Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

• Archive 1 (February 2005 to September 2005):
• Archive 2 (next to start):

• The Flashback Characters section feels like a great big mess to me, and with Season 2 introducing new characters and continuing the tradition of flashbackery, it seems like this section will simply continue to grow. Anyone else think it's time to give it a trim? Baryonyx 19:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, what I believe we need to do is determine which Flashback Characters are critical, and which aren't. If they're there simply for background (like, say Lily in Charlie's "Exodus" flashback, or the couple in Sun and Jin's flashbacks), they don't need to be here. Nor should hypothesized things like "Unnamed woman". IMHO, the MAJOR flashback characters are obvious: (I know all the names of these characters, just not using them to make it clear who I mean) Jack's father and wife, Locke's mother and father, Charlie's brother and lady friend, Jin's father, Sun's father, Sawyer's partner and his target, Sayid's friend and lady friend, Kate's childhood friend, her mother and the farmer, Claire's boyfriend and the psychic, Hurley's psych ward friend and the wife, and Walt's mother and step-father. I realize that's still a steep list, but these are the biggest ones. The way I think we can reformat this is into some sort of tabled list, including Character Name, Actor Name, Related To, and Episodes. We don't need the mini-biographies, I think. Baryonyx 19:43, 21 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. It is quite a mess and no doubt will continue to get worse. These "extras" are why we link to IMDB most of the time, IMHO. K1Bond007 19:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Would it make sense to limit it to characters who appear in two or more episodes? Those who appear in only one episode are self-contained, and maybe they could be mentioned on the major character page for the flashbacker if appropriate. So far we have only five recurring (multi-episode) flashback-only characters: Jack's father, Jack's wife, Locke's father, Hurley's mother and Walt's mother. Ahkond 18:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I actually cut this section down that day, under the Be Bold proviso. The table you see now used to be a long list of text. The characters there now are the ones who have pretty strong influences on the lives of the characters. Could it be trimmed down more? Yes... but when making the current list, I had to ask myself which was better: having a longer table, including perhaps a couple more that could be excised, or having a shorter table that will be crufted to death because someone was upset I ignored say... Locke's mother. I went with the longer list. There have been additions to that list that I don't think we're necessary (Jack's mother, for one... she is of minor importance compared to Christian and Sarah). We can discuss which ones can be cropped out if you'd like. Baryonyx 03:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Marvin Candle? Why is he there? He is most certainly not a flashback character. He appears in a film the main characters see in "real time", as it were. If we include Marvin Candle in this section, why not also Alvar Hanso, and the DeGroots? I honestly think he has no business being in this section, as that is not what the section is there for, and if that slips by its only a matter of time before the section starts looking like it once did. Comments? Baryonyx 20:44, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm also of the opinion that the information contained in the Non-Televised Characters is of little value and probably falls beyond the scope of what is appropriate for this page (should be fansite material), and with the exception of Dr. Arzt and US Marshal Mars, the Other Survivors section is also unneeded. IMHO, this page should focus only on those characters that have proven pivotal to the plot, be it on or off the island, in some way. No one in the Non-Televised Characters section has, and I'm not of the opinion that most of the Other Survivors have really stood out yet (being a running joke, half of which is dead doesn't count). When characters like Scott, Steve, Tourniquet Man, etc. begin having major speaking roles and influencing action, we can add them back. But for now, I'd say remove those two sections entirely, and move Dr. Arzt and US Marshal Mars to Secondary Characters. Baryonyx 21:30, 21 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I decided to remove the sections I discussed above under the be bold Wikipedia convention. I am not replicating the removed material here to save on talk page space. Baryonyx 04:17, 24 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • This information went back up again in much compressed form. I am inclined to leave the canonical ones, for now, but the non-canon ones are outta here. I hope that this section doesn't get too crufty again. Baryonyx 06:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does anyone think some of the more prominent and reccuring flashback characters (Dr Christain Sheppard, US Marhsall, Susan Porter) should have their own pages or something, because it would be nice to have an area were some further infomation about them could be avalible

