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This reference is used in several places in the article:

• Kenneth S. Kendler, MD; Cynthia M. Bulik, PhD; Judy Silberg, PhD; John M. Hettema, PhD, MD; John Myers, MS; Carol A. Prescott, PhD Childhood Sexual Abuse and Adult Psychiatric and Substance Use Disorders in Women Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2000;57:953-959

The above reference does not support this text it footnotes: " The nature of this association is controversial."

The paper concludes as follows:

" Women with CSA have a substantially increased risk for developing a wide range of psychopathology. Most of this association is due to more severe forms of CSA and cannot be explained by background familial factors. Although other biases cannot be ruled out, these results are consistent with the hypothesis that CSA is causally related to an increased risk for psychiatric and substance abuse disorders."

Since it does not support the text, the footnote has been removed. The other uses of the reference in the article have not been changed. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 23:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The idea was to cite references that support a causal relationship between CSA and adult psychological adjustment, yet document the existence of controversy over that. Kendler cites numerous sources that dispute the assumption that current evidence establishes a causal relationship. "Although women who report a history of childhood sexual abuse (CSA) are clearly at increased risk for psychiatric disorders in adulthood, 4 critical issues about this association remain unclear. [...] Second, CSA often occurs along with multiple other risk factors that reflect disturbed family and parent-child relationships. Is the CSA-psychopathology association causal or is it due to these confounded risk factors? Third, CSA is a sensitive subject. Could the CSA-psychopathology association arise through reporting bias wherein persons with psychiatric illness are more likely to recall and report abuse experiences?" The Briere and Elliot paper is similar; It says that a critical issue "well known to behavioral scientists" is the question of whether the CSA-psychopathology association is causal, and cites conflicting findings. IMO, both support the sentence. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 00:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You changed the prior sentence earlier, to remove the causal link and re-state it as "Child sexual abuse has been associated with...". That edit has not yet been vetted, it's still under consideration, but leaving that aside for the moment: There's no controversy at all about CSA being associated with those symptoms, and no controversy is indicated in the text you quoted. There are questions about how much of the effects may actually be caused by the abuse, and what effects may result from confounding factors such as generalized family dysfunction (that also may include sexual abuse in the history of the parents). While those confounding factors might bear on causality, even that is not a "controversy", it's just a question relevant to the research. And the confounding factors do not create any question of the association of the symptoms with a history of CSA - that's even stated in the words you quoted right here in this discussion. So, no, that source does not support the claim of controversy. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 00:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It says that there's controversy over the nature of the association, not whether the association exists at all. Would you prefer if it was stated more explicitly? "The causality of this association is controversial" -- or, "the causality of this association is unclear." --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 00:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a controversy, it's a research methods question. Mentioning it at all in the intro is undue weight and off-topic. With careful restatement of the text to match the source, and sensitive consideration to NPOV and due weight, there might be an appropriate place to mention deeper into the article that there are some questions about the ways in which the research shows the association and what methods might be considered to control for that. The vast majority of research shows otherwise though, that the association is clear. Fringe theories, if they are mentioned at all, don't belong in the intro, they can be mentioned in proportion to their weight in the overall range of sources, but should not distract the topic away from due weight based on the vast majority of sources. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 00:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing to back up the idea that the problematised causality of trauma-reactions in CSA is a fringe theory. Indeed, it is a key point and requires stressing right at the start, to avoid the misconception that trauma-reactions are always direct and inevitable results of CSA. What we could do to integrate this NPOV point is to describe the causal chain as challengeable or problematic. I think that would better reflect the literature. Lambton ^T/_C 02:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The idea was to cite references that support a causal relationship between CSA and adult psychological adjustment, yet document the existence of controversy over that.--Exactly. And that's setting up a straw man that doesn't exist. Refinements in the research that can better assist practititoners and clients are being conducted to help clients, not to "question assumptions of harm," and trying to twist them to suit that purpose is pov pushing (of a fringe view) and cherrypicking random studies to make a syn argument.-PetraSchelm (talk) 02:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, it comes down to a soft-subjective argument and nothing from a rational perspective. All you are offering is one form of professional discourse. Sure, you can probably go through a whole career in pschiatry (and unfortunately the social sciences) without hearing a dissenting viewpoint on CSA, but there exists a life's reading of literature from clinical studies and the humanities that goes dead against the (former) assumptions of the opening paragraph, in addition to that which brings it into question. Lambton ^T/_C 13:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "dissenting viewpoint" you are talking about regarding "question assumption of harm" it is an extreme minority/fringe viewpoint that involves inflating Rind and Sandfort to a level of signifigance they do not have, and making syn arguments by cherrypicking other random studies a la Mhamic. This is where the WP:WEIGHT of opinion matters, and you cannot reconfigure the weight of expert opinion in a new way/for the first time here. That is not particular to this subject, it applies to all subjects in Wikipedia.-PetraSchelm (talk) 13:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are additional points that make questioning the assumption of harm a tad off topic to the article: This article is about ABUSE. Abuse takes many forms, and exists on a large spectrum, which can include kidnapping a random child and holding them in a bunker for weeks while repeatedly, violently assaulting them. Would anyone question if this was harmful, indeed anything short of catastrophic? No researcher dares to make such a claim. At the other end of the spectrum are adults who solicit a child to engage in a sexual act with them, and the child, for outward appearances, complies. The harm is less than the aforementioned scernario. But it is still there, and even if it is not 100% likely to occur, it still is harmful too often to ever make it "safe." It seems inappropriate to give research regarding only this end of the spectrum so much weight, when it is only applicable to this end. Ultimately, we must ask the questions: What was the purpose of these studies? Not what they imply, but why were they conducted? Legitimus (talk) 16:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But child sexual abuse is not often seperated into 'ends.' The research in question -- on causality -- studies everything from torture to sexual requests. Even if there was seperation, activities that are not obviously traumatic make up a large portion of CSA, so the weight wouldn't be undue. Some criticism of the indiscriminate definition of CSA may be helpful. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 17:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"A spectrum of responses are possible based on the circumstances of the abuse." This revision retains none of the original's meaning. It's a seperate sentence which should be debated on its own merits. However, I would agree to using less inflammatory wording, if that's possible. How's this: "There are several hypotheses on the causality of this association." --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 17:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds better.Legitimus (talk) 18:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"An article might have a disproportionately large "criticism" section, giving the impression that the nominal subject is hotly contested by many people, when in fact the criticism is merely selected opinions and the section creates an artificial controversy. This, too, gives the reader a false impression about reality even though the details may be true."-PetraSchelm (talk) 20:37, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, please discuss this before doing that again. You could end up on one of the administrator's boards. Lambton ^T/_C 21:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This kind of "well intentioned" behaviour - removal of sourced material - whole sections without proper discussion or consensus is no more functionally proper than outright vandalism. It is also likely to lead to accusations of POV warfare and other editors opposing your edits for no other reason but their lack of popular support. You might even end up with a much expanded article that covers the topics raised in the removed section.

