Shouldn't Free Derry be added to the list of "See also" at the bottom of the template on this article? ie Confederate Ireland | Republic of Connaught | Éire | Northern Ireland | Republic of Munster

Free Derry was a de facto independent state like the Republic of Connacht, etc. It lasted around a year, so maybe it should be added? Republoic of Wexford as well?

Any opinions? Derry Boi 16:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would have as much validity as RoC and RoM. --sony-youth^talk 22:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some questions regarding the recent changes to Northern Ireland in this template:

• Did Northern Ireland cease to be a sate in 1972?
  • If so, could it be considered a state from 1972 to present?
  • Or, was it subsumed once into the UK state?
• Should the recent changes to Northern Ireland be considered as the creation of a new state?
  • If so, is 1998 the stating point for this state?

--sony-youth^talk 20:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Devolved Northern Ireland House of Commons and Senate setup by the partition of Ireland in 1920/21 was disolved by the British government and direct rule return to Westminster, so it was a change in the constitutional status in that regard.--padraig3uk 20:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Ireland has had continuous recognition since the Government of Ireland Act. AFAIK it was never given a legal title such as 'state', but that would also mean that the legal term for what type of entity it is exactly has not been changed - only the method of governance has altered.

I don't see why the Northern Ireland link should be split into 2, especially since one points to NI and the other to the NI House of Commons. This seems inconsistent with the others, particularly Southern Ireland which links to Southern Ireland rather than Parliament of Southern Ireland or similar. beano 20:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I edited the first link to Parliament of Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 21:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That still doesn't alter the fact that a) The Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland links are inconsistent and b) Northern Ireland was created in 1921 and runs to the present day. A new state was not created, the method of governance of an existing one was changed. beano 15:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In 1921 the British Government Setup both the Southern Ireland House of Commons and the Northern Ireland House of Commons, the southern one only met twice, the first time only 4 or 5 members attended and the second time was a formality to endorse the Anglo-Irish Treaty, but only after this was passed in Dáil Éireann first. The Northern Ireland HOC existed until 1972 when it was disolved, and direact rule was restored to Westminster.--padraig3uk 15:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If that is the case then no new state was set-up in NI after 1972 so the order should read: "Southern Ireland | Northern Ireland | Irish Free State." There is no need for dates, they don't appear for any of the others.

Now point 2: was a new state set up in 1998 or was this the reinstatement of a suspended state?

When power was transfered back to the Assembly recently it was reported at the time that the UK would temporaraly lose control of NI until the Assembly was restablished under the executive. If that was the case then it is resonable to assume that when the Stormont Government was disolved in 1972, that power went from the devolved NIHOC to Westminster. In much the same way as the power transfered from the Irish Free State to the Republic of Ireland which we treat as two seperate entities.--padraig3uk 20:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK - in that case I suggest that it's misleading to present there having been two states called NI between 1921 and now - if there was only one, then there was only one. There is also no need for dates after it. When the assembly meets and if it presents itself as a wholly different state to that disolved in 1972 (as is the case with the Free State and the 1937 constitution, but not the Republic of Ireland) then we can add that also. The constitutional position of Northern Ireland at various times is well explained in that article. What say you? --sony-youth^talk 22:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sony-youth, my main objection is to the use of the Ulster banner for Northern Ireland after 1972, when the NIHOC ceased to exist, either we remove all the flags from the template, or we use the outline image of NI instead of the flag.