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Resolved

Should not the title be, Dr Ernesto 'Che' Guevara?, I am just wondering because I was of the mind set that 'Che' graduated from medical school, I know it was not of the time of the "Motorcycle Diaries", but it may of been later, I am not objecting to the page just questioning. Bobbutcher (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:CREDENTIAL, article titles do not include personal titles. Grsz¹¹ 16:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but was 'Che' a doctor? and if so shouldn't it be stated somewhere in the artcle 86.139.140.138 (talk) 00:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BobButcher & IP 86, the article does state this at the end of the 'Early Life' section:

:: "Upon returning to Argentina, he completed his studies and received his medical diploma in June 1953, making him officially "Dr. Ernesto Guevara".[22]" --- Sourced to pg 98 of Jon Lee Anderson's Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life

Moreover, although there is an incorrect often repeated "urban legend" that he never graduated medical school, a copy of Guevara's original medical diploma (showing that he in fact graduated) can be found on [pg 75] of Becoming Che: Guevara's Second and Final Trip through Latin America, by Carlos 'Calica' Ferrer - Translated from the Spanish by Sarah L. Smith, Marea Editorial, 2006, ISBN 9871307071. Grsz11 is also correct that the "Dr." would not be used.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 06:17, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If we were to use a personal title, it would probably make more sense to use the one he was most frequently styled with, i.e., "Major General Ernesto 'Che' Guevara". Heather (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This line specifically "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man."[112] from the article is questionable (while not an expert, i have read that this line is a myth made after his death) and makes me question some of the other statements made about Gueverra. When checking the source provided it links back to the same wiki page and source: [112] is non-existent, as i'll bet a lot on this page are. Any of those who want to keep wiki to the standard it tries to be, please investigate this. 68.229.47.130 (talk) 00:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IP 68, the stated source is Jon Lee Anderson's Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life (pg 739). You are also incorrect in your statement that "it links back to the wiki page", once you click on the [112] number then click on 'Anderson 1997' which will take you to the fully listed ref down below (the entire article is set up this way) hence ALL of the refs are linked in contradiction to your remark that they are "non existent". Our "standard"(s) at Wikipedia are (among others) Wp:Verify, Wp:Reliable and Wp:Undue. Jon Lee Anderson's book (most commonly identified as the 'definitive' work on the subject in question) adheres to all of these policies. Now yes there have been several accounts of his last words --- for instance Castañeda's Compañero cites a different statement on pg 401, as does Taibo II's Guevara: Also Known As Che - which reports a different passage on pg 561 ---. I am fine with including a content note listing the several reported last phrases, however this "Shoot coward" phrase has become the most commonly listed last words in the majority of sources. What evidence do you have to dispute it?   Redthoreau (talk)RT 02:17, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, his executioner was interviewed in Adam Curtis' documentary 638 Ways to Kill Castro, and reported his last words as being along the lines of "tell my wife to remarry; I want her to be happy". Heather (talk) 17:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Heather, nice to meet you. To correct your assertion, the man interviewed in the documentary is not Che's executioner (Mario Terán), but rather CIA agent Félix Rodríguez who reportedly spoke with Che before leaving the schoolhouse to speak to Terán ("aim below the neck"). Rodríguez's comments are noted on [pg 738] of Anderson's book which he states were "Tell Fidel that he will soon see a triumphant revolution in America ... and tell my wife to remarry and to try and be happy." However, it is about 10 minutes later that according to Anderson [pg 739], Terán enters the schoolhouse alone and Che speaks the last words of "Shoot coward ... etc". Thus, the two are not mutually exclusive, and do not contradict one another.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 06:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User: Luis Napoles has attempted to remove the above information twice recently. Once claiming:

"Pov. Just because Cuban government was not opposed (and it was) by the US does not mean that Cuba was "US-backed" (is France US-backed? Relations with France are much friendlier than ever with Cuba)"

and again after I sourced the content to an NPR audio report stating:

"Not in the source, for obvious reasons"

... despite the fact that the given link ---> (click on the first "Listen Now") begins in the first 13 seconds (00:9-00:13) with this EXACT verbatim phrase.