"Coatrack" does not oppose the existence of crit sections. It opposes oversized and misrepresentative sections. The body of CSA research that you would call "controversial" is actually quite large, and spans far beyond medicine.

The same goes for Jack. Lambton ^T/_C 21:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a coatrack. Let's post at the fringe theories talkpage, and perhaps at the medicine wikiproject for more outside views.-PetraSchelm (talk) 21:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please do. And link me when you have posted your complaints. Lambton ^T/_C 21:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I reverted to the previously accepted (original) version, as is proper when sourced material is to be assessed. Lambton ^T/_C 21:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"previously accepted (original) version" -- that version was never "accepted", it was always a coatrack in need of attention. Those fringe theories have been a problem in this article for a long time. A footnote with a study does not make a fringe theory mainstream. That section was causing major undue weight in the article. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 23:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I posted on Fringe Theories myself. Lambton ^T/_C 21:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And here's the link (affirming coatracking, and "very fringy"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Child_Sexual_Abuse-PetraSchelm (talk) 22:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was unfamiliar with the coatrack policy until now. My impression is that the controversial subject matter, at the very least, occupies far too much space. It needs to be condensed. I will try a variation, retaining the sources.Legitimus (talk) 01:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It might be appropriate to devote about four sentences to Rind--two of them rebuttal--on the basis that there are sources demonstrating a public controversy ten years ago. I'm not even sure I fully support that. Definitely nothing else merits mention at all. There are no sources claiming "controversy" for any other research except pro-pedophile websites.-PetraSchelm (talk) 01:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've reconsidered a bit. As you know, my impression of the material in question has been that it not particularly relevant to the subject at hand. And as I have reintegrated many times, the research does not prove what PPA seem to think it does. Really, so-bloody-what if some subjects regard what happened as "positive?" That have absolutely nothing to do with a) the actual act that occurred and b)that subject's pathology and/or interpersonal problems. And a lack of measurable pathology on a self-reported survey given to adults, while statistically sound, is not so generalizable. While perhaps the material could have a place in the PPA article, just because that article is so extremely disputed is no excuse to make "squatters" here.Legitimus (talk) 01:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) I agree that the controversy section is being given far too much weight in the article. The controversy itself is a tiny minority view. Perhaps Rind should be given a sentence or two, but more condemning of Rind, since more papers and the media both roundly condemned the study. ResearchEditor (talk) 02:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that since Rind has its own article, and is decribed in detail in the pro-pedophile activism article, that it is ok to skip it here. According to the fringe policy, "Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them." Rind has more than enough coverage elsewhere already.-PetraSchelm (talk) 04:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am in agreement that there should be no section on "controversy" (barring maybe passing mentions for people like Bruce Rind and Ralph Underwager). But anyone who knows nothing and says nothing of the tens or even hundreds of articles that seriously challenge the commonly held assumptions of what is admittedly a majority of Abuse theorists, needs to take a course in child sexuality. As would be the case with any article, these opinions (as long as they mention C S A or challenge the related beliefs) should be mentioned throughout. Louisa Petit-Ladoumegue (talk) 14:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The following sentence can find a place in the section on psychological effects, but it does not belong in the intro:

There are several hypotheses on the causality of this association.^[14][15][16] A spectrum of responses are possible, based on the circumstances of the abuse.^[17]

In the intro, it's a distraction that goes off into subtle details and obscures the main topic. The intro is to provide an overview and context for the rest of the article. There is no controversy that children are harmed by sexual abuse; the intro doesn't need to say there is a "spectrum of responses"; it already lists many examples. There is room elsewhere in the article for exploring details of how science is tracking the sequelae and how research is working to discover the way the effects are caused and how to improve treatments. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 23:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. There is disagreement over causality and most certainly over the frequency, type and degree of harm in CSA. It looks nice, simple and attractive, but it's a whitewash. Lambton ^T/_C 23:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Causality" is from the same straw man family as "universalism." Psychology is a soft science that deals more in associatons. There will never be research that shows that any adverse event is causally responsible for ensuing psychological distress. And there is no disagreement over causality and most certainly over the frequency, type and degree of harm in CSA. The range of effects observed is a range of effects, not "disagreement." The only sources who interpret it as "controversy" or "disagreement" are the pro-pedophile advocates like NAMBLA's David Miller, and Arne Frederiksen, whom we have been discussing as sources on the pro pedophile activism talkpage.-PetraSchelm (talk) 00:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Causality is impossible to prove, period, but even in psychology there's a point which must be reached before it can be assumed. The 9 widely used criteria proposed by Austin Hill in The Environment and Disease: Association or Causation are as applicable to this as medicine, and they're yet to be completely met.

