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Histroy - Second world war

The second paragraph is clearly biased and had dubious sources, I hope someone can verify source 49 and 52, as for Dimitrije Bogdanovic, how on earth can nationalist be a reliable source, it should at least be written in the form "according to...", personaly I have never heard of such a declaration being made by Mustafa Kruja --Cradel (talk) 01:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is Kosovar police in the north

Assailants throw hand grenade at police station in Kosovo's tense north — So how long Kosovo will still be treated in the article as a mere "disputed territory, partially-controlled…" instead of a country?--201.81.201.75 (talk) 03:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

True [1] [2][3]-- LONTECH Talk 22:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this article is lacking in neutrality and fairness, and it is a shame on the Arbitration Committee which does nothing but preventing editors from making the just edits. The introduction must say that Kosovo is a state that is partially recognized and that Serbia refuses to recognize it. THAT'S IT. it's very simple, if there is a dispute, then the introduction MUST be inclusive, and the dispute itself shall be represented in the article in terms of information, not in terms of one-sided truth. shame! Maysara (talk) 01:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So true, this article is overly pro serbian. And this is due to a biased admin with an agenda who calls everyone an albanian nationalist when people try to change this. Look in the history and you will find his name. As long as this admin is not blocked from this article nothing will change. --188.99.179.90 (talk) 12:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please tell me his name and I shall (Personal attack removed)[4] Maysara (talk) 17:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Meeso, perhaps instead of throwing around death threats, you make a suggestion of how to improve balance? The article already says Kosovo is partially-recognized, so I don't really see what you are complaining about. Obviously the article will keep saying the status of Kosovo is disputed for as long as it is disputed in real life. In concrete terms, this means that as soon as the Russians say they accept Kosovo's independence, all other obstacles will go away as well. So please whine to the Russians instead of trolling Wikipedia. --dab (𒁳) 12:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that the bar is being raised much more higher for the Kosovo and article case than in other countries. Why just Kosovo needs to enter the United Nations as a member to be called “a country” in this article when in other Wikipedia articles about countries outside the UN don’t get the same treatment?--201.81.193.190 (talk) 10:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is simply not true. All articles on partially recognized states are carefully balanced to meet WP:DUE. Obviously each case needs to be looked-at separately, but in each case, a proper balance needs to be found between secessionist and anti-secessionist editors. The only people who can mediate this are people with no opinion of their own, who are also aware of Wikipedia policies, such as myself. I literally have no vested interest in any secession debate on the planet.

If you look through the contributions on this talkpage, you will see clearly pro-Serbian, clearly pro-independence and neutral editors. But in the case of Kosovo, the pro-independence (Albanian) editors are clearly in the majority. If this article were left to slow edit warring between partisan accounts, the Albanian side would clearly win out, because it outnumbers the Serbian side. Intervention from uninvolved editors is necessary because articles on disputed topics are not to be dominated by numerical supremacy of partisan accounts. In an ideal world, partisan accounts would be banned from editing altogether.

We are very close to enforcing a "no partisan edits" policy on this article, see note at the top. Any account who so much as shows an intention to edit-war is to be blocked immediately. This is the only sensible approach, because clearly the ethnic disputes in the Balkans aren't just going to solve themselves if we ask people to please behave nicely. Ethnic hostility in the Balkans is probably more acute than anywhere else in Europe, and left to themselves people would probably just try to resolve any dispute with knives and clubs, as illustrated very eloquently by Meeso (talk · contribs) above. As long as this is the deal, Wikipedia will just have to stick to a policy of kicking out anyone who cannot behave in a civil and civilized way. --dab (𒁳) 13:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

dab I would like to block you as not once have you offered a balance view. Just reading your rant there any non-blind person can read your bias. Just out of curiosity do you have a WP Ethnic program to figure out that all pro-independence commenters are Albanians? It's people like you that enforce double standards between this page and other pages. Just introduction is a train wreck, if any decent person above you had any decency they would see that the intro should read "Kosovo is a state partially recognized by 70 UN members and vehemently disputed by Serbia." Then in the other paragraphs they would go deeper down about 5 minority EU states supporting Serbia, the Russian and Chinese veto influence, maybe even perhaps mention that Serbia has zero influence in Kosovo since A, B, C, ICJ verdict here, the UN resolution here...etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.198.186 (talk) 16:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, but if you have a vested interest, neutrality is bound to look like rooting for the opposition to you. If you cannot detach yourself from your opinions, please do not edit Wikipedia. Obviously many non-Albanians support Kosovar independence, including my own government and indeed most of Western Europe. But I think it is safe to say that only Albanian nationalists will claim that it is "biased" to state that the question is under dispute. Kosovo is not "partially recognized by 70 UN members". It is fully recognized by 71 UN members, and unrecognized by the remaining 121. Don't shoot the messenger, man. As soon as Kosovar independence is more widely recognized, I will be the first to happily change the article to reflect it. Personally I think Serbia cannot win this, they should cover their losses and cut a deal. But I recognize that the article is not about how I feel about the question but rather about the facts as they stand at the moment. --dab (𒁳) 11:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am a neutral UK citizen with absolutely no vested interest in Kosovo, and I totally agree with Dab's comments. Bazonka (talk) 12:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

