sentence I added about the Ayodhya/Nazareth link is not the best for a wikipedian, then may be we can try to find another sentence if you want, but, in an article on Elst, the subject cannot be hidden.

Since when is René Guénon an authority on Hinduism? Elst's works are relatively free from political bias. He writes truthfully about communalism and is critical of the political establishment in India, including the Sangh and Congress governments. "I don’t need to belong to ... any specific ideological categories in order to use my eyes and ears."

You can add as many quotations of Elst as you want, that does not change in any manner the general ambiance of Elst's writings. I am not saying that Elst is linked to a particular political movement, it does not matter in fact, I do say that his opinions take place in a framework that has a strong political bias. Wikipedia is an encyclopedy, and as such, in it, we can contemplate the origin of ideological movements. Can you understand the difference ? Elst's books and articles speak by themselves, whatever rectifications Elst might add to simulate his views are not biased. And, on Hinduism, yes, I'm sorry but Guenon's "Introduction..." is infinitely much more valuable, and of a very different nature, by the way. You will note that I don't mention Guenon here about Hinduism in general, I just mention a chapter of his "Introduction..." ("Vedanta westernised") to help better understand in what current Elst's influences take place. AlexOriens 12, Jan 2006.

Elst, through his writings, is actually attempting to detract Hindu revivalists from taking a non-secular course. He affirms a thoroughly secular approach in his works. I seriously doubt that encouraging this impartial (i.e. everyone is equal under the law) attitude can be considered politically biased. By this, you are claiming that Elst is unreasonably critical or prejudiced. According to this logic, Martin Luther King is also biased for having promoted equality. You are incorrect in claiming that Elst "is linked to a particular political movement". Perhaps you should mention which movement this is? Writing books does not make him part of any movement or ideology. This article is not about Hinduism, so mention of Guenon's book (or a chapter of it) does not belong here in the first place. I (as of now) fail to understand how this book on "Hindu Doctrine" from 1921 would shed any light on why Elst would write specifically about communalism (and Ayodhya), which seems to have reached a peak 70 years after Guenon's book. I haven't read this, so I encourage you to post excerpts showing these "currents" which shape Elst's "influences". Hopefully these will show if there is anything that substantiates these allegations. At any rate, Elst has made it clear that he is not a Hindu and most of his writings don't go into too great detail about Hindu doctrines.

1- You allowed yourself to change my answer by deletting a sentence of it: "linked to a particular political movement" and, after that, pretend that I said that Elst is actually linked to a political movement, which exactly the contrary of what I wrote. I will not comment this way of doing but let me warn you that everything in Wikipedia is registered and that by doing so you did make a patent fraud, and the clues that you actually made a fraud cannot be cancelled. You should learn Wikipedia's basics before tempting at cheating with it. You made your fraud under the IP address 220.237.243.31 which is DNS-converted into the name 220.237.243.31.optusnet.com.au, a particular server in Australia. The evidence of your fraud is registered in Wikipeda under the name: "Revision as of 01:24, 13 January 2006 220.237.243.31".

- Not 100% sure how this happened, but I must've cut out your text. Sorry. If you go back and check, you will see I have also edited out some of my own language and might have mistaken your line for my quotation. However, if I wanted to "fraud" I wouldn't have quoted your original statement. I think you're overreacting, I also know how Wikipedia functions. An embarassing mistake though. - Now that I've looked over the edit history, I realize I might've hit enter while applying cut and paste to import the quote into my reply. This has upset me though, because the last thing I wanted was to be accused of this. Once again, my apologies.

2- So before you modify my answer, I did wrote: "I am not saying that Elst is linked to a particular political movement, it does not matter in fact" which should answer the first part of your "honest" interrogations.

3- For your question about Guenon, let me remind you what I wrote (and this time you did not delete it, which lends me to think you undergo serious problems in reading people's quotations in a non-distorted way whenever you don't attempt at modificating at people writings): "You will note that I don't mention Guenon here about Hinduism in general, I just mention a chapter of his "Introduction..." ("Vedanta westernised") to help better understand in what current Elst's influences take place".

4- Yes, Ayodhya events comes 70 years after Guenon's book, but this is not the point here. Try to exercize yourself in findind how typical writers of what is described in "Vedanta westernised" appear in Elst writings. That wouldn't be too difficult, if you read the chapter I mentionned. The quotations you are asking for are entirely in Elst productions.

5- After the fraud you made that I reported in 1), let me tell you that I doubt you should attempt any modifications of what I write here or in Elst's article in Wikipedia. AlexOriens 13, Jan 2006.