Pro-paedophile activism is irrelevant. The sources cited in the sentence Jack removed are not paedophiles. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only sources who make the arguments you're making are, as I noted, pro-pedophile cranks like Arne Frederiksen--it would have to be attributed to them, which makes it clear why it's not appropriate or relevant here. The study of the relationship between sexual abuse and psychological distress is conducted to better help people who have been sexually abused, not to "debunk" it on "causality" grounds. Twisting the research to make crank OR arguments is exactly that; in addition to OR we also call it "source-mining." (Meanwhile, wasn't 'causality" User: Voice of Britain's big bugaboo? Interesting that you share the preoccupation...)-PetraSchelm (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a very general statement, fitting of the lead. To exclude it would mislead the reader into believing that the nature of these associations has been ascertained definitely. It would be like noting in the Marijuana article that "smoking has been associated with schizophrenia" without adding a caveat to that for another 15kb of text. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Patently absurd, as your example demonstrates: marijuana has been associated with schizophrenia is an exceptional claim, which triggers WP:REDFLAG. Child sexual abuse is associated with negative psychological sequelae is not an exceptional claim, the opposite is the case.-PetraSchelm (talk) 16:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pet: You state that Causality is a SM argument, and can never be proven (a position that until recently was opposed throughout the article). Then you state "disagreement over causality and most certainly over the frequency, type and degree of harm in CSA". Is "harm IN CSA" not your own assumption of causality? Lambton ^T/_C 16:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• We're here to report the WEIGHT of opinion, not to humor your OR fringe ideas about "causality," reprised from Arne Frederiksen.-PetraSchelm (talk) 16:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Pet. Whay are you bullying other users off this page and recalling complex and well-read reasons for blocks that appear to have been handed out months before you even appeared, with your multiple references to obscure policies? Lambton ^T/_C 16:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The comment by Luisa is now visible. Lambton ^T/_C 16:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've read through the entire talk archives and revision history of this article in the last week, so now I am well aware of the history of pov pushing here by an extreme fringe to include the same bs, using the same words and the same tired arguments, for years. -PetraSchelm (talk) 16:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If true, that is a valid explanation, although I disagree strongly with both your application of the article's history to present editors, and the way that you have applied it. I feel that it stifles constructive debate about progressing the article, and leads to the devaluation of other's opinions on arbitrary grounds. Lambton ^T/_C 16:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arne Frederiksen and other pro-paed whacks are not relevant, Petra, and you're obsessive mentioning of them qualifies as a red herring. The sources cited are reliable and highly notable (one quarter of CSA victims deserve at least a few sentences devoted to their outcomes). --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 16:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The arguments you're trying to make are OR source-mining; in order to attribute them to a source we would need a source--the only sources I have ever seen are layperson PPAs like Arne Frederksen, Mhamic, etc.-PetraSchelm (talk) 16:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The information I want in the article is sourced. WP:OR does not apply to discussion pages, and I'm not advocating the inclusion of my arguments here in the article. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 17:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst Rind is not the definitive analysis, I feel that since the definition of CSA is so broad, we are going to have to take into account more representative analyses of CSA victims, as opposed to self-fulfilling clinical population whitewashes that equate to similar studies on onanism and erase hope for victims of abuse (or according to some, "ideas"). Lambton ^T/_C 17:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're implying that the medical community purports that damage resulting from abuse is untreatable. Do you have any sources to corroborate this? And what in heck do you mean by "onanism"? You know what that means, right? Legitimus (talk) 18:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am not. I am suggesting that a certain kind of article is being given prominence, i.e. articles that thoroughly dismiss nearly all CSA as devastating. As I was not referring to recovery, maybe I should have used a less PC term than victim (involved, etc). I did, however note that some see themselves as the victims of "ideas". Some academics (E.g. Money, Malon) have compared the sample bias in CSA studies to that of Onanism. This rather neat parallel can be seen in the mental-health samples used to find excessive masturbators, and then conclude that masturbation was harmful. The same goes for the "discovery" of CSA, i.e. it was found to be most common in those who already had mental health problems, or were in some way institutionalised. Lambton ^T/_C 18:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But you have not provided a scholarly source the espouses the idea that it is devastating (or other over-the-top descriptions). Now, I understand what you mean by the sample bias, but it becomes moot in the practice of medicine. You don't treat someone who does not present symptoms (why would they come in the office in the first place?), and a history of sexual abuse in a patient is just part of their history. You don't treat the abuse (what would I do, erase their memory?), you treat the person.Legitimus (talk) 12:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"In most settings, children who have been sexually abused are routinely offered treatment even if asymptomatic (Beutler, Williams, and Zetzer, 1994; Finkelhor and Berliner, 1995)." (from Child Sexual Abuse: Is the Routine Provision of Psychotherapy Warranted?) --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and people who are exposed to rusty nails are routinely offfered tetanus shots.-PetraSchelm (talk) 21:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The definition of CSA goes beyond reported abuse, in both legal and medical spheres. If CSA is being presented as any sex between an adult and a minor (as it is in the law), this article should address research into any sex between an adult and a minor, including that which is unreported. If not, we should strive to define CSA as abuse that leads to convictions or institutionalisation/MH care of some sort. In this case, we should also start an article for the phenomenon of sex between adults and minors - an article that does not view only a select population through one theoretical framework. Lambton ^T/_C 14:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't even make sense: the definition of child sexual abuse goes beyond reported abuse"--the definition of child sexual abuse is child sexual abuse, period.-PetraSchelm (talk) 14:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It makes perfect sense:

"Child sexual abuse refers to sexual abuse of a child by an adult or some other person significantly older or in a position of power or control over the child, where the child is used for sexual stimulation of another person.[1] In addition to overt sexual interactions, child sexual abuse also includes invitations or requests by an adult regarding sexual forms of kissing, hugging and any other sexual activities."

Illegality? Clinical referral? No.

What do the vast majority of studies used in this article use as samples? Illegality and clinical referrals. Lambton ^T/_C 14:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But the material has nothing important to offer to the subject matter. Harm is present in the majority even with unreported samples. Shooting at people doesn't always cause injury or death (one can miss). While the numbers exist, we don't have studies under Spree killer that indicate that X% of people involved don't die or suffer any physical injuries. It would be irrelevant and would detract from the matter that a person is acting on another without consent and with great risk of harm.Legitimus (talk) 15:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Correct representations do not detract from anything. You do appear to be making a moral argument here.

Spree killer concerns the act of killing, which always causes death. CSA abuses all involved, but the consequences are not all the same - as with killing. To focus on a clinical sample as representative of the whole population would be to make the same mistake as with onanism.

There are also popular surveys of older boys involved with men which return overwhelmingly positive responses. To discount all of this would be to discount the diversity observed within the paradigm, and to neglect the sociological aspect of what is a medical-dominated subject (in this article at least). Lambton ^T/_C 15:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we're limited to reliable sources which reflect the WP:WEIGHT of opinion here. We haven't even included studies which aren't replicated extensively elsewhere yet, like the Harvard/Maclean studies showing permanent brain damage/changes in the nervous system following sexual abuse.-PetraSchelm (talk) 15:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. That study Jovin mentioned, is that Sandfort(1987)? It has not been reproducible, nor did it have a good sample size (only 25 subjects who may have been cherry-picked), and there was some manipulation involved to get the "positive" responses. Further, many symptoms are not evident or measurable until later. Of course I'm merely reinterating what Finkelhor and Mrazek said (I think this debate already happened?). Sandfort is the only study I know of that showed a majority "positive" recollection, and contained no information on negative psychological effects, either within or outside the subject's awareness.