911 Truth CC investigating AL-CIA-da role in sponsoring terrorism in this zone. This is only infs.

I think it is you, dab, who is truly acting in an uncivilized manner. You make a fuss about the little things (like what i said above), while you ignore the serious defects, some of which are thought to be caused by your excessive interference in this article, and being an admin, etc. You speak as though you have the moderation and sound judgment, while what you have been systematically doing, is dismissing the many complaints, and arguments that you oppose, and almost automatically attributing them all to bias and nationalism. The mere fact that repeated counter arguments and complaints are raised mean necessarily that they must find their way inside the article. Disputes shall be represented themselves as information in the article. And the fact that people keep talking about this means that you should give it more attention rather than dismiss it so arrogantly as though you are the one who possesses supremacy in wisdom and judgment, and obviously, being an admin, in action too. As admin You are responsible to mediate and facilitate the dialogue rather than come here and speak in the talk page like this: "We will do this, we will do that, Wikipedia will do this, Wikipedia will do that". Who is "we"? and what is "Wikipedia"? And who are you to speak in such authority to us. I think it becomes very harmful when one admin becomes too involved in an article the way admin dab is currently involved in this article, and i think it is better that as soon as an admin is being questioned over his or her positions and actions, to be immediately replaced by another one in monitoring the situation. you say: "As soon as Kosovar independence is more widely recognized, I will be the first to happily change the article to reflect it." which shows both your feeling of possession over the content of this article, and also, your failed judgment. For i can't see what is still required in order for Kosovar independence to be quite sufficiently recognized! Maysara (talk) 16:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone knows Kosova is a state and a legal one, it newly declared independence in 2008. It was NOT unilateral. In two years, 70 COUNTRIES recognize Kosova and these include USA, Britain, Ireland, Australia, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Hungary, even Montenegro and FYROM, most of Europe, most of EU, most of NATO, most of UN, World Bank awaerds membership to Kosova. Even Serb cronie allies allow Kosovar passports to travel through the countries. Am I going to sit here and caryr on calling it a disputed territory just because Communist China and imperialist Russia don't recognize it? Or backward Serbia? Please, get real. Prince of Kosova (talk) 12:20, 11 September 2010 (UTC) sockpuppet[reply]

It will come in time

Patience does it. What will happen will happen and I have yet to learn of international activity influenced by Wikipedia editing. The recent false alarm concerning Qatar puts the number at 70 that recognise Kosovo at the time of writing this. The page is wholly neutral: for those pushing for "Albania is a state" that dispute the status quo, consider that any Serbs and their sympathisers would prefer to begin the article: Kosovo is a Serbian province currently held by rebels. Dab is not from the region and as is evident from Bazonka's observation, he is not biased in the least. Even though the number of recognising states is set to increase until we see the final few that hold Serbia's position, it is folly to blow the final whistle at this point with 122 countries all recognising Serbia's territorial integrity. There is no prerequisite stating that a country must be a U.N. member to be a state - the Vatican is a non-member; Switzerland was a non-member until the 2000s, but this is by choice. Kosovo's government does not qualify to join the U.N. just yet but we know it would like to, just as it would NATO, the EU and various other degenerate intergovernmental institutions. Biased or neutral, no editor can sensibly ignore these details. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I am frankly tired of all the personal attacks just for stating the obvious. Are there no admins watching this page willing to warn/ban the trolls? This page is under arbcom probation after all. --dab (𒁳) 15:32, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

no in fact, i am preparing to bring this before the Administrators' noticeboard, and of course your threatening us above will be mentioned. Maysara (talk) 15:49, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is rich coming from someone who said "Please tell me his name and I shall put him down for ever!" Bazonka (talk) 16:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that some of those 122 countries (specifically Qatar) have made statements that they are going to recognize Kosovo, it is misleading to state that all 122 of them support Serbia. Aside from those who are in the process of recognition, there are probably many others that really don't care one way or the other. --Khajidha (talk) 18:14, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Believe it or not, on the day Kosovo's institutions delcared independence, even the U.S. recognised Serbia's sovereignty, as did Afghanistan although that was to remedy within a few hours. The order of action is very simple: first the countries recognise Kosovo, then we update the information. We do not however rush into such sweeping conclusions before the events take place. We don't declare a certain horse the winner of a race when it is known that no other participant stands a chance, until it has happened. As at Saturday 11 September 2010, 122 UN members recognise Serbia's territorial integrity of Kosovo. State recognition passes in ones directory from Point A to Point B instantly, there is no intermediary holding account where cetain-to-recognise states place such regions as Kosovo or Abkhazia. Evlekis (Евлекис) 18:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No we dont believe because it is false statement. U.S. recognised Serbia's sovereignty before 1999 not after 1999. And perhaps would have been good to contribute with your statistics at Montenegro article your state indicating that Montenegro is not recognized by 72 countries. This info is missing there. Montenegro entry must include this info -- LONTECH Talk 22:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Montenegro is missing here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_recognized_state#Limited Would not be fair to other states to give Montenegro this privileged status (while more than 70 countries dont recognize as a state) -- LONTECH Talk 22:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I meant everything I said in the above paragraph. Kosovo was recognised as being the sovereignty of FR Yugoslavia (1999-2003), Serbia and Montenegro (2003-2006) and Serbia (2006-2008) by all world nations. UNMIK did not constitute a separate state and the Belgrade government's mandate not to deploy security forces in the designated area no more excluded Kosovo from Serbia than the No Fly Zones over northern and southern Iraq meant that those zones were not recognised as being part of Iraq. Not even the de facto independence of the Iraqi Kurds once Baghdad's forces withdrew from a vast area in Iraqi Kurdistan meant that Kirkuk was not recognised as Iraqi. And Montenegro is a poor example, it is a country that has not established diplomatic relations with about 70 countries and that type of non-recognition is not the same as actually rendering a region to be within somebody elses sovereign territory. It is simple, if they don't recongise Montenegro, they won't recognise an independent Serbia for the same reason, they're recognition will be Serbia & Montenegro as one. As Serbia also divorced itself from the former SCG government by officially declaring independence and then itself recognising Montenegro in a relatively short time, there can be no question of anyone in the world still keeping a Serbia and Montenegro embassy, and having an abmassador to SCG. The SCG government itself dissolved. So it is just a case of if or when Montenegro will establish ties with those states. Remember, diplomatic relations are reciprocal, if they don't recognise Montenegro, Montenegro doesn't recognise them; but Montenegrin atlases display all countries of the world in the U.N and in turn, it features in maps and atlases of those other 70 countries. Evlekis (Евлекис) 19:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes UNMIK did constitute a separate state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Free_Trade_Agreement. The Central European Free Trade Agreement (CEFTA) is a trade agreement between non-EU countries in Central and South-Eastern Europe.There you can see Unmik-Kosovo as a State