- I don't totally disagree with your points, but asked only for you to prove them by posting excerpts from the book. Since you haven't, I'll try to get access to it before we continue this discussion.

I will post what you ask for very soon. In the meantime it will serve for others authors that make use of Elst's writings, like Gauthier. AlexOriens 13, Jan 2006.

- My purpose behind editing this article was only to weed out any false assumptions about Elst and his work. The edited article mentions "a stream of thinking not devoid of political motives". This implies that Elst himself may not be politically motivated, but this stream (i.e. thought current) is. Hence, this is what I meant by you appearing to link Elst with a movement or ideology. On one hand, (you and I appear to agree) Elst is personally unattached to any movement. But then you say his writings are linked to a movement with a political bias. I find this perplexing , since his works (or the stream of thinking his works are a part of) cannot be linked to any movement if Elst himself isn't linked to it. Anyway, I have no objection to the paragraphs you've added as long as they're true. That's why I'd asked for a deeper explanation of the paragraphs and then for proof of their validity. I think we're done for now, but I'd definitely like to know more about the "Vedanta westernised" chapter.

I accept your apologies and I admit that you cut my sentence by mistake. I will post very soon the references you ask. AlexOriens 13, Jan 2006.

AlexOriens 15, Jan 2006. Here are the references and comments you requested. Firstly, let me notice that I don't agree with you on the fact that Elst is (or is not) personnally linked to a particular political movement. I just said that Elst's personnal political involvement does not matter in the type of questions we are discussing, and it is only Elst's concern, not ours. The most important point is to understand the context of Elst's writings: someone can display political extremism in books or articles, without being personnaly engaged in a particular extremist movement, for obvious reasons of discretion. Let us remark that Elst's writings are published by a Delhi publisher which strongly advocates for the far right. To my opinion, that clearly indicates the political bias that we might found in Elst's works. However, we will find such bias by a direct inspection.

Now let's go into the details. Elst's works and interests fall into the following categories:

1- the "Aryan Invasion Theory" debate,

2- The Ayodhya events and "communalism" problems in India,

3- Strong anti-Islamic propaganda through the use of "secularism", and, in the same vein, but to a lower extent, psychological considerations about Jesus and Christianity.

4- A particular standpoint on Hinduism through the interest on the so-called "Hindu revivalism".

I will not comment on another field that interests Elst, according to Elst's own declarations: european neo-paganism and the New Age movement, although it may give other interesting indications of the connections between apparently different ideological currents.

The "Aryan Invasion Debate" is of a very special nature. It has never been considered in India and Hinduism, through all its long history, but only in very modern times. "Swami Dayananda Saraswati was perhaps the first to dispute the Aryan myth" (Michel Danino and Sujata Nahar, "The Invasion That Never Was" -Michel Danino is an author very close to Elst's views-). So where stands the basis of such a debate ? According to Elst himself, this new "debate" originates from Dayananda Saraswati and others. In other words, Elst, who presents himself as a strong supporter of Hindu "revivalism" has to admit that this question has been, during more than 5 millenaries, of no interest for the vast majority of Hindus. That is quite right: the question is rooted in a political agenda that originates, among others, from the creator of Arya Samaj. This is why I say that Elst views inherit from such an ideological ambiance. Please consider the importance of the AIT for Elst and other people that share the same ideological foundations: the thing is merely political in nature. On the "revivalism" side (a topic that interests Elst at most), here again we find most of Elst's influences: "This 'revivalism' is not a recent phenomenon but began in the early stages of the British rule of India by groups like Arya Samaj and Brahmo [sic] Samaj under the leadership of influential reformers like Vivekananda, Dayananda Saraswati and Swami Shraddhanand. Nor is this revivalism limited to those within the Sangh Parivar or other similarly oriented organizations. According to Elst "the most interesting formulations of Hindu revivalist thought have been provided by individuals outside the said organizations, from Bankimchandra Chatterjee and Sri Aurobindo to Ram Swarup , Sita Ram Goel and their younger friends". (p.584) (source: Koenraad Elst--Sangh Parivar's Apologist by By A. Khan, http://communalism.blogspot.com/2003_03_01_communalism_archive.html).