Also, when I used spree killing as an analogy, I was referring to the individual persons involved, not the entire event. Perhaps drive-by shooting would have been better. They miss all the time, but it doesn't make it ok.Legitimus (talk) 17:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a long, circular history of repeating the same tired OR fringe arguments at this article:-PetraSchelm (talk) 17:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Child_sexual_abuse&diff=prev&oldid=128426968

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Child_sexual_abuse&diff=prev&oldid=128416675

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Child_sexual_abuse&diff=prev&oldid=132121661

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Child_sexual_abuse/Archive_4&diff=prev&oldid=132123769

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Child_sexual_abuse&diff=prev&oldid=132131399

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Child_sexual_abuse&diff=prev&oldid=130160888

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pedophilia&diff=prev&oldid=128001231

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Child_sexual_abuse&diff=prev&oldid=127936763

You are referring to one editor. I do not disagree with all of the edits. Look at the rest of the article copies to see why. Lambton ^T/_C 17:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But, funnily enough, the "one person" was also the sockpuppet disrupting here yesterday.-PetraSchelm (talk) 12:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked with no evidence put forward, yes. Lambton ^T/_C 14:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reposting my comment from Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard here, for posterity. It's in response to Petra's claim that Rind has faded into total obscurity on all but pro-paedophile websites.

Parts of Rind et al. (1998) are fairly unique, actually, and it continues to be cited in the literature. Google Scholar turns up 364 papers citing it. That's almost half the number of hits that the most notable study on CSA (Kendall-Tackett et al.) has, despite the 5-year advantage of Kendall-Tackett. Some citations of Rind in peer-reviewed journals (and one Ph.D dissertation) from 2008:

• A Ph.D dissertation: "A 1998 meta-analytic study examined the relationship between CSA and ED and found a statistically significant, but small, relationship (r = .06) among the sample of college students without a clinical diagnosis of eating disorders (Rind, Tromovitch, & Bauserman, 1998)."[1]
• The British Journal of Psychiatry: "In addition, meta-analytic data indicate that the association between childhood sexual abuse and psychopathological symptoms tends to be larger for more severe forms of abuse."[2]
• Psychiatry Research: "For example, 17% of college students report childhood sexual abuse in the form of sexual intercourse (Rind et al., 1998)."[3]
• Sexual and Relationship Therapy: "They found, in a meta-analysis of 59 studies of over 15,000 college students, that the relation between self-reported CSA and psychopathology was weak and even weaker when CSA was considered to be consensual, particularly for males. They also reported that 11% of women and 37% of men indicated that their short-term reaction to the CSA was positive. Rind and Tromovitch (1997) similarly reported that only a small proportion of individuals with CSA experiences are permanently harmed in their meta-analytic review of seven national samples of psychological correlates of CSA. They concluded that while psychological adjustment measures suggest that CSA is related to poorer adjustment in the general population, confounding variables prevent attributing causal effects of CSA. [goes on]"[4]
• American Journal of Public Health: "Very little is actually known about the long-term risks and benefits of abstinence intentions, virginity pledges, or early or late initiation in the context of consensual sexual experiences; however, numerous studies have documented long-term adverse outcomes of sexual abuse, including sexual risk behaviors. [Rind cited among others]"[5]
• Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy: "Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman (1998) found in a meta analysis of 59 studies comprising 15,000 college students that relations between a self-reported history of CSA and psychopathology was low, and it was lower in magnitude when the respondent deemed CSA to be consensual, but only in men. Some 11% of female and 37% of male respondents reported their short-term reaction to the abuse as being positive."[6]
• Psychological Medicine: "[Cites Rind several times, then...] Rind et al. (1998) examined the relationship between CSA and psychological adjustment outcomes (e.g. alcohol problems, interpersonal sensitivity) in samples recruited from college and university student populations. Effect sizes were computed for the association between CSA and psychological outcomes, and for the magnitude of the relationship between several moderating variables (e.g. gender, level of contact) and psychological outcomes. Significant interactions were found between gender and two moderating aspects of the CSA experience, namely level of contact (i.e. psychological outcomes were significantly stronger for males than females when CSA was unwanted) and timing of reaction (i.e. negative reactions to CSA were significantly greater for females than males across each category of reaction timing that was measured: immediate, current, and lasting)."[7]

So there. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 18:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Search engines disagree with much of what Petra has to say. Lambton ^T/_C 18:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The following sentence from the article includes misleading information:

The Mayo Clinic also reported in their peer-reviewed journal that 95% of child sexual abuse incidents are committed by the 88% of child molestation offenders who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia, citing data from a 2001 book published by Xlibris, a self-publishing company.

The misleading information is this part:

citing data from a 2001 book published by Xlibris, a self-publishing company.

It's misleading for several reasons:

• The Mayo Clinic cited two sources for the statistics, not one. The other cited source is the American Psychiatric Association.
• The Mayo Clinic reported the information in a peer-reviewed journal. It's original research to second-guess the peer-review process of a reliable source. To question the information they reported, we would need to report a second reliable source that is questioning it.
• The author of 2001 book and the study it reports, Gene G. Abel, M.D., is a noted expert on the topic:
  • full professor of Psychiatry, taught at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, currently affiliated with Emory University School of Medicine and Morehouse School of Medicine, President of the National Society for Behavioral Medicine, a Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association, a diplomat of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology, former research psychiatrist at the New York State Psychiatric Institute...
  • Six NIMH research grants: NIMH Grant MH20258, "Modification of Deviant Behavior," September, 1973 - August, 1974. Co-Principal Investigator with Judith V. Becker, Ph.D. / NIMH Grant MH32982, "Sexual Dysfunction in Rape Victims," September 25, 1979 - August 31, 1982 (extended to January 31, 1983). Co-Principal Investigator with Judith V. Becker, Ph.D. / NIMH Renewal Grant, "Modification of Deviant Behavior," September, 1974 - June, 1976. / NIMH Center for the Prevention and Control of Rape, Grant R01 MH 3805-01, "The Evaluation and Treatment of Sexual Aggressives," February 1, 1976 - January 31, 1979 (extended to August 30, 1979). Principal Investigator. / NIMH Grant MH33678-01, "The Evaluation of Child Molesters," May 1, 1980 - April 30, 1983 (extended to July 31, 1985). Principal Investigator. / NIMH Grant MH36347, "The Treatment of Child Molesters," August 1, 1981 - July 31, 1984 (extended to July 31, 1985). Principal Investigator.
  • Awards: MASTERS & JOHNSON AWARD presented by the Society for Sex Therapy and Research, March 17, 1991 in Baltimore, Maryland for recognition of sex research. / SIGNIFICANT ACHIEVEMENT AWARD, given by the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers, November 7, 1991, in recognition of dedication and leadership in the field of sex offender research, evaluation and treatment. / NATIONAL AWARD, given by the International Conference on the Treatment of Sex Offenders, May 1989, for perseverance in a new field of study and willingness to share new knowledge. / DISTINGUISHED LIFE FELLOW of the APA (American Psychiatric Association) January 1, 2004
  • Former editor of these journals: Behavior Therapy, Criminal Justice and Behavior, Journal of Behavior Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry, and Journal of Interpersonal Violence
  • Published over 100 papers in scientific journals

The misleading and off-topic distraction about Xlibris does not belong in the sentence reporting the statement of the peer-reviewed Mayo Clinic Proceedings journal and has been removed. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 06:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The text in the section on pedophilia was clumsy - it included repeated content and excess attributions that did not add anything to the understanding of the topic (for example, mentioning the APA and WHO in the topic sentence of the first paragraph was not useful to the reader).