No its not just a case of if or when Montenegro will establish ties with those states. There are 4 years in question. Montenegro sent requests for establishing diplomatic relations to all of these countries in the months immediately after the referendum on independence and again last year.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=04&dd=19&nav_id=66574. Please add this info there.

19 April 2010 | 13:10 | Source: Tanjug PODGORICA - Almost four years after it became independent and joined the UN, Montenegro is still awaiting recognitions from 72 out of 192 UN member states.-- LONTECH Talk 21:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I told you, and I will tell you again, no country recognises Serbia and Montenegro, so how do they see Montenegro's status? Secondly, UNMIK was not a country. Its representation of Kosovo in CEFTA served as a tool to promote Kosovo's interest when it was clear that Serbia had no de facto control. Nevertheless, before February 2008, Kosovo's status was as a Serbian province controlled by the U.N.. But where this is taking us I don't know, the original discussion was whether to present Kosovo as a country and the current situation is that 122 U.N members recognise Serbia's sovereignty over the territory, allbeit the UNMIK arrangement. Evlekis (Евлекис) 21:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is clear that they dont see it as an independent state. Kosovo in CEFTA served as a tool this word is part of your Rich imagination. We are not blind and we can read. Kosovo was never part of serbia. It was part of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Every UN document and resolution see kosovo part of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. You cant find only 1 UN document that says that Kosovo is part of Serbia.-- LONTECH Talk 17:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If it was controlled by the UN, then it wasn't controlled by Serbia; and if you don't control it, it ain't yours. Serbia lost Kosovo over a decade ago. --Khajidha (talk) 12:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Elvekis says it's a bad example. So UN member plus 70+ states that do not recognize you DOES NOT constitute a dispute but it's a country. So according to him and people like him (dab) WP defines states as UN members. Can you tell me why China's page doesn't begin with "is a disputed territory with republic of China (Taiwan)?". It is very appearant that in WP there are a lot of double standards placed against this page. Furthermore, it's not true that 122 countries support Serbia, only a handful are against Republic of Kosovo and the rest don't care or simply don't want to give an opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.198.186 (talk) 16:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not promote double-standards and there is no such thing as according to Evlekis, there is what is and what is not. The Vatican is not in the U.N but it is a country; Switzerland for a long time wasn't a member; this was their choice. It is not Kosovo's choice, they do not qualify to become a U.N member because of their lack of international recognition. Given the chance, Kosovo would join the U.N. China is a separate issue, there is a One-China policy and the two Chinas both lay claim to the entire Chinese territory, so it is not a case of ones sovereignty being disupted.

@Khajidha. "If it was controlled by the UN, then it wasn't controlled by Serbia; and if you don't control it, it ain't yours. " Right? Wrong. According to this argument, any rebel state is not a land of its legal overlord, so Transdniestr is not Moldovan because the Moldovans don't control it. I've got news for you, the world recognises that region as part of Moldova's territorial integrity. 1999: Kumanovo Treaty; Belgrade agreeing to hand over to the U.N was not an act of surrendering territory. The FRY/SCG dissovled in 2006 when Montenegro left the union. Where did this place Kosovo? If it weren't in Serbia then where was it? Montenegro? It can't have been anywhere else. UNMIK represnted Kosovo in CEFTA as Serbia knew that the arrangement in Kosovo meant that it was not excercising power there, so it is only Lontech's wild imagination that somehow renders Kosovo as not belonging to Serbia pre-2008.