With this in mind and in anticipation of a likely deletion forthcoming again, per - WP:VERIFY - I figured I would utilize this talk page to list "several" sources which corroborate the phrase "U.S.-backed Dictator" in reference to Fulgencio Batista.

The following below are all book titles (accessible by Google books) followed by the page number and verbatim phrase contained within the source:

Cuba: idea of a nation displaced - page 77 .... "US -backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Born in blood and fire: a concise history of Latin America‎ - Page 262 .... "US -backed military dictatorship"

The Columbia history of Latinos in the United States since 1960‎ - Page 149 .... "US -backed dictator, Fulgencio Batista"

Breaking the real axis of evil: how to oust the world's last dictators by 2025‎ - Page 231 .... "overthrow of the US -backed dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista"

America's other war: terrorizing Colombia‎ - Page 27 .... "overthrowing the US-backed dictator, Fulgencio Batista"

The Puerto Rican movement: voices from the diaspora‎ - Page 39 .... "the fall of US -backed Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Rockets and Missiles: The Life Story of a Technology‎ - Page 74 .... "overthrown US -backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Colonialism: an international, social, cultural, and political encyclopedia‎ - Page 157 .... "against US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Encyclopedia of Latino popular culture‎ - Page 75.... "overthrow of US -backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

The Greenwood Dictionary of World History‎ - Page 41 .... "overthrow of US -backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Che Guevara: In Search of Revolution‎ - Page 46 .... "US -backed Cuban government led by Fulgencio Batista"

Perils of Empire: The Roman Republic and the American Republic‎ - Page 127 .... "the US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

The Cold War, 1945-1991: Leaders and other important figures in the Soviet Union - Page 134 .... "Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista … against the US-backed Batista regime"

Facts about the 20th century‎ - Page 285 .... "overthrew US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Latino/a Thought: Culture, Politics, and Society‎ - Page 542 .... "oust the US -backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Cuba and the coming American Revolution‎ - Page 65 .... "US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs, and the Press‎ - Page 122 .... "with Fulgencio Batista, the US-backed dictator"

Children of Cain: violence and the violent in Latin America‎ - Page 111 .... "US -backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

The Iraq war: causes and consequences‎ - Page 36 .... "US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Robert F. Kennedy and the death of American idealism‎ - Page 54 .... "The US -backed dictator, General Fulgencio Batista"

Changing the history of Africa: Angola and Namibia‎ - Page 105 .... "US-backed dictator, Fulgencio Batista"

Endless enemies: the making of an unfriendly world‎ - Page 256 .... "Fulgencio Batista, the US -backed dictator"

If you don't prefer books, a quick web search also lists these web articles from the

Telegraph ... "US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Reuters ... "overthrow U.S.-backed dictator"

Washington Post ... "U.S.-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Capitalism Magazine = (now there's a bastion of Communism) ... "U.S.-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Boston Globe ... "US-backed Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista"

CNN ... "toppled a longstanding U.S.-backed dictator."

Irish Times ... "US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

BBC ... "US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista"

National Post ... "U.S.-backed dictator"

Miami Herald ... "U.S.-backed Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista"