Incidentally, on the anti-Islamic side of Elst's stance, we find another reference to the founder of Arya Samaj. Other references to Dayananda Saraswati are easily found in Elst's writings, so we can say, at least, the the founder of Arya Samaj lies at an important place in Elst framework: "Thus, Swami Dayananda Saraswati's Satyartha Prakash ("Light of Truth", 1875), probably the very first Hindu writing to polemicize against Christianity and Islam, has interiorized some of the prophetic-monotheistic categories upheld by Christian preachers[...] But Dayananda at least took the trouble of studying and criticizing Christian and Islamic scriptures in detail, and of showing that there was much "anti-human" and "lacking in spirituality" in them [...]. By contrast, later Hindu spiritualists like Vinoba Bhave, the Ramakrishna Mission, and numerous Swamis and secularists, have merely memorized a handful of goody-goody points from the Bible and the Quran, and hold these up as proof that "Hindus have a lot to learn from them", or that "all religions essentially say the same thing". This nauseating sentimentalism has by now become an unquestionable dogma, except among those anti-Hindu secularists who insist that there is a radical difference after all [...]" (source: "Ban this book, by K. Elst, "http://www.bharatvani.org/books/foe/ch15.htm). Also, quoting Elst himself: "The first detailed criticism of Islam, and in particular of the Quran, was written by Swami Dayananda Saraswati, founder of the Vedic reform movement Arya Samaj in 1875. He mainly lambasted the contradictions, irrational beliefs and inhumane injunctions in Islamic scripture" (K. Elst, "Wahi: the Supernatural Basis of Islam").

From the previous excerpt, see how a mere statement on the fundamental unity of the essence of different religions (a truth which is of intellectual order, not of psychological character) is interpreted by Elst as "nauseating sentimentalism".

Consequently, we can easily find what I called "the ideological ambiance" that serves as a basis for Elst, and which is precisely the one described by René Guenon in his above-mentionned book.

About Elst's comments on "revivalism", the following reference contents detailed proofs of Elst's patent lies and ideological bias: "Koenraad Elst--Sangh Parivar's Apologist" by A. Khan http://communalism.blogspot.com/2003_03_01_communalism_archive.html. Khan's point is substantiated by historical evidences carefully deleted by Elst.

Now on Elst's secularism standpoint that you mentionned. Once again, it suffices to cite Elst himself to get acquainted with his use of secularism as a weapon to dissimulate other motives: "But now, the historical evidence has definitively been verified. After every single historical and archaeological investigation had confirmed the old consensus, the secularists have now been defeated in the final test. The deceit turns out to be their own. Their lies stand exposed and recorded for all to see. Their strategy to sabotage peace and justice in Ayodhya was based on history falsification. With all the blood on their hands, they have disgraced the fair name of secularism. Henceforth, we should be kind enough to ignore them except to hear the confession of their sins. Ideas have consequences, and so do lies. Before the “eminent historians” and other militant secularists are called up to purgatory, they would do well to clear their conscience by offering restitution to the scientists and Hindus they have smeared. And by begging forgiveness from the families of the Hindu and Muslim victims of riots triggered by a controversy that could have been old history already by 1989, had there not been the secularist obstruction.'" (K. Elst, "Ayodhya, the Finale -- Science versus Secularism in the excavation Debate", chapter IV).

In other words, as long as secularism substantiates Elst's point, it is of value. If not, let's reject it. But it is not "universal" secularism that is important to Elst: "To a secularist in the Western tradition, the whole Ayodhya controversy was a non-issue". Hence, according to Elst, secularism is geographically valued. On the Ayodhya affair, we can't rely on secularism. This is why we can say that the secularist argument is just a shadow curtain used by Elst to hide considerations of another order. Here is another reference on Elst's curious use of "secularism": good against Islam, bad for the study of "communal" problems: "The fundamental mistake of Indian secularism is that Hinduism is put in the same category as Islam and Christianity. Islam and Christianity's intrinsic irrationality and hostility to independent critical thought warranted secularism as a kind of containment polic" (source: Bharatiya Janata Party vis-a-vis Hindu Resurgence - By Koenraad Elst p. 9-142). Also, on the use of secularism, here is what Elst writes in "Ayodhya and After: Issues Before Hindu Society" "The most important opponents of Hindu society today are [...] the interiorized colonial rulers of India, the alienated English-educated and mostly Left-leaning elite that noisily advertises its 'secularism'."

Such a sentence should also give a clear indication on Elst's political preferences, according to a question you raised above, and should definitively be called as an answer to people who make the affirmation that Elst is "politically unbalanced", which is an enormity regarding Elst's ideological references. Also, same reference: "The two enemies of this effort ["Indian pride"] are the pseudo-secularist morbidity that glorifies the destroyers of Hindu culture, and discourages its study altogether..."