I've done a copyedit of the section.

I'm mentioning it here to note of my intention for that edit. My purpose was to improve the readability, reduce confusion, and leave out unimportant details that did improve the communication of information. I think the meaning is intact and it reads much better now.

Also added a couple dictionary references and fixed the formatting of some references that were messed up and duplicated.

As far as I can tell, all the references are still in place (other than the three identical references to the DSM that I combined into one); if any got dropped it was not intentional. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 09:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've edited this sentence in the intro to add a general overview of the statistics from the Mayo Clinic, without including the details.

That was a follow-up to a prior version I had added earlier, where another editor moved the information out of the intro, with an edit summary indicating that the editor wanted more of a summary approach in the lead.

So, I'm OK with omitting that set of statistics from the lead - but the general content based on that reliable source is important for context in the lead. So rather than re-insert the details, I summarized it, included the footnote, and copyedited the full sentence to improve readability. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 09:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most CSAbusers are not pedophiles, and there is some debate as to who committs the majority of offences (since adolescent activity is more common - someone with that preference would be ephebophilic). Your one source is countered by various others that I will find later. Lambton ^T/_C 13:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The professional opinion of Lautmann in "Attraction to Children" - he suggests that 5% of "pedosexually active men" are "true pedophiles".

In "Personality Correlates of Pedophilia: Are They Reliable Indicators?", Okami says: "most data suggest that only a relatively small portion of the population of incarcerated sexual offenders against minors consists of persons for whom minors (particularly children) represent the exclusive or even primary object of sexual interest or source of arousal".

Groth and Birnbaum (1978) states that 40% of abusers in their sample were "fixated", i.e. preferential pedophiles. Lambton ^T/_C 13:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Groth and Birnbaum is a bit dated though. There work was valuable, but it only dealt with a small sample of male, incarcerated offenders. And it was little too simplistic. It's more complicated that just fixed vs. regressed. Also, the lead sentence does not need to be overly qualified with overt statements of the sources that are already refed. It reads awkwardly and comes across as intentionally subversive to the content.Legitimus (talk) 14:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that we are dealing with modern societies, I do not feel that date matters all that much (indeed, methodological differences may help provide different perspectives). What of these sources do you think that we could integrate? In my opinion, the current state of affairs is slighly misleading. Lambton ^T/_C 15:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let me put it this way: It's difficult to ascertain a given sex offender's true state of mind and motivation, and there are many variations. All we know is, they did it.

If these sources are added together, and controlled for differences in definition, are we left with an applicable range of estimates? Example (making numbers up): it is estimated that between 18% and 80% of child sexual abuse is perpetrated etc.

I realize that pedophilia definition is a debated issue on wikipedia. I'd rather avoid that.Legitimus (talk) 16:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The range would be between 1% and 95% (though if we looked long enough, I'm sure we could find a source for 100%). That doesn't seem particularly helpful. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 18:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jovin Lambton's edit was appropriate. "Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text." (WP:V)

The data cited in the Mayo Report was not peer-reviewed. The authors could not possibly have possibly have performed an equivelent review, because the self-published book that reports it is lacking in detail in methodology. Meanwhile, a vast quantity of peer-reviewed research published in reputable journals, some of which is cited by Okami and Howells in our article, contradicts the claim. These studies are not outdated. "Child Pornography Offenses Are a Valid Diagnostic Indicator of Pedophilia" (2006), in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, found that child molestation, unlike child pornography, was not a valid diagnostic indicator of paedophilia. Only a minority of the abusers studied showed preferential attraction to children.

The weight of evidence should be represented. Dozens and dozens of peer-reviewed studies would seem to outweigh one self-published, nonscientific book (or even a citation to that book!) --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 18:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't addressed the original talkpage discussion on this, above. It's the number of crimes, not the number of offenders. (Misleading to say "most child abusers are not pedophiles"--there may be fewer of them, but they have many more victims. And Okami's research is oudated--Finkelhor says volume offenders are more likely to be incarcerated.-PetraSchelm (talk) 19:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed it like ten times, actually. Paedophilic child molesters typically have more victims than nonpaedophilic child molesters, though I'm not aware of a source besides the Xlibris book that claims they victimize more children as a group. Finkelhor's paper doesn't say that; "volume offenders are more likely to be incarcerated" can't become "paedophiles molest more children" without violating WP:OR (and the laws of logic). Okami's research doesn't contradict Finkelhor's actual statement. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 19:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Finkelhor makes a direct distinction between incestuous offenders and high volume offenders. If you want the article to say "high volume offenders are more likely to be incarcerated than incestuous offenders," I don't see a problem with that. There is a problem with how outdated Okami's research is in comparison to Finkelhor's, and the article should also state that the incarceration rate of child sex offenders has tripled since Okami's research (how reliable is that research if the population has changed dramatically?)-PetraSchelm (talk) 19:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead. I don't think that belongs in the Paedophilia section, though.

As I've already pointed out, the research cited by Okami is in line with modern peer-reviewed studies, like Seto. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 19:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's outdated--and there's a contradiction by someone who did research with more statistical power (and on the current population); as well as the Mayo contradiction (which is expert synthesis). The conclusions you're drawing from "Child Pornography offenses..." are OR. "Child molestation is not a valid diagnostic indicator of pedophilia" does not contradict that 10x more sex offenses are committed by pedophiles.-PetraSchelm (talk) 19:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No one is saying that. It adds to the viewer-abuser discussion. Lambton ^T/_C 20:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The current revision sounds ok, I think.: "When an adult seeks or engages in sexual activity with a child, public sentiment usually considers these actions as a manifestation of pedophilia;[19] however, some child sexual abuse is perpetrated by individuals who do not meet the criteria for the formal definition of that term.[20]" Truth be told, if I were to take the role of the naive reader, it doesn't seem particularly important whether an offender is a diagnostically recognized pedophile. Or what proportion of them are.Legitimus (talk) 01:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hang on a minute, can you please given the definitions of pedophile used for these studies? I'm noting some inconsistencies. Also, if an offender is not a pedophile, what are they? Legitimus (talk) 10:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If "many studies" only considered populations that had already had some form of law enforcement contact over their adult-child activities, then it's not reasonable to derive the percentage of pedophiles who are child molesters from these figures, though it should be possible to derive the percentage of child molesters who are pedophiles. --SSBohio 15:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, a selection bias is inadvertently created that skews the sample toward molesters of lower intellectual and socioeconomic status, as well as underrepresenting pedophiles who "resist temptation" and don't offend. --SSBohio 15:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, since 5% of cases are reported or identified, then the data on the other 95% is absent. Are these cases ones where smart pedophiles use their skills to molest children with impunity or are these pedophiles who have the impulse to sexually abuse children but resist acting on it? The research doesn't (& can't) tell us.