Now Luis Napoles, I trust that you would agree that listing all of the above ref's in the lead might "be a bit much", thus if you can not provide any evidence to dispute this well known and accepted historical fact (which I document above) per Wp:Undue, WP:Verify, Wp:Reliable - and if there is not editor Wp:Consensus to dispute the above material or its inclusion - then please refrain from removing this important historical detail from the article going forward. Thanks   Redthoreau (talk)RT 15:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then you surely could substantiate what this "backing" consisted of. The United States was among the last countries in the Americas to recognize his government and probably the first country to demand end to it. The Cuban communists and labor unions were his core support groups, but of course the historical reality does not play well with your mission to demonize the United States by adding nominally sourced weasel words you refuse to substantiate. If he was "backed", then you should be able explain what it meant per WP:SUBSTANTIATE, or even better, a general definition of "backed".Luis Napoles (talk) 14:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, the WP:Lead is for a summary of the main points. Per WP:LEADCITE: "Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body." Your plethora of caveats, stipulations, and Wp:Pov Wp:Weasel explanations for such a commonly utilized phrase in nearly all the Wp:Reliable sources (i.e. “U.S.-backed Cuban Dictator”), not only makes for bad prose and composition as you have attempted to do here, but it violates WP:Undue. We are here to document the consensus of the sources, thus if the overwhelming majority of sources reflect a general opinion "i.e. “Batista was a U.S.-backed dictator", then our goal is for the article to reflect this view = that is WP:NPOV (and my view on the matter is irrelevant, as is yours). Treating opinions which have different levels of support as though they had equal levels of support is POV and, frankly, misinformative if not deceptive ... this would include your Wp:Fringe theory that Batista was, contrary to popular opinion and fact, a "Communist", "humble labor organizer", "peacefully elected President" - "Man of the people", who was overthrown by the United States. If you wish to further this revisionist & historical negationist view, I would suggest you either get your own blog, or attempt to gain some editor Wp:Consensus on the talk page for Fulgencio Batista, as this article would not be the relevant place to "correct" the historical majority through WP:Original Research – while inserting a litany of badly formed sentences which obstruct the flow of an article.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 14:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Having seen you attack editors in multiple articles, it was unsurprising that your response to issues in the article consisted of only personal attacks. If he was "backed", then you should be able explain what it meant per WP:SUBSTANTIATE. But you won't do that because you know that substantiation would make it look a lot closer to the reality.Luis Napoles (talk) 01:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, I have never attacked you as a person (I don’t even know who you are), I have though criticized your actions - which violate nearly all wiki policy in a range of ways. You are more than welcome to get your own blog, and rewrite the history however you like, however we are here to cite what the majority of published reliable sources say. They clearly use the phrase "U.S.-backed dictator" solely (in fact I could have sourced this to hundreds more books and articles). It is your prerogative to not agree with this description (some people still don't believe humans landed on the moon) - but it is not your prerogative to supplant wikipedia with your Wp:Fringe theories that Batista was a "leftist, labor, & Communist elected president & social reformer - who was an enemy of the U.S.". This unfortunately does not match the published reality.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 04:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You have never replied to simple request to substantiate what "US-backed" means, particularly during the year before the revolution. It took months before Batista received diplomatic recognition after 1952. The United States was the only Western country to put Batista under embargo (Batista bought arms from the British). Castro received diplomatic recognition within days and Castro's rebels were directly supported by the United States embassy - was Castro "US-backed"? Encyclopedia Britannica, which you earlier claimed to be a reliable source, has not a single word about support from the United States. Indeed, Encyclopedia Britannica says Batista was backed by "the army, the civil service, and organized labour". Of course, you will try to claim that Encyclopedia Britannica is not reliable anymore, or resort to attacking other editors like you have repeatedly done in the past. Luis Napoles (talk) 07:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, this is an article on Che Guevara, and thus a summarized form of "U.S.-backed dictator" is sufficient to describe the situation. -(1)- If you want to expand and include your caveats and convoluted stipulations, then I would recommend the Fulgencio Batista article (which you have already dramatically slanted) or maybe creating a new article on the foreign relations of the Batista regime etc. We are here on Wikipedia to document the published reality of the majority of Wp:Reliable sources. The majority of these sources utilize this description, and thus we follow in kind and echo them. If you would like to revise the record through Historical Negationism, then move your Wiki ‘crusade’ offline and work on getting published and challenging this often repeated description which you believe to be inaccurate (see WP:OR). It does not matter what you or I believe, what matters is the fact that the majority of nearly all sources describe Batista in this way. Changing such reality is not the mission or job of Wikipedia. -(2)- The U.S. was the only nation with the ability, power, and geographic proximity to put an embargo on Batista, and this came as his regime was on the verge of collapse in 1958 - thus that is irrelevant. -(3)- Of course the U.S. recognized the Castro regime; they had hoped he would be a U.S. ally and preserve the previous business relationships on the island. When he didn't, they became enemies. Thus yes Fidel was "U.S.-backed" for all of a few months after 1959. -(4)- Batista on the other hand had U.S. support for nearly 16 of the 17 years he was in power. -(5)- Britannica is a reliable source (one which you have tried to ironically challenge on the Batista & Fidel Castro articles themselves) but utilize now out of convenience. Your behavior is extremely transparent and inconsistent. The Britannica article you cite describes Batista as a: "Cuban dictator" who was "jailing his opponents, using terrorist methods, and making fortunes for himself and his associates" while also describing him again as a "brutal dictator”, who was “controlling the university, the press, and the Congress” while he “embezzled huge sums from the soaring economy." However you censored nearly all of this from the Batista article recently and (with the lack of ref’s as your pretext) - rewrote it in a near Orwellian manner. Yes Britannica does not address U.S. support, but they also don't deny it. Luckily (and I guess unfortunately for you) we have the other 95 % of sources which address the issue to call on - which back the current version. -(6)- You can continually claim that I always personally attack you and not your actions, but just like your often innacurate & biased advocacy, it will not make it true.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 08:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The editor Redthoreau has repeatedly deleted citation needed tags from the article. Among other things, the lead claims that Mr. Guevara thought "economic inequalities were an intrinsic result of monopoly capitalism, neocolonialism, and imperialism, with the only remedy being world revolution." Yet the entire article has no reference to "neocolonialism" where this could be checked, nor is "world revolution" mentioned anywhere in the article. The same editor seems to be fond of using terms such as "prolific writer" and deleting any references to Mr. Guevara's thoughts regarding the overall success of his Bolivian mission.Luis Napoles (talk) 14:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, per WP:LEADCITE:

::"The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be cited. Because the lead will usually repeat information also in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source. There is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The need for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus."

Now why is this relevant? (1) Your Wp:tendentious practice of sprinkling citation needed tags throughout leads is nearly always in reference to easily verifiable material (by this I mean in the majority of sources, which unfortunately you seem not to put much weight in). (2) The phrase you mention at one time had ref links after each word (i.e. "Monopoly Capitalism", "Neocolonialism", "Imperialism", "World Revolution") however there was editor Wp:consensus nearly a year or two back not to have so many ref links in the lead per Wp:Mos. I can easily ref each of these words, and it looks like I will unfortunately have to in order to play your continuing game of "tag to annoy those you edit war with". (3) Notice how the policy uses the word "likely to be challenged", the reason why this phrase does not include a ref link after each word, is that for over 2 years it has never been challenged by any of the thousands (400,000 per month) readers of the article - as anyone with even an elementary background knowledge of Che Guevara and his philosophy, will instantly recognize that these "isms" were the "ills" that he believed plagued those societies in which he wished to spark revolution. (4) Note the words "editorial consensus", this is something I have yet to EVER witness you seek out in all of your pov-laden edits. You and you solely would like this phrase and others to be referenced (which I am glad to do), but please do not act as if you have followed proper wiki protocol in requesting such sources. You seem to work backwards (overtag, and then use the talk page to complain about the removal of the tag) - when the proper order should be (inquire on the talk page about the source for the material and then if consensus is to tag, then do so). You also have not used the article talk page to provide rationale for your desired insertion of disputed material (i.e. "no local support"). (5) Lastly, my only "agenda" as you say, is to follow wiki policy, and ensure that your Wp:Soapbox solo pov-pushing of anti-Castro/Che/Cuban govt material - bordering on mere WP:SPA advocacy and not encyclopedia building (I'll let other editors view your editing history for themselves) be slowed down for the sake, quality, and neutrality of this overall project.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 15:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your behavior seems to be attacking other editors instead of addressing the issue. The article has not a single mention of "neocolonialism" outside the lead. That was just my observation, and you did not even attempt to deny it.Luis Napoles (talk) 01:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, I have more than addressed the issue and since complied with your initial request of sourcing the statement. The current given source states (in the words of Che Guevara):