As a matter of fact, the real greatness of India rests in its long tradition of true Hindu Spiritual Masters, from the original Rishis period through Sankaracarya, Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, up to the present times with Nisargadatta Maharaj and others. Each of them being aware the real Unity veiled under the mantle of the various religions.

In conclusion, Elst's stance suffer from very partisan and ideological bias, and it is important to warn readers in a non-partisan encyclopedy like Wikipedia. AlexOriens 15, Jan 2006.

User:vkhaitan I myself have read various books by Koenraad Elst. Interesting to current context, I have read

1. Aryan Invasion Theory - UPDATE
2. Psychology of Prophetism- A secular Look at bible .

Both the book are available on the web, as far as I remember. I think, this is quite easily acknowledgeable that third party comments over any issue is not good evidence to put forth. We should analyze things not based upon some commentary by some author, but by direct inspections in the books and articles written by koenraad elst. The criticisms of Dr. Koenraad Elst are :-

1. His views are in sync with special type of ideology stance of Hinduism. 2. The ideological stance have political motives(and this is important to note on wikipedia of political motives) 3. His view about islam/christianity is biased and he is partial towards secularists idea. 4. more .....

I would reply to specific allegation of "link to political motives". Basically Koenraad Elst is in sync with Hidutva side in ongoing conflict between communist historians and nationalist/hindutva historians. I do not link Hindu historian wave to any kind of political motives, in the same vein as I do not link communist historians to any kind of political motives. Here the word "politcs" is being used in literal sense instead of as a metaphor(the metaphor means "saying something else, intending something else"). This is an intellectual battle. The nationalist side sees the current aryan invasion theory as a colonial imposition to malign their glorious past. This is an open fact that British did really do this intentionally. But what is right and what is wrong in aryan invasion theory, that is to be determined still. The wikipedia article has nothing to do with that debate. Still I give some clue to understand the Koenraad's intentions. Ongoing archeaology and use of latest technologies has given ample amount of evidence of Aryan native theory. Because of lack of any kind of evidence for invasion, there are no takers remained of Aryan Invasion theory. Communists now promote "Aryan Migration Theory". Where as Nationalist historians promote "Out of India Theory"(aryan native theory). All the evidences only points towards Aryan native version(the latest entrant in the mounting evidences is genetic studies, not done by nationalist historians of course ;-) ), except one which is still troubling the native aryan version. That is linguistic aspect. The linguistic relationship between Indo european lanugage points towards Proto-Indo-European language existing prior to vedic sanskrit, which is not known to be existing anywhere in the world currently. These are speculations and many Hindu historian(e.g. NS Rajaram) have debunked this objection on the basis of the fact that it is mere speculation and in the past these speculations have proved many times wrong(A good example of that is linearb script). Because there are other archeological,astronomical and comparative civilization studies in favour of OIT/ANT. NOw the most important point is..... Koenraad Elst is totally against debuking LInguistic arguments by Hindu Historians. His opinion is that so many linguistic studies and their expert cant be wrong totally. In his book, He lashes upon both camp(hindu/communist) for acting as if they have successfully conquered all the difficulties of their theory.

sadly, ideological battle of hisotry has turned into political gamut too. Communist historians have always been dominant in History circle, hence they had power to push their standpoints(if you had experience of conditions of Delhi University and JNU, you would have understood it better). So politics is also being utilized for pusing own standpoint. But, the bottomline is that politics may have been involved in pushing standpoint, but not the motive.

Second thing about islam, he may have some factual inaccuracy(although I dont know any), but blaming directly of "carefully deleting the facts' is too much of blame in any context. His all psychological standpoint about prophetism is his opinion and analysis, but the fact is that Quran and Hadis shows political base of how islam has evolved.

About word secular, it is really disappointing that you cant even understand the two types of secular word he is using. In one case of secular, where he is talking positively, he is using it in its real sense. In second type, where he is opposing, he is using it in sarcastic tone. The reason is that muslim appeasement and opposition of hindu cause is being always done in the name of "secularism" And there are always so much of allegation of communalism on hindu-side of affair. Hence "secularism" word is used many many times as sarcastic tone and many times it is just a synonym of pseudo-secularism.

There are many allegation on Elst, I dont buy those arguments too. But for the case of defaming words on Wikipedia, I think this much os enough. In fact, I want to change the tone of whole para, currenlty I want immediately of "political" word to be removed. Wikipedia is not about controversial arguments to be ushered. (8 march 2006)