My overall feeling is that these three quotes qualify the information this source provides. Because of that, use of facts & figures from this source should probably be qualified by the limitations it acknowledges. --SSBohio 15:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see two useful points to take away from this passage:

• The usual way a pedophile becomes known (and studied) by professionals only when he offends against a child; That impacts the applicability of statistics on the prevalence of molestation (behavior) among pedophiles.

• There's no disagreement or problem with noting where the samples come from; the problem is in the opinions/conclusions drawn regarding the implications. (For instance, I have seen the ppa websites make hay of this that doesn't make sense.) It should also be noted that only a minority of sex offenders are prosecuted because only a minority of victims report abuse--that's the other variable in whether or not they get caught.-PetraSchelm (talk) 19:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes; According to this article, it's 1 in 20 that report the abuse. The PPA websites (based on your description) make the "mistake" (in quotes because the error is self-serving) of equating a lack of complaint with a positive outcome. The 99% (my unscientific estimate) of child molesters who are never arrested/convicted/studied simply cannot be used as evidence of anything; They are a statistical cipher. --SSBohio 20:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, but there are studies on the victims who didn't report, and why they didn't report which gives us the picture we have of unreported crimes, who doesn't report, what they don't report and which offenders are not reported, that's why there's any speculation about how many are unreported; as well there are as studies on offenders who provided self-report data on offenses for which they were not caught. I don't think it's actually that important for this article, but perhaps for the pedophilia article.-PetraSchelm (talk) 20:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Most pedophiles do not find their fantasies of sex with children to be severely distressing, which makes it unlikely for them to do anything about their problem until it not only manifests in the form of child sexual abuse, but until they get caught. --SSBohio 19:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's talk of changing the DSM to remove that criteria. It's called "ego-syntonic" v. "ego-dystonic," and there is belief that the ego-syntonic ones are the real sociopaths, because at least the ego-dystonic ones have intact reality-testing and remorse.-PetraSchelm (talk) 19:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's a good point about the ego-syntonic subjects. I never cared for criterion B, as I felt it let specific persons slip through. The concept that the proclivity must cause distress or an action seems at odds with common practice. For instance, suicidal or homicidal ideation. Such persons may have no detectable distress, yet these circumstances are considered serious enough even to breach patient confidentiality. I'm a bit confused as to the proposal on the table though. What do we want to say? Legitimus (talk) 20:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Fundamentally, when it comes to paraphilias, the DSM standard is not to treat a person's paraphilia as a mental disorder unless it is a problem for them. A pedophile who acts on his desire may be internally accepting of what he does, similarly to an angel of death who doesn't imagine himself to be a murderer. The non-offending (or not-yet-offending) pedophile is a different matter.
• I have to imagine that many pedophiles are inhibited by their ego-dystonia over whom they desire, and others who have offended may be genuinely remorseful and ashamed. The pedophiles that worry me are the ones who are not merely at peace with their desires, but actually proud to be pedophiles, not because people shouldn't believe as they choose, but because it removes a safeguard, a social control on antisocial behavior.
• Can we report anything (remotely) like that in this article? Not unless there's a source that has satisfactorily demonstrated it to be true. Until then, it's just my opinion, and this isn't OpinionPedia. --SSBohio 20:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Presented to inform the discussion. --SSBohio 21:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for providing some of the interesting material from the source. If anyone is interested in more, the full text is available on line at the following link:

• A Profile of Pedophilia: Definition, Characteristics of Offenders, Recidivism, Treatment Outcomes, and Forensic Issues.

--Jack-A-Roe (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps there are good/experienced editors who look at this page, who might be interested in taking a look at two (very) different articles: Roman Catholic sex abuse cases and Scouting sex abuse cases. Some fresh contributions might be useful. Testbed (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact—the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.

~ Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structures_that_can_imply_a_point_of_view --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 17:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The real issue is that you have disrespected the outside input on this and the resulting compromise, and inserted your preferred version without discussion instead. (Since the compromise was a few sentences on Rind--which I don't even agree belongs here--there's no "tortured" section of back and forth; it should be about four sentences, two of them rebuttal.) I am speaking with the topic mentors about this, and it should go to DR, either on or off wiki depending on what they advise (since this has been a longstanding problem at this article).-PetraSchelm (talk) 18:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I recall, the resulting compromise of a "few sentences" was supported by two outside editors on the Fringe board (User:Moreschi and User:Dbachmann), and opposed by User:Eleland. That doesn't even resemble consensus. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 18:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus was that it was a coatrack (eleland's objections weren't even in the scope of the problem being discussed). What was helpful was the outside input from the regular editors at the fringe board. You have completely disrespected consensus, and reinserted your preferred version without any discussion whatsoever--I'd say that's pretty much bad faith. As I said, this should go to DR, and I have requested advice from topic mentors about whether it should be on-wiki or emailed to Arbcom.-PetraSchelm (talk) 18:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've protected the page for a week because of edit warring. The history was a mess, and is exactly how not to do things here. We discuss, not edit war. Anyway, let's try and get this sorted out. I'm aware of a discussion on the fringe theories noticeboard about this - could someone link it to me? I'd also like to here some suggested text for the introduction pasage so hopefully we can get a compromise. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the link: WP:FTN#Child Sexual Abuse.