@Lontech. If Kosovo was not part of Serbia prior to February 2008, perhaps you'd like to explain to every editor once again the purpose of the unilateral declaration? And what are Serbia's grounds for refusing it? According to you and Khadija, "Serbia lost it ten years ago", so from whom did Kosovo declare independence? From your imaginary Republic of UNMIK??? Do you even know who UNMIK was??? Did you think this was a party from within the region? Well whatever you thought I will tell you, UNMIK was the organisation that comprised international representatives all deployed by their respective governments to administer Kosovo as its highest office from the time of FRY force withdrawal until its own transfer of power to Kosovo authorities. Every KFOR, every OSCE individual in Kosovo is a subject of another country; that can never constitute a state per se. And if Kosovo was a member of FRY then what came of it when FRY became SCG? And when Montenegro left, where did that leave Jablanica and Banat? They were only in the FRY when it existed. Did Montenegro's departure mean that Serbia suddenly became fully fragmented just because some time earlier, it was all within the FRY?

There had been no federation since 2006 and Montenegro's departure changed NOTHING within the former territory outside of it (ie. Serbia/Kosovo). Either of you (or the anon) find me ONE source that states that "Montenegro's split with Serbia has amended the situation within Serbia by officially divorcing Kosovo from Serbia in a way that it hadn't been previously when Montenegro was in the union", even an UNRELIABLE source will be fine here; and then explain again what the purpose of Kosovo's 2008 delcaration was.

Back to the main point. Montenegro is not a disputed territory and nobody denies its sovereignty, diplomatic relations or not. Kosovo's status is disputed. And whatever Lontech/Khadija may say about Kosovo not being in Serbia before 2008, it was somewhere, it existed somehow and that was not as a de jure independent state. And just to clarify fully what I meant with my earlier statement about all countries recognising Serbian sovereignty until recognising Kosovo: before February 2008, the whole world recognised something, the status quo of Kosovo whatever it was. Whether a state chooses to recognise Kosovo or not, until the moment it does so, it continues to officially recognise the status quo ante (previous state of affairs). And if the status quo ante did not favour Serbian sovereignty, then what does Romania mean when it promises to partner Serbia every step of the way and not recognise Kosovo? What has Serbia got to do with it if Kosovo was not part of it? Where and when did Serbia come to change its own position? Accepting UNMIK as a state one minute and then suddenly renewing its claim on Kosovo after the declaration? Wake up! Serbia never surrendered its claim on Kosovo 1999-2008 and every article in every worldly encyclopaedia pertaining to Kosovo and its subjects permanently referred to a Serbian Province controlled by the U.N; to you two (as you have difficulty comprehending "controlled by U.N"), it was Serbian Province, Period". And until a majority of states recognise Kosovo, each of those states recognises the pre-2008 status and with that, Kosovo is a disputed territory.

The final edit made to Prizren (to use one of thousands of examples) before Cradel updated it according to the declaration in 2008, was this edit. Examine it, and see how all pre-2008 subjects were presented in Kosovo. It is too late today but I wish you two would have disupted links with Serbia at the time. I'm curious as to how successful your opinions would have been, how much weight they would have carried. Evlekis (Евлекис) 01:42, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is declaration Of Independence http://www.kuvendikosoves.org/common/docs/Dek_Pav_e.pdf you cant find serbia there. The fact is that Kosovo declared independence from UNMIK, not from serbia There were no serbian institution inside kosovo in 2008. UNMIK was not the organisation ...... In reality it was a STATE.

A sovereign state is a state with a permanent population, a defined territory, a government and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states

and Unmik had all these attributes and exercised these functions one of them you can see in (CEFTA). And if Kosovo was a member of FRY then what came of it when FRY became SCG? Kosovo left FYR in 1999.