Time again to remind folks that Wikipedia is not the place to try out novel theories, suppositions or guesswork, all of which falls under the Wikipedia:No Original Research Policy. While some uncited material may slip into the Lost character articles due to its nature as a "mystery show," that shouldn't suggest it's ok to further add one's own ideas of the meaning or nature of characters, without citation from an authoritative source. Thus, I've removed the new speculative "Name Origins" by anonymous editor 70.27.35.171. If someone can provide verifiable and reliable sources that the "meaning" ascribed to the character's names actually reflect the writers' process in naming them (referenced in series' promotional materials, for example), I'd be happy to see the sections re-included. While they may be interesting and thought-provoking, such material is probably best left to fan Web sites. (That's not to say, of course, that they shouldn't be brought up for discussion on the Talk pages, for possible inclusion in the articles.) LeFlyman 15:35, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The section heading indicates that these are people seen ONLY in flashbacks, not on the island. If we wanted to be technical, Desmond is not the only flashback character to appear on the island. Through Boone, Sawyer is both a flashback character and a main character. Similar conclusions can be reached concerning all the main survivors (including Rose, Arzt, and the marshal). I personally do not think we need repetitious information on the same page, and placing an entry for Desmond in Flashback Characters and Secondary Characters does just that. Citing these two reasons, I've removed him from Flashback Characters. Baryonyx 03:57, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that someone has identified by name and possible reference, the symbol on the locker used by Desmond in his underground lair-- although, I did not see it on his uniform. However, there was also a very unusual design on Desmond's shirt in the "stadium running" flashback with Jack, which I've screencapped here:

Can anyone identify what this is, as it was shown repeatedly and clearly in multiple shots while Desmond was holding up Jack's ankle? Is it just me, or does it seem to be reminiscent of the "Anarcho-punk" symbol, such as this one: http://www.ahherald.com/images/news/2004/anarchy.jpg ? There's even what looks like an "A", in black, on the right of the design, turned on its side -- LeFlyman 16:55, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• The two-headed eagle is an old symbol for various things. It was introduced by Charlemagne as a symbol for his kingdom (the original Holy Roman Empire) with the two heads signifying Rome and Germany, but it was also used by the latter Byzantines. It was later used as a symbol for the Holy Roman Empire and for Austria and/or Germany, as well as imperial Russia (which saw itself as a successor to the Byzantine empire). It is also a symbol for a type of high-level Freemason; see http://scottishritemasons-can.org/eagle.htm. Similarly it was used as a symbol for the Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, Knights Hospitaller (see http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/gms/eagle.htm). Ahkond 17:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• It's a pentagon surrounding what looks to be a representation of a phoenix. The pentagon is significant because its interior angles are 108°. Beyond the mythical symbolism of rebirth, I'm not sure why the phoenix would be significant at this time. I'm ignoring the bar at this moment, since it is perfectly horizontal, does not conform to the contours of the shirt, and looks to be overlaying the entire image. I'd need a bigger screencap including the bar before I'd consider it part of the image. On another note... that looks exactly like a lightened version of an image on The Fuselage. Did you post it there too? If not, there's a thread there about this as well. Baryonyx 18:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Double-headed eagle... hadn't thought of that one. Good call Ahkond. Makes it seem even less likely that this is meant to reflect the anarchist symbol to me then, given the heritage of the symbol. Baryonyx 18:10, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • File:Smallscreen.jpg

    I did a screencap and clipped out the symbol from the shirt. I increased the contrast in order to improve the visibility-- thus it appears lightened. The horizontal bar is actually a design element on Desmond's knit shirt... but the double-headed eagle-phoenix and strange pentagon shape are clearly "overlayed" on the shirt. Here's a reduced version of the full screen cap.