This is the diff of the fringe theory coatrack section being discussed. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction...? I don't know about that, but here's my suggestion for what we were warring over:

Some controversial^[18][19] [added controversial, with cites from below] studies suggest that some people reporting experiences of childhood or adolescent sexual contact with adults had maintained [removed some] at least partially positive feelings about those experiences. ^[20][21][2] [Removed detailed discussion of Okami; cites moved to "controversial"] [Removed discussion of "adult-child sex"; removed congressional condemnation] In 1998, Bruce Rind and two colleagues published a meta-analysis of 15 studies on child sexual abuse in Psychological Bulletin. [added preceding] He found that sexually abused boys reacted positively to their experience in 37% of the cases, while girls reacted positively in 11% of the cases.^[7] [Wording changes] The study received both criticism^[8][22] and praise;^[23] see Rind et al. controversy.[Summarized Rind controversy]

[Deleted women-boy sentence, moved citation up] There is [removed contrasting] evidence that some children who initially report positive feelings will sometimes go on to reassess their abuse in a negative light. 38% of the 53 men studied by Urquiza (1987) said that they viewed their experience as positive at the time, but only 15% retained this attitude.^[24] [removed another discussion of Okami] Russell (1986) speculated that the perception of a sexually abusive event as 'positive' could stem from a mechanism for coping with traumatic experiences.^[25]

--AnotherSolipsist (talk) 19:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Falsely implies that there is a big controversy (which is what coatracks do); fails to point out that Rind only reported self-reported short term effects of adoloescents; fails to mention that Rind's study was a cultural controversy, not a scientific controversy, and fails to mention that it's totally stale as a cultural controversy. (which is why it shouldn't be here at all, as there is an entire article on Rind). Also excludes criticism of Rind--i.e., Dallam's quote that the study was an attempt to misuse science to promote an agenda.-PetraSchelm (talk) 19:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like you've misinterpreted Dallam's misinterpretations of Rind. o_O Consider reading the study itself. If you did, you'd know that the focus of Rind et al. (1998) was on the long-term effects of CSA; that was, in fact, one point of criticism for Ondersma. As for the reactions we describe, both immediant and current reactions to the abuse were analyzed, and the portion that were positive was not significantly different between them.

You'd also know that Rind et al. studied child sexual abuse victims of all ages, not just adolescents -- though including adolescents, as is standard for these kind of studies. Shall we point out that pubescents were included in most of the studies we cite, for consistency?

I agree that most of the controversy over Rind wasn't scientific, including the quote from Dallam excluded from my preferred version. Cultural controversy isn't relevant to the scientific study of the effects of child sexual abuse. I also agree that the controversy is stale; Rind et al. is accepted by mainstream science, and now almost always cited without caveat (see #Notability of Rind et al. (1998). --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 19:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your'e confusing the two aspects of the Rind study--one was scientific (and wasnot controversial--Rind confirms there is harm in child sexual abuse) and the second was cultural: he thinks a small percentage of adolescent male/adult male sexual experiences should be called "adult child sex," because the harm is not "pervasive or long lasting"--some adolescents, according to Rind, who presented at a pro-pedophile conference, self-report no negative effects in the short term. That's an opinion, not a scientific observation, and it was a cultural controversy that is now stale.

Also, Urquiza is an unpublished doctoral dissertation from 1987. (In addition to coatracking, there is serious scrounging up of sources and source-mining to get the coatrack in the first place...)-PetraSchelm (talk) 20:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)^ Urquiza, A.J. (1987). The effects of childhood sexual abuse in an adult male population. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, University of Washington, Seattle.[reply]

Doctoral dissertations are as reliable as peer-reviewed studies, and I've seen Urquiza's cited several times in the literature. One of those citation's was in Finkelhor's commentary on Sandfort, which is, I suspect, the actual source here. It looks like Urquiza is there to balance the misguided assumption that since some positive reactions exist, CSA might be okay (which isn't actually stated in our article). I'm not sure why you would have a problem with that.

As to Rind, I'm not confusing the descriptive aspects and prescriptive aspects of his study, I'm ignoring the latter. That's because my revised version doesn't mention his recommendation of the "adult-child sex" terminology. It's a red herring. We're citing Rind for his meta-analysis of emotional responses to CSA, which is a descriptive ("scientific") aspect.

I've revised my suggestion slightly, by the by. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 00:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

again, this is not about "coatrack" (an article going completely off topic), but about WP:DUE: the presentation of fringe views as having more credibility or support than they do in fact have. I agree with PetraSchelm that we mappear to be looking at (on or off wiki) pro-pedophile activism, and I do suggest that the material should be moved to that article, with a brief summary here. This is also about the age of consent. Let's say that in "civilized" countries, this varies between 14 and 18 years. It is a huge difference if the victim is aged 2, 10, 14 or 17. The article seems to ignore this almost completely. What is "child abuse" in California may be perfectly legal consensual sex in Spain (if the 'victim' is aged 14 to 16). dab (𒁳) 20:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But it isn't a fringe view among social scientists that children sometimes react, and later reflect upon their abusive experience positively. That's been the result of virtually every study on the matter. Rind's meta-analysis, too, is not fringe. Most of its critics are ultraconservative reactionaries with no experience in science, and the few critics who are scientists tend to come from the cult of "repressed memory." An entire issue of American Psychologist was dedicated to defending Rind's scientific validity and condemning the hysteria that spurred the congressional resolution. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 00:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's kind of a subcategory listed under WP:COATRACK, that addresses WP:UNDUE regarding criticism sections in articles, not whole coatrack articles themselves: "An article might have a disproportionately large "criticism" section, giving the impression that the nominal subject is hotly contested by many people, when in fact the criticism is merely selected opinions and the section creates an artificial controversy. This, too, gives the reader a false impression about reality even though the details may be true."-PetraSchelm (talk) 20:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

dab, I concur with your comments and that the fringe views must not have undue weight in this article and and should be moved to the pro-pedophile activism article, with a short summary here. To address your concerns about age of consent, I agree with you it needs to be clarified. There's a separate article for the legal issues at Laws regarding child sexual abuse. This article is about abuse of children, not teenagers - in other words, children as defined medically, not minors, defined legally. That needs to be made more clear. Aside from that concern though, the excessive pro-pedophile controversy info should certainly be moved elsewhere with only a short summary here. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 21:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can this information reside on pro-pedophile activism? Flaws aside, I don't see why we need it in both places, especially so much of it. Note this precedent: Murder is a crime, but killing someone may not always be murder, such as self-defense. Note that self-defense receives a mere 3 sentences, but has an in-text link to the much broader concept for the reader should they take interest. Legitimus (talk) 01:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. The fact that some children react to CSA positively doesn't say anything good about paedophiles, and it's directly pertinent to CSA: Positively experienced child sexual abuse is still child sexual abuse (unlike how self-defense isn't murder). --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 17:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with much of this talk, especially the idea that this article covers prepubescent children only (the focus of sources is contrary), and the idea that any expansion of unsupportive points of view would be unbalancing at this stage (unsupported by consensus in all applicable fields. This is just a signpost, and I shall expand later. 82.25.179.169 (talk) 13:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That didn't really address the subject about weight, with particular attention to readership the impression of a naive reader. But go ahead and explain when you can. But let the record show, I am already suspicious.Legitimus (talk) 13:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't let it troll you--it's an IP with 5 edits. One to the article about the Dutch pedophile party that only has three members, one to harass me, two to the child porn article that were reverted, and this one.-PetraSchelm (talk) 13:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