At least Chavez VENEZUELA sees Montenegro part of Serbia. not counting other 71 states.-- LONTECH Talk 22:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your regretful attestation is flawed from end to end. Kosovo never left the FRY; the FRY handing over to UNMIK was in its eyes an interim arrangement and Kosovo continued to be viewed by the world as FRY sovereignty. The changeover from FRY to SCG did dot redesignate the borders of the country, and when Montenegro broke free, it did not take Kosovo with it, so Kosovo was in the eys of the world a UN-administered region within the Republic of Serbia. You are the only user that has called UNMIK a state that has not been linked to Sinbad Baron (yet). There is a major difference between a land being supervised by an international body that allows it to function autonomously and a country. UNMIK was the former. You show me otherwise all your sources for your precious State of UNMIK, what elections were there to vote in a governor-general or some head of state? What was UNMIK's national anthem? How did UNMIK's coat of arms appear? What was UNMIK's motto? Where was the UNMIK embassy in Mali? What was UNMIK's national currency? What colour was the UNMIK passport cover (not temporary Kosovo travel document)? Whom did UNMIK play in the qualifiers for the 2006 World Cup (football)? As for CEFTA, without Serbia having control of Kosovo, somebody had to change their nappies for them; if they were not represented by UNMIK officials they would have been isolated from the venture. But UNMIK was not a state. If you think it was, just rewrite the whole article. Chavez does not recognise Montenegro as part of Serbia. SERBIA never recognised Montenegro as part of Serbia, the two entities were partners. Anyone not recognising Montenegro doesn't recognise Serbia either because they would only have ties with SCG, and given that SCG has dissolved, there is no continuing SCG diplomatic mission in Caracas. So if Venezuela is not interested in developing ties with Montenegro, that is their problem. Evlekis (Евлекис) 16:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In response to your point to me --- States exist solely because the people living under them agree that they exist, therefore if the people living in Transdniestria agree that they are not part of Moldova then they aren't - no matter what anyone else anywhere in the world believes. --Khajidha (talk) 02:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course that is true Khadija. During the time of the Empires (Rome, Macedonia, etc.), we didn't have futile intergovernmental organisations such as the U.N. to determin what belonged to whom; what was yours was yours by unwritten laws of conquest. So I agree with you. The trouble is, whenever someone has amended the title to call Kosovo a country, it has provoked an outrage because of all these technicalities and complications. I didn't invent them Khadija, and I only wish these stupid arguments would bury themselves and by that, I want to see Belgrade recognise Kosovo, allbeit on some kind of mutual pact with the administration in Priština; but until then, I am powerless to make an amendment on the intro even if I wanted to. As for Transdniestr, Abkhazia, etc., well they stand even less chance of being presented as countries as they are never likely to be widely recognised as Kosovo is. I hope you don't view my comments in bad faith. Evlekis (Евлекис) 10:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In 2008, Kosovo renewed it's independence (that's why the campaign slogan was "Newborn"). Kosovo recognized being a self-ruling territory under the UN and UNMIK but it never considered itself a a part of Serbia. So in a way, yes, when Kosovo broke free in 2008, Serbia did renew it's claim on it. Serbia was officially using it's old constitution after Montenegro declared independence from Serbia and that constitution was the old "FR Yugoslavia" paper. Kosovo in 1999 was formally part of FR Yugoslavia so when Montenegro declared independence, the constitution was invalid so Kosovo's declaration is both legal and amounting to a fully fledged state. It was exactly the same when Serbia first conquered Kosovo in 1912, it never legally incorporated Kosovo. Serbia was subject to it's 1903 constitution which said that it cannot change it's own borders from what they were then. Because of that, Kosovo was legally a part of Albania but under Serb occupation. That occupation officially ended in 1999 when Nato pushed the Serbs out and held on until Kosovo "renewed" it's independence. So it was no unilateral action. Happy Democrat (talk) 13:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sovereignty as a state is based on contemporary recognition by other states, not on contorted historical arguments. This is perfectly trivial, as otherwise obviously everybody would arbitrarily pick such a point in time as "relevant" as best suits their agenda. It is unclear why people keep posting their personal opinion to this page. This isn't a chat forum. If you want to discuss the question of the political status of Kosovo, please go to Talk:Political status of Kosovo, where you will at least be on topic. Then make sure you respect WP:RS. Nobody is interested in your personal opinions, loyalties and sentiments. The only thing Wikipedia is interested in is, do you have quotable references that can be used to improve the article. --dab (𒁳) 08:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the fact that the Political status of Kosovo is part of Kosovo this would be the excellent locale to discuss such matters. I don't understand why you are always against discussions ... especially with users and arguments in which you do not agree in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.61.194 (talk) 21:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Kosovo history of 1400's cannot be biased if both perspectives are shown

The last changes by Hxseek on the history section Ottoman Kosovo (1455–1912) were made because of "revert clearly POV, unscource edit by A.C." are totally unacceptable. The text in the form it was had only one source, Cikovic, which is a Serbian source. In such delicate (not clear-cut) matters we need as much sources as we can get, and of course as much perspectives as we can get. I did not add the Albanian perspective, as I do not agree with it, although if we are going to leave the Serbian view of the history it is only fair to add the Albanian one as well. In the meantime information by international scholars such as Anscombe and Malcolm are more than welcome, considering they are both experts on the field (especially Malcolm). Please do not revert the edit, you can discuss about points where you have more information and we can together make a better and clearer picture of that part of history. —Anna Comnena (talk) 17:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the cradle of Serbian culture?

Cinéma C took issue with me on because I reverted his edit that "Kosovo became the crux of Serbia's historical culture". I am currently reading up on the 1804 revolt against the Janissaries. At that time Serbian nationalism had little if anything to do with Kosovo. That many Serb nationalists now believe Kosovo is central does not make it true. The claim that Kosovo is "the cradle of Serbian culture" was a first sight referenced but if you check the reff it is that "Serbs still see Kosovo as their Jerusalem - the cradle of Serbian culture and religion." That is say that Serbs believe this not that is actually so. Even that is a bit of journalistic simplification. Not all Serbs believe this. That is why I did not merely ask for a reff but attribution. To say that x claims y may well be even if y is patently false. Stating who x is allows readers to judge for themselves.Dejvid (talk) 11:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not talking about 1804, but pre-1389 Kosovo, which was the centre of the Serbian state, religion, tradition and culture. This is not a matter of point of view, but historical facts. I'm confused why you're mentioning 1804. --Cinéma C 05:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then please reference those historical facts.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:13, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I just reached for my copy of Malcolm. According to the "Nemanjid Expansion" map in the front:

1. In 1196 (abdiction of Stefan Nemanja), part of Rascian territory covered what is now northwestern Kosovo.

2. In 1321 (death of Milutin), the borders had stretched a little in most directions, but slightly further to the south, including Skopje.