In looking at the larger one Baryonyx pointed out on The Fuselage, I think it may be as likely to be a phoenix/firebird-- with the second "head' looking more like a crown-- than a two-headed eagle, particularly as it is colored red, Plus, the symbolism of a phoenix is more appropriate. Compare, for example to this: http://www.singaporerooms.net/images/phoenix-logo.jpg --LeFlyman 19:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• • • For those interested, the German version is known as a Bundesadler. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 16:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I removed information claiming that Desmond appears in an as of yet unaired episode. Even if the contributor does have advance knowledge of episode information, the cite is not verifiable, and therefore does not meet Wikipedia guidelines for inclusion. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 16:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Ana-Lucia listed in the "Deceased" section? The section serves as a running headcount total, where we keep track of how many survivors of the plane crash are on the island. I would propose that the section be renamed "Headcount", where additions like the tail section group and the birth of Aaron would fit more sensibly. Ana-Lucia already has a separate page, but we should list other members of her party (Libby, Bernard, etc.) above in the Secondary section. If they take on strong roles, they could then be promoted to primary characters with their own pages; either way, a "headcount" section could simply refer the reader elsewhere. Ahkond 16:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Headcount section, as opposed to deceased sounds better, given what the section is becoming. As for Ana-Lucia, Michelle Rodriguez is listed as a cast regular this season, which is why this character has earned a separate page already (as we've discussed on the main talk page). Everyone else from the tail section (including Bernard, and other guests with sizeable roles), should be listed in Secondary Characters or left for the IMDB Guest Stars page. Baryonyx 19:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. I'll plan to make this change in a day or so to give people more time to comment here. Ahkond 21:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Section changed to "Census" and has counts both flight 815 and people already on the island. Rillian 01:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think that "Writers Assistant Matt Ragghianti" shouldn't be deemed a more reputable source than Locke in Orientation, saying there were 43 in his group. Ethan was part of the count when it was declared there were 48. Also, when Hurley did the census after Marshal Mars died and another girl drowned, he says this:

Hurley: We've got a problem. The manifest, Jack, the census, the names of everyone who survived, all 46 of us. I interviewed everyone. Here, at the beach, got their names. One them, one of isn't... Jack! One of them isn't in the manifest. He wasn't on the plane.

Hurley counted Ethan, and thus Ethan was part of the 48. That means there's presently 43 mid-section survivors, with 4 who went rafting, and Locke was correct in Orientation.--Trypsin 20:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The tail section survivors were miscounted (They are 5, not 6): As later episodes reveal, the "Man at the beach" is Bernard. Cindy has also been named in episode 5.

Is this "Island Census" truly necessary? The section is repetitive and crufty LeFlyman 03:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Take another look. I removed some of the repeated information. I think this is a valid section as people regularly ask "how many survivors are there?" and "who else is on the island?" Rillian 18:12, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think it has gone overboard, and could stand a trimming down. The section has gotten out of control. And, the questions above, for an encyclopedia's purposes, have a two sentence answer: "A total of 73 people survived the crash of Flight 815, and 25 have subsequently died on the island, while one has been born. They are joined by at least 3 other people on the island at the time of the crash." These three people are Desmond, Danielle, and Ethan. I hesitate counting ANY of the Others, because I consider thinking them definitively human is speculation at this point. If you guys want to count the Others, that's fine... but it still only needs 2 sentences. Everything else is cruft. Baryonyx 20:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cruft is the new spam. Just when you think you've gotten rid of it, more shows up. I saw your earlier comment about Marvin Candle-- should his appearance in one scene qualify for "Secondary character" status? By that token, nearly all the flashback characters should get their own paragraph (particularly Jack's father). And should deceased characters (Ethan Rom, the Marshal, and Leslie Arzt) whose stories are currently "over" even be grouped with the main -- "secondaries?" LeFlyman 10:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, remember, I was talking