n 1998, Bruce Rind, PhD argued in his study known as Rind et al. that a minority of cases between adolescent males and adults should be called "adult child sex." This study was condemned by the United States Congress, an event which marked the first time in U.S. history that Congress officially condemned a study published in a major scientific journal.^[26] Rind's study was a meta-analysis of 15 studies using college students that found that boys reacted positively in 37% of the cases, while girls reacted positively in 11% of the cases, only in the short term.^[7] The methodology and conclusions drawn by this study has been criticized by many researchers^[8], including Dallam et al., who stated "After a careful examination of the evidence, it is concluded that Rind et al. can best be described as an advocacy article that inappropriately uses science in an attempt to legitimize its findings." (2002).^[27] The study has also received some support for its scientific validity, though not necessarily its conclusions.^[28]

I do not approve. For one, several parts are inaccurate. Rind et al. (1998) argued that any "willing encounter with positive reactions" should be termed adult-child sex, not just those that occur between adolescent boys and adults. And as I have already said, the positive feelings were not just short-term, as claimed in your passage. 42% of males and 16% of females reported overall positive feelings for their abuse, even as adults. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 01:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Er, the way you're interpreting that is pretty weird--Rind et al found less severe harm when force wasn;t used--that doesn't make it a "willing encounter" if consent wasn't possible. Further, less severe abuse=less severe harm was already established. Also, the way Rind et al defined sexual abuse was pretty bogus: "Ondersma et al. also note that many of the studies reviewed by Rind et al. include in the definition of CSA both contact and non-contact sex. In one of the studies fully 83% of males' "CSA" experiences involved being propositioned by an adult, without any actual contact! Is it any wonder that Rind et al. found a smaller degree of profound and persistent long-term harm among the victims of CSA (so broadly defined) than what would have been predicted by other researchers?" Then there's the problem with "self-reporting" no harm/self reporting no harm short term/till young adulthood: "Ondersma et al. begin by objecting to limiting the definition of harm to the existence of negative effects lasting to young adulthood. According to that criterion, other clearly negative childhood experiences - for example, being beaten by an adult or having leukemia -- might not qualify as harmful either. Moreover, harm does not require that the victim perceive that experience negatively... the possibility that a child might learn from an abuser that such experiences are normal and positive is one of the most concerning possible outcomes of CSA." Last but not least, let's not forget that Rind et al completely excluded drug abuse (self-medication, a primary CSA symptom) from their study as negative sequelae. Like Legitimus, I don't think this belongs here at all--there's already an article on Rind, and it's described in the pro-pedophile activism article. There are thousands of studies we are not including here, and this one just doesn't merit any special attention, per undue weight. I think it's just pov-pushing to keep insisting on it, when it has so much coverage elsewhere, and when it did absolutely nothing to reconfigure the weight of scientific opinion--it was only notable as a cultural controversy, which is now quite stale.-PetraSchelm (talk) 02:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Some people use quotation marks to indicate the beginning and end of a quote. I'm one of those people. "Willing encounter" is Rind's term, not mine.
• "Less severe abuse=less severe harm," in general, was not a finding of Rind et al. (1998). Rind et al. (1998) found that "level of consent" (note quotation marks) was related to adjustment, but "level of contact" was not. This indicates that the harm of noncontact abuse is equivalent to that of contact abuse, which partially answers your next criticism...
• Rind et al. (1998) didn't define "child sexual abuse," but it respected the definitions of the studies it was analyzing . Some (73%) included non-contact abuse in their definition. Regardless of whether that's "bogus," it's very common: Even our article notes that child sexual abuse "includes invitations or requests," even those other three meta-analyses you've been trumpeting include abused children who never experienced actual contact. Why aren't you directing this criticism at any of the other references we cite?
  That said, Rind et al. (2001) performed a meta-analysis on the 11 contact-only studies in Rind et al. (1998). The effect size (r=.10) was not statistically different from Rind et al. (1998)'s overall effect size for contact and non-contact together (r=.09).
• I'm glad you've reversed your temporality criticism, but it's still misguided. Ondersma's notion is unfalsiable, and as such has no place in a scientific study like Rind et al. (1998). Ondersma is suffering from confirmation bias: any possible outcome of CSA is assumed to be harmful.
• Rind et al. (1998) isn't just another study. It's a unique and valuable meta-analysis, vastly more notable than most others. You've mentioned three other meta-analyses that were released around the same time as Rind et al. (1998). None are even half as oft-cited as Rind: Paolucci, Neumann, and Jumper. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 17:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Support this as being better than the version proposed by AS. perhaps we could also merge the rind article here and in conjunction with Petra's version. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, what if we alter the order of the sentences if this proposal, to present things more gradually, and fuse in some points raised:

In 1998, Bruce Rind, PhD argued in his study known as Rind et al. that a minority of cases between adolescent males and adults in which which there was no perceived force should be called "adult child sex." Rind's study was a meta-analysis of 15 studies using college students that found that boys reacted positively in 37% of the cases, while girls reacted positively in 11% of the cases, measured in the short term.^[7] The methodology and conclusions drawn by this study has been criticized by many researchers^[8], including Dallam et al., who stated "After a careful examination of the evidence, it is concluded that Rind et al. can best be described as an advocacy article that inappropriately uses science in an attempt to legitimize its findings." (2002).^[29] This study was condemned by the United States Congress, an event which marked the first time in U.S. history that Congress officially condemned a study published in a major scientific journal.^[30] The study has also received some support for its scientific validity, though not necessarily its conclusions.^[31]

How this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legitimus (talk • contribs)

Still not great. In order of importance, my complaints are: the "adolescent males" inaccuracy remains; "adult-child sex" should not be mentioned, as it's a minority view that wasn't the focus of Rind's paper and isn't explained properly in one sentence; "measured in the short-term" is misleading, as (virtually) the same results were obtained in the long-term; "many researchers" is a weasel term that overrepresents the minority who are critical of Rind; an introduction on 'positive' findings in other studies is missing; and the congressional resolution is a tangential detail that belongs at Rind et al. controversy -- it doesn't inform the reader about the subject of this article, child sexual abuse. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 18:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]