::::"The struggle for liberation from a foreign oppressor; the misery caused by external events such as war, whose consequences privileged classes place on the backs of the exploited; liberation movements aimed at overthrowing neo-colonial regimes — these are the usual factors in unleashing this kind of explosion."

Since the statement is addressing Guevara's own personal conclusion, this more than suffices.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 05:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As of current revision, you have not addressed the issue, although you finally added at least some source. Anyone can search for "colonialism" in the revision and find out that it's only mentioned in the lead. The source you finally added does not claim that "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to conclude that the region's ingrained economic inequalities were an intrinsic result of monopoly capitalism, neocolonialism, and imperialism, with the only remedy being world revolution". So far the claim is your original research and Wikipedia does not publish original research. If you have a source for it, you should add it to the article. If you don't have a source, personal attacks won't solve the issue.Luis Napoles (talk) 07:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, the source does not need to claim this phrase verbatim; however the encapsulated idea is contained within this source (along with many others). Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of Che Guevara would recognize the evident accuracy of the aforementioned statement. Moreover, the given source has an array of mentions of "Capitalism" + Guevara stating how in his view "monopoly capitalists" pervert the law of value. There are also several mentions of "imperialism" (although in theory I could utilize any number of essays by Che on this subject if you prefer). Challenging this statement would be as absurd as someone questioning whether Martin Luther King Jr. ever spoke out about "racism". Nearly every speech by Guevara post 1959 deals heavily with what he deemed were the negative outcomes of "monopoly capitalism", "neo-colonialism" (+ colonialism really), and "imperialism" (the subject he probably railed against more than any other). I have plenty of sources, and would be happy to list personal quotes by Guevara dealing with these issues upon your good faith request. I can provide further documentation here on the TP if you would like to challenge the undue weight or accuracy of these remarks with your own referenced & reliable material. Right now however, it is 95 % of the material on Che versus your unqualified & unverified opinion.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 09:12, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You have a major problem with WP:V. The claim that "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to conclude that the region's ingrained economic inequalities were an intrinsic result of monopoly capitalism, neocolonialism, and imperialism, with the only remedy being world revolution" is your interpretation of Guavara's letter. Wikipedia does not publish original research. Luis Napoles (talk) 10:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, I have cited each word to its own article, that contains a clear phrase pointing out each of these issues. My edits are based solely on the words of Guevara himself, not my own original research as you claim. Actually reading the material is not "original" it is merely research and referencing.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 14:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• In Anderson p. 95-96 there is nothing about how Che was transformed by the endemic poverty he witnessed. There is only a general Che's statement about how "vagabonding though our America" has changed him. Even if Che somewhere said something in the context of witnessed poverty such statement should be attributed to him, and not stated as a fact.
• Anderson on p. 398 talks about events after Fidel became prime minister, not about Che's views after his trip throughout Latin America. -- Vision Thing -- 19:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vision Thing, Anderson pg 95-96 certainly was citing the "transformed" portion of the sentence in Guevara's post trip remarks that "The person who wrote these notes died upon stepping once again onto Argentina soil, he who edits and polishes them, ‘I’ am not I, at least I am not the same I as before. That vagabonding through our 'America' has changed me more than I thought." However, to understand the context of that remark one would need to read the preceding chapter from pgs 71-95 on his trip in order to understand the encapsulating sentiment and take note of the numerous encounters with poverty and the effect it had on him personally. Nevertheless, I went ahead and utilized his August 19, 1960 speech to the Cuban Militia --> Ernesto Che Guevara: On Revolutionary Medicine - where Guevara outlines specifically the effect that traveling and viewing poverty had on him ... i.e. "I came into close contact with poverty, hunger and disease; with the inability to treat a child because of lack of money; with the stupefaction provoked by the continual hunger and punishment, to the point that a father can accept the loss of a son as an unimportant accident, as occurs often in the downtrodden classes of our American homeland" etc --- per the second instance you mention I have utilized the same 1960 speech by Guevara where he speaks of the Arbenz coup at the behest of the United Fruit Co, where he "realized a fundamental thing: For one to be a revolutionary doctor or to be a revolutionary at all, there must first be a revolution (continued) ..." --- This very common information you wish to have cited is in an array (nearly all) of sources on Guevara, so I am not exactly sure how precise of wording you are looking for, but I do believe these passages achieve a near verbatim idea. If you are pleased with these citations let me know, as it is important to me that you are confident in the sourcing and accuracy. I can certainly look up more if you wish and have nearly every Guevara related text at my disposal. Thanks, and nice to meet you.