about Marvin Candle's listing in Flashback Characters... he most certainly isn't that yet, unless we want to consider the survivors watching a video a flashback. However, I see he has been added as a secondary character, which, at this point, he most certainly doesn't deserve, since 1.) he's not even technically on the island and 2.) one scene, no matter how important, does not a secondary character make. In fact, most everything he says is already written up on the pages for The Hanso Foundation and The Dharma Initiative. As for how we handle deceased characters with a big enough role to count as a secondary character (which Ethan most certainly is, the Marshal and Arzt less so) that is certainly up for debate. I mean, the question in each of their cases should be: how much is the info in their sections duplicated in other sections on the main characters. Some, like Desmond, Danielle, and perhaps Ethan cross too many characters, and perhaps deserve a write-up so that we're not endlessly repeating their stories in the main character pages. Just link it and you're done. Thoughts? Baryonyx 17:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And just like that the "Island Census" is turning repetitive again. Perhaps we need to consider breaking out the section into its own article? LeFlyman 17:00, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, first, I'm removing the "Other Survivors" section again. If this section is in place when "The Other 48 Days" airs, it'll probably end up being a cruft-o-rama. I also think the Island Census section needs a good trimming, but I really don't think this information is deserving of its own article. Do we really need a page that lists anyone and everyone ever to come onto this island? That list might get pretty long before the show is over. Flashback Characters is OK because we can impose a tight constraint on who's listed there, but saying "Everyone on the island" might be troublesome. I'd personally trim it down to simple informational sentences like I wrote above. Baryonyx 00:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This section has gone up again several times. I will remove it as cruft and duplicated information every time. For the benefit of those who feel that these truly minor characters need to be on the page, I have left those who are not dead in the section restored by Rillian. If dead characters start showing up there again, they will be removed, because they already have entries under the Island Census section. Baryonyx 23:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why are we removing "Other Characters" from the list when they die? We don't remove major or secondary characters once they die. If so, Boone's page should come down and the Marshall's section should be removed. The top of this page is a list of characters: major, secondary and other. The bottom section is a census of how many people are still alive from the crash and those already living on the island. The names of the characters who have died are repeated simply to show how the accounting works. Rillian 19:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This section has come down several times for its crufty nature. These characters are so minor that some of them don't even have names. However, I'll leave it alone for a few days, until after "The Other 48 Days" airs. If, however, this list suddenly balloons after that episode (as I expect it will), the whole section will be wiped as the cruft it is. Baryonyx 02:08, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to point out that some of the "Others" that were glimpsed from the waist down (by Jin and Eko) could have been former tail-section survivors who've been taken by the "Others" and infected with the weird mind disease that Danielle was talking about. The teddy bear image seems to support this; maybe some people who are taken by the Others become part of whatever weirdness affected Danielle's crewmates. If this is the case then the total island census numbers are off because it counts the silent barefoot people as pre-crash inhabitants. I know that the basis of this argument is speculation; nevertheless I don't think the census can state for certain that these people were on the island before the crash. Ahkond 15:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't Arzt the person whose leg was caught in the first episode, the first person Jack saves? Notjim 13:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• No. This person was referred to as "Tourniquet Man", played by a different actor, and never re-appeared. Baryonyx 20:34, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• What makes a character a "main" character? It seems kind of black-and-white to me. Main characters are those that have had flashbacks featured. I disagree that Ana-Lucia, Eko, and Libby are "main" characters. They belong in the "Tail-Section Crash Survivors" area.
• And why the need for such exhaustive profiles of Ethan, Rousseau, and Desmond? This ought to be a LIST with brief descriptions, not a COMPENDIUM. If someone wants to provide comprehensive biographies on everyone, they ought to start a fan site, not clog up Wik.

First, please sign in when leaving a comment. Second, new sections go at the end. Third, main character listing is determined by those who receive star billing. If they're important enough to the producers to be listed as primary stars in the credits, then they count as main characters. By your logic, Shannon did not count as a main character until "Abandoned", because she had no "featured flashback episode" all her own until this past week. Sure, she had appearances in "Hearts and Minds"... but that was Boone's episode. Also, by your logic, Walt is still not a main character, since "Special" is Michael's episode, not Walt's.

Of course, your interpretation of these episodes may be different, which is exactly why we need an objective criterion (offical cast listings) established by the show's producers to determine who counts as a main character. All three of the new characters listed as mains (Ana-Lucia, Mr. Eko, Libby) are also listed in the opening credits as stars, with Michelle Rodriguez having been listed as such since the start of Season 2, before her character even appeared. I've noted in the past that I want to hedge my bets on including Mr. Eko and Libby as main characters, since they did not receive star billing until "Everybody Hates Hugo", but they've been added anyway, and I'm inclined to leave them there for now, especially since some upcoming episodes indicate an increased role for Eko (working with Locke).

As for "exhaustive profiles" of Ethan, Rousseau, and Desmond, they're not really that long (well, I'd agree that Danielle can be trimmed somewhat), and these are three examples of important, recurring characters who have been central to several plot developments. What's there is for the most part pretty good. If fact, I'd go so far as to say that I'm pleased that these characters have remained here, meaning that fans have avoided the temptation to go for the full on cruft and break them out into separate pages, which would just lead to their deletion. These sections used to be much, much worse, including individual entries for such major secondary characters "Tourniquet Man" and "Sullivan". These three are actually significant players in the island story to date, and I'm quite content leaving them where they are. Baryonyx 21:59, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Libby stated to Michael that 23 people survived the tail section crash. The census section on this page originally assumed that she was including Goodwin in that total and so the actual count was 22. This would mean that Ana-Lucia did not tell Libby the truth about Goodwin. However, in "Collision", Libby chastises Ana-Lucia about her treatment of Sayid and questions Ana-Lucia's ability to judge a person's character, saying "I saw you put Nathan in a pit to starve him." This would only be a criticism if Libby now knew Natha was not an "Other". From this, we can infer that Libby knows Natha was a fellow survivor, that Goodwin was the true spy, and so she would not have included him in the count she tells Michael. It also seems unlikely that Ana-Lucia could have returned from killing Goodwin and not have told the other survivors what happened. Consequently, I've updated the tail section count. Your thoughts? Rillian 18:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No. It's the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Just because Libby disapproves of Nathan being poorly treated doean't mean she KNOWS he was innocent, it just means she doesn't KNOW he was guilty. However they made a point of Ana-Lucia not telling them when she innitially came back so if they were to later find out it would have been shown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.160.131 (talk) 18:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Libby is being critical of A-L's ability to judge character (A-L thinks Sayid won't stop until he kills her). Using Nathan as an example in the criticism only makes sense if Libby knows that Nathan is innocent and that it shows A-L was a poor judge of character in that instance. Besides, A-L must have told the other survivors what she learned and the "ten minutes after the crash you come out of the jungle dry" clue. A-L says "we're safe now" when she returns from killing Goodwin. The other survivors have to ask "where's Goodwin?" Scenario 1: A-L says that the Others killed him. If so, if the Others were just a short climb away, how could they be safe now? Scenario 2: A-L says that Goodwin was an Other, she killed him before he could reveal their new location, and that's why they're now safe. Scenario 2 seems the only likely version. Rillian 14:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Any scenario is speculation; and constitutes Original Research -- the statement "we can infer" is a tell-tale sign that you are making a leap of reasoning not based on what's actually presented in the episode. Unless it's shown explicitly, we should not overlay our personal "theory" of what a character knows or doesn't know. —LeFlyman 01:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Then it is also Original Research to say that when Libby says there were 23 survivors, she is including Goodwin. There is no evidence that Libby did not know Goodwin was an Other. She would not include him in the count if he was, so ergo, the 23 survivors do not include Goodwin. Rillian 02:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Again, you are making inferences, as indicated by "She would not..." The best thing to do is to stick to what is shown/said on the series, without projecting your own explanation of what you think a character meant. Writing "Libby says there were 23 survivors" is factual. Adding "she is including Goodwin" or "she is not including Goodwin" is speculation, as you don't know one way or another. —LeFlyman 15:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I've updated the page to reflect the fact that Libby says there were 23 survivors. Whether Goodwin was included or not is speculation. Rillian 19:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rillian - please see my notes on the edit page. Simple math proves that Libby had to have included Goodwin. Otherwise, there is a completely unaccounted-for passenger. Danflave 23:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The following was removed, as non-canon; previous talk has already covered the removal of this section:

Survivors not mentioned in the television series

The producers of the series and the broadcasting network have released promotional material related to the series. Some of this material mentions additional characters who haven't been mentioned within the series itself. However, this material is authorized and controlled by the producers and network and can be considered as semi-official.

1. Janelle Granger - From the ABC promotional website's [diary]. The site also has a character named Larry.
2. Bob Jones, Sally Rafflethorpe, Jake Smith, Robert D. West - From the promotional website [oceanic-air].
3. Faith Harrington - From the novel Lost: Endangered Species by Cathy Hapka. The book also has a character named George.

—LeFlyman 15:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I thought The Lost Diary and Oceanic-Air.com are Canon. The Lost Diary is written by an assistant writer, while the producers supervise oceanic-air.com and design it as a clue site.

• First, please sign your comments. Second, the diary is most certainly not canon, as David Fury explained on The Fuselage, and was once written here. For clarity, I went and dug up the old text about the diary.

"Though some fans treat these as canonical, co-executive producer David Fury has explained on The Fuselage that the diaries "bare no relation to the actual show, except that they sometimes tease upcoming things."

Finally, though the Oceanic Air website is an official site, it cannot be confirmed that anything pertaining to the security system or other passengers is canonical, because none of it has appeared anywhere else. In fact, the site is probably more full of red herrings than it is of clues. As such, they have no place here, because of their place in the mythos is uncertain (and hence claiming either way is speculative). The trailer for the 2nd season showed no new material, so it can't be considered anything more than promotional material. Baryonyx 02:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]