3. By 1355 (death of Stefan Dušan) the territory was much enlarged, including all of what is now Kosovo, most of Albania except for a Venetian enclave, most of the Greek mainland, &c.

4. Then those territories were, in their turn, taken over by others. The empire had already disintegrated long before 1389. And for most of this period, "Serb" territory did not stretch as far as Belgrade...

I understand that some modern writers have portrayed medieval Kosovo as being the "heart" of medieval and hence modern Serbia - but it's as absurd as saying that Aquitaine or Normandy is "really" British. And to choose 1389 instead of 1189 or 1589 or 1789 is just arbitrary nationalist cherry-picking. Why not wind the clock back another 200 years and say that Kosovo is actually part of Byzantium? bobrayner (talk) 11:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to explain the whole matter fully. First of all, never mind about Noel Malcolm or his publications. If you're driving your car, throw everything with him out the window, best place for it :) Seriously, this is a point that is trite and taken wrongly by a great many people; Kosovo's relevance to Serbia is not even a threat to Albanian aspiration so I don't know why anyone worries. History is confined to the past and today's events need not observe the time gone. Firstly, Malcolm has pointed out that the Serbian state originated outside of Kosovo, in other words, it predates a time when the empire would expand to include Kosovo. If you think about it, a cradle is not where a child is born but where he sleeps as an infant whilst life flourishes. Life in this case is culture. Kosovo's territory was every bit an important field for early Serb culture and there is certainly no documented area elsewhere that is presented as being "the cradle" by Serbs that would contradict this. Remember, it is known that Kosovo was part of Serbia and if it had been another region that was the centre for culture, Serbs would have no reason to deny this and play down the importance of that region just to strengthen their present-day claim. The basis for today's dispute is all that has occurred 1912-onward but especially from the 1990s, not forgetting 1999. One legacy of Kosovo being important to early Serbia is the many Orthodox churches and symbols that remain across the entire territory, then consider that what is in ruins on top of that what has been destroyed, both in the centuries of Ottoman rule and the more recent conflict with ethnic Albanians. Even so, you still do not find as much in the way of culture that can be attributed to a Serbian state outside of Kosovo, neither within Central Serbia where it would be best preserved, nor in Republic of Macedonia where the Orthodox tradition is certainly not hostile to old Serbia. Remember also, it is for a nation to decide its cultural pivot and it cannot be disputed. The whole subject is very subjective and the only sources to dispute it are those that contend that such a centre was somewhere else. Abdications and deaths form landmarks for future interest (eg. Latin Bridge, assassination of Ferdinand), they are not significant to where the heart of culture lies. Evlekis (Евлекис) 17:38, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well said. --Cinéma C 19:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are avoiding the issue of why, if Kosovo is so important to Serbs, do the census data for the last century show an Albanian majority there? --Khajidha (talk) 15:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cinéma C - why 1804? If Kosovo is central to Serb nationalism (note the if) then not to care about Kosovo is incompatible with being a Serb nationalist. That proposition is disproved if at different times and places there have been Serb nationalists who have cared little about Kosovo. In 1804 Serb nationalism was concerned about issues relevant to the status and life of Serbs in the Belgrade Pashaluk. You might think their priorities were wrong but that is only your point of view. Likewise, separatist Serbs in Croatia in 1990 found Kosovo a distraction for a very obvious reason. It was impossible for them to argue in favor of Serb control of Kosovo without using principles that endorsed Croat control of Knin. But this is Wikipedia. It is perfectly valid to say a specific Serb nationalist group believes that Kosovo is central to Serb identity so long as it is flagged up as the point of view of that specific group. That is to say attributed and not merely referenced. (Of course assuming that said group can be shown to be notable which I suspect shouldn't be too hard)Dejvid (talk) 16:05, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

afaik it is undisputed that Kosovo was populated with a Serbian majority prior to 1800 just as it is undisputed that there is an Albanian majority now. As for "cradle", the Serbs as an ethnicity began to articulate from a generic South Slavic population in the 6th to 9th century. There was no territory coterminous with Kosovo prior to the 19th century so it can hardly be the cradle of Serbian culture. According to our Serbs article, " The first Serb states were Rascia, Doclea, Travunia, Pagania and Zachlumia." It is undisputed that what is now Kosovo is a part of these territories, but I see no evidence that it was in any sense more of a "cradle" than any other part. "Kosovo" got its relevance only in the wake of 1389, long after Serbian culture had emerged. So yes, what is now Kosovo used to be part of medieval Serbia, but no, I see no evidence it was a "cradle" (or ?"crux") in any particular sense. --dab (𒁳) 16:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The churches, monasteries and religious objects pertaining to a Serbian state in Kosovo date back to well before 1389; Serb tribes populated today's North Kosovo from the 7th or 6th century (the rest of Kosovo was subject to the eastern branch of south Slavs). The region did gain relevance within the first empire period so that historiographically, it may be deemed "the cradle" by the nation. Evlekis (Евлекис) 17:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I restored the BBC source but have changed the text to provide all that the source itself gives, one person's verdict. Although it is not good to play on it at that early stage of the article, Kosovo's actual importance within Serbia was on the increase throughout the 14th century. So in historiographical terms, it is viewed as the crux for its importance during the final decades. That is all but it is more than nothing. Evlekis (Евлекис) 18:32, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a new user I cannot edit this page, can someone please undo Evlekis' edit and replace Lontech's more neutral rendition? Evlekis is just edit warring and nothing more. Kosovo was not a Serb cradle because the Serb state began in Raskia a long way from Kosovo. Kosovo is just the place the Serbs lost their war to the Turks. There is a lifelong Albanian majority in Kosovo and even the name Kosovo derives from Albanian. Albanians settled there before the Serbs came to the Balkans and Serbs only ever conquered the place, never had a true Serb population there. I am citing reliable sources neither Serb nor Albanian published by Judah and Malcolm. Neutral Player (talk) 21:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC) sockpuppet[reply]

I used good quality books and added a caveat (that it wasn't really the cradle of Serb culture, even if most Serbs think so). Many books cite the "cradle" thing as the reason for the war, or at least a huge detonator, or one of the reasons that it was so cruel. This is crucial to understand why Serbs keep conquering Kosovo during the 19th and 20th century, and it should be mentioned. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For Enric Naval

Hi Enric. I appreciate your good faith edits and I do not wish to take a militant stand and revert you although I feel you should know a few things (as mentioned above, I will remind you so you don't need to bore yourself reading it all top to bottom). First, Serbia/Kosovo is a very sensitive issue so you have to watch your ps and qs when submitting comments, because "conquered" is the single most offensive term that you can use. Conquest was when you sent battleships across oceans to overcome remote nations' defence forces before annexing the land and subjugating the population. This is not the age of conquest, these are times of irredentism; ideologies based on past glory or past ambition revived. A brief note on the modern history of Serbia: before 1878, it did not even exist on maps; before circa 1829, it did not have a recognised autonomy from within; before 1817, it did not have a functional de facto autonomy; and before 1804, the Serbs were nothing. How do we have a Serbia today? Just as it achieved its first self-ruling entity south of Hungary (the Smederevo palashuk), each time the region expanded, its success was attributed to local uprisings and insurgencies and not just the advancing army from Belgrade. Kosovo was not an exception. Having been larger than today's tinpot region, ethnic Serbs rebelled against the Ottomans from Sandžak towns such as Prijepolje and Pljevlja right down to the other extreme of the vilayet, the town of Štip where the population was mixed in identity between Serb or Bulgarian. There are no accurate figures to determin the demographics of the vilayet but if today's statistics are anything to go by, it would be about 50/50 Albanian-Serb; one needs to bare in mind that the ancestors of many of today's Montenegrins, Bosniaks and Macedonians did declare Serb. So nobody "kept conquering" anything in the 19th/20th centuries, merely Serbia retook the large section of then-Kosovo in 1912. Now back to the subject of a "cradle", this is yet one more misconception that is widespread. There is no Serb that states that Kosovo is where the Serb state was born. If there were, it would be easy to correct them, so much so, they would never repeat it and we would never have to mention it. A child is born when isolated from the womb; nobody has called Kosovo the womb. Likewise, a cradle is not the environment where a baby is born, it is just a place to sleep during infancy as life around it flourishes. Infancy for the Serbian state is in historiographical terms the pre-1389 country. During the final decades (the 14th century), modern-day Kosovo lands became culturally important. This is most evident by the many religious monuments and objects from churches to monasteries that remain today on top of those that were demolished, ruined or converted in the years of Ottoman rule, later communism and more recently the conflcts with ethnic Albanians. However, there can be no comparison between the relevance of the Metropolitan of Peć and Archbishop of Seria from 1255 onward compared to its predecessor in Žiča. There is no evidence that there was a region of greater importance than present-day Kosovo when studying the pre-1389 state; but most essentially, what is a crux anyhow? Who today looks at where the centre of German or Italian culture is? Speaking of cradles is historiographical and it is only the rhetoric of the nation in question. By the same account, the same land can be of equal importance to another nation present on it. After all, it is not important for a nation to have a state in the first place. Kurds may still declare a region as a centre for its cultural identity; by this token, the millions of people scattered across no fewer than four countries still have one standard language. So stating that the Serb state never originated from Kosovo is non-sequitor when discussing a nation considering the land a cradle. Likewise, mention of it does not serve as a tool for either today's claim nor the 1912 claim. In 1912, Serbia was wishing to retake old lost territories; today, Serbia is concerned for what it sees to be the loss of its sovereignty over a region in accordance with constitutions and treaties from the 1990s, especially 1999. It is of no importance whether Kosovo was a bread basket; it is enough to say "it was ours, it is ours", and that is all. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure on what to answer here. I suggest to go here, search for "cradle" (sends you to page 220). Then write a little text on the body of the article about the cradle thing, using this book as a source. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:34, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of books and hours of reading from those titles I see. To be honest, too much fuss is made over such a minor issue; Kosovo being a cradle is not essential reading nor is it important for any part of any discussion. It is so subjective anyhow and the matter is easily bypassed just by all articles concentrating on the events that passed rather than the ideological concerns of the nation. The 14th century saw many transfers from one place to another, and the fact that the "other" place may be in present-dat Kosovo is not vital to the text. It simply suffices to state that a nation considers a certain land to be its cultural hub and no more needs to be said. If Kosovo is or was the pivot of Albanian movement (the League of Prizren is a definite marker) then I suggest that both Serbs and Albanians can all start scratching their heads and realising that the land for which they battle has two-way significance. Evlekis (Евлекис) 00:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Brought the claim for "cradle" in history part [5]. It is way too controversial to stay in the lede. The lede should be a summary of what's in the article and that sentence will (alas) inflame always. Leave the sentence in history part, but please don't put it in the lede, which is the most read piece of the article. --Sulmues ^(talk) 19:25, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I actually agree with you here Sulmues, despite our differences in the other ongoing affairs, "occupation of Albania" and the like. In my honest opinion, the matter is very trivial. If I'm not mistaken, the land is of equal historical cultural importance to the Albanians, and no reason it shouldn't be. The problem is when certain users continue to remove the information regardless. Ones "cradle" is not a historical fact, nor a story, merely a sentiment; mention it yes, but keep it distant from the intro (as I said in an earlier point), and keep it in context remembering it is subjective. I am sure even the original author Cinema C will agree to this; naturally he won't appreciate having his contributions reverted but we all have to assume good faith when other editors resculpt them. Thanks Sulmues. Evlekis (Евлекис) 19:32, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Source is required or not?