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 21:57, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vision Thing, you right. If he said "endemic", it should be inside quotes, if he did not, it should not be there.Luis Napoles (talk) 01:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, I would strongly disagree. Guevara personally using the term "endemic" is not the only threshold wherein the term could be utilized. The wiki article is not entirely a collection of verbatim quoted statements. Most of the time the editor needs to summarize (WP:Summary) the information for the reader. In the given source, Guevara does not specifically use the word "endemic" (defined as - "Prevalent in a particular area or region"), but what does he describe? The answer to that would be = "subjugated continents" where "the downtrodden classes" and "authentic offspring of hunger and misery" suffer under "adverse governments and social conditions which prevent progress" along with "privations in childhood" and "hunger". Guevara then decrees in the same given source that "monopolies" and "creatures of malnutrition" need to be "overthrown" so that the "entire social collectivity" can experience "profound social change" in "the mental structure of the people" on top of the "ruins of a decayed system" where Guevara wants man to "build the new system which will bring about the absolute happiness of the people". --- Now in the spirit of expediency, "endemic" acts as descriptive term, for capturing Guevara's prevailing personal sentiment, as the latter would be to long for the lead.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 05:53, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It should be inside quotes or use word like "perceive" instead of "witness". It's a claim about Guevara's opinions.Luis Napoles (talk) 07:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, of course it is a personal claim by Guevara (but also backed up by biographers). Who would be a better authority on the "opinion" of the effect of traveling through South America on Che Guevara - than Che Guevara himself? Are you also claiming that there was not actual poverty in South America that Che encountered on his 2 trips and almost 2 years traversing nearly every nation in Latin America - which included leper colonies, barrios, mines, rafting the amazon, and traveling the majority of the time on trucks with as Anderson puts it on [pg 80] "Indians with their filthy ponchos, their lice, their unwashed stench". Have you read The Motorcycle Diaries? Or the account of his second journey a year later? Furthermore, [pg 63] of Anderson's biography notes: "The injustice of the lives of the socially marginalized people he had befriended along his journey - lepers, hobos, detainees, hospital patients - bore witness to the submerged turbulence of the region". I am not exactly sure what your problem with the wording is, other than the obvious fact that you detest anything that provides a background and context to Guevara's eventual radicalization.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 10:06, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The figure of 20,000 deaths under Batista seems exaggerated. This website "http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat7.htm#Cuba52" lists several sources, and there seems to be a consensus among the non-partisan ones that 5000 people died on both sides during the civil war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.121.228 (talk) 01:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, Castro himself accused Batista of only some hundreds of deaths and the official number published after Castro's victory was 898 (more than half of them guerillas). The "20,000" was invented later.^[1] Luis Napoles (talk) 01:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IP 88, first off your "source" (I use this term very loosely) is a self published Wp:SPS personal blog/website by a non-notable individual (Matthew White) where he asks for monetary donations. This site is essentially not much different from a credibility standpoint than a Myspace page or even a user page here on Wikipedia. Per Wp:Reliable, this is not a legitimate source for any claim. Nevertheless, in regards to your statement ... this 'site' (which even acknowledges the 20,000 number was supported in Newsweek Magazine) seems to be addressing the "Civil War" from 1958-1959 and thus 5,000 deaths - whereas the cited 20,000 killed in the article under Batista (sourced to a 2007 Che biography by German historian & author Frank Niess), is presumably the given number of people killed by his regime collectively during his last 7 years in office (1952-1959). Moreover, per Wp:Verify, the Australian Dept. of Foreign Affairs in 1959 (as pointed out in their 'Current Notes on International Affairs'‎ - Page 261) stated that = "Batista had, particularly in the latter part of his term of office, ruled by terror" ... where "as many as 20,000 Cubans had met violent deaths". If you don't prefer an Australian point of view, you could use the 1959 United States Senate Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws by the Committee on the Judiciary (digitized online), which noted that = "Batista in Cuba was regarded as the butcher of some 20,000 or 25,000 of its finest youth." This matches the belief 10 years later by the 1969 United States National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence which published a report entitled: 'Violence in America: Historical and Comparative Perspectives: A Report' - where on Page 582 it states that = "It is clear that counterterror became the strategy of the Batista government ... It has been estimated by some that as many as 20,000 civilians were killed."   Redthoreau (talk)RT 07:07, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Luis, that would be incorrect. [1], you are referring to the death total during the 1956-1959 war against the guerrillas - whereas the 20,000 total is in reference to those Cuban citizens killed during Batista's reign from 1952-1959 - the vast majority of whom were not part of any armed resistance under Castro (or even Communist sympathizers), but merely individuals who objected to Batista's dictatorial rule during that time and who fell victim to those employed as part of Batista's internal security apparatus (i.e. BRAC etc). [2] "Invented" I guess is in the eye of the beholder. As I am sure you are aware, many historical events have a death count that is altered over time as more information comes about. However, this 20,000 total has remained consistent in the majority (see Wp:Undue) of sources (not all) from 1959 to the presently cited 2007 biography.

Some published examples of this include:

Bolivia, Press and Revolution 1932-1964‎ - Page 347 .... "Batista had been responsible for perhaps as many as 20,000 deaths"

Controversy Over Cuba‎ - Page 3 (by the D.C. Committee on National Legislation, hardly Pravda) .... "Some l9,000 to 20,000 Cubans were murdered during Batista’s regime, some were tortured, others bled to death after being castrated"

Then again as author Abbott Joseph Liebling notes in his 1981 book The Press‎ - Page 267: "On the international scene, the 20,000 shootings by Batista got considerably less space than the 700 by Castro"

Lastly Luis, I know from our previous edit conflicts on other articles that you believe Youtube to be a reliable reference for material (although I on principle do not) – thus I would point you to ---> this short clip from the documentary Fidel: The Untold Story and the section of the clip from [1:03-1:09] right after testimony by Wayne Smith (former head of the United States Interests Section in Havana). Note the figure given and terminology used.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 08:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Redthoreau, Youtube is not a reliable source and unlike your attack attempts to claim, I have never said anything like that.

You are picking sources which do not study the history, but rely on the figures which were invented in the 1960s.

Here are some papers that studied the subject:

Mario Lazo, Dagger in the Heart : American Policy Failures in Cuba (1968): "total deaths ... not more than 900 on both [sides]".

Fidel Castro himself talked about a thousand deaths, before the 20,000 was invented. (Timothy P. Wickham-Crowley)

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