There is the discussion in russian wikipedia of if source for "South Ossetia is partially-recognized" is required or not. One side say that we need source for if at least one country recognized South Ossetia. Another side want source where "SO" is called "partially-recognised". Please let me know your POV.

Also second side propose to rewrite the preambul in such way.

Republic of South Ossetia (oset. Республикæ Хуссар Ирыстон, груз. ცხინვალის რეგიონი/ სამხრეთ ოსეთი) — separatist entity in the territory of sovereign Georgia.

Please let me know how your reaction if such is proposed here.

I asked your help becase Kosovo has similar political status.--Bouron (talk) 08:41, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

you have ru:Непризнанные и частично признанные государства, which lists South Ossetia as "partially recognized state with de facto control over its territory". It's up to ru-wiki to establish its own rules and best practices, but people asking for a source saying "partially recognized" verbatim whe you have shown that four UN member states recognize it are evidently just trolling and trying to drag out the issue. Of course four isn't quite comparable to the 70 recognitions of Kosovo. It's Russia (which you can discount as having vested interest), and then Nicaragua, Venezuela and Nauru. It's "partially recognized" alright, but very partially indeed, and people should not use "partially recognized" to create an impression of a level of international recognition that is not there. --dab (𒁳) 11:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!--Bouron (talk) 13:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is one more grey area in Wikipedia whereby we as editors are compelled to resort to original research for the purpose of linking facts that are sourced. To use a simple term, you have two towns some kilometres apart, but it is down to you as an editor to decide how we get from one town to the other; I say use this road, another editor says use another road, and that is the route of WP conflict. We call Kosovo "partially recognised" but in reality, an institution will either recognise it or not. The government of the Republic of Slovakia is not betrothed to neutrality or internal consensus when it makes its decisions; it chooses not to recognise whilst Portugal chooses to do so. So any self-defined state that is not recognised by everyone and everything is partially recognised. Our arguments have been, "at what point can we start calling Kosovo a country?" and I still say that once this article is changed to observe this description, there will be no problem defining the breakaway Georgian regions as you wish, Kosovo will have moved on so there will be no double-standard. Curiously enough, the party that has demonstrated in favour of WP referring to Kosovo as a state did not wait until the ICJ ruling, nor did they wait for 70 countries to recognise it; they have been on at this since February 2008 when independence was declared, and their biggest argument has been that WP should honour de facto status; in a sense they are right, it is not so open to dispute this way, but my own thoughts are irrelevant because various factors are taken on board and each case is handled individually. As for Russia having "vested interest", I wouldn't worry too much about that, it is just a question of whether Russia recognises or not. It is not as if most of the countries recognising or not recognising Kosovo do not themselves have ulterior motives, that's the way of the world. At the moment, most movement figures in Abkhazia are pro-Moscow but if one day a coup should oust any Russian-friendly authority and replace it with something looking to isolate the region further, I cannot see Russia quite amending its position on Georgian territorial integrity. Evlekis (Евлекис) 19:18, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Link to Abdul Hamid

The link to Abdul Hamid in the text "The Albanians threatened to march all the way to Salonika and reimpose Abdul Hamid." appears to link to the incorrect Abdul Hamid. I think Abdul Hamid II is the correct one, but I am not sure. 75.85.180.14 (talk) 18:58, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is antiserbian, this article strongly supports only albanian side and point of view, and this will be published in "Politika", most selled newspaper in Serbia! --109.121.31.67 (talk) 23:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the update. I hope it doesn't mention my user name in any bad capacity! This article is not that anti-Serbian. Ask the Albanians who would prefer to change the intro to "country" and see if it is anti-Serb. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:17, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija -like redirects

I see that many variants of "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija" redirect here (including such written in cyrillic). I propose that we redirect them to Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (disambiguation) - or if possible directly to an article such as: Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1946-1974), Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo, Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990–1999). Alinor (talk) 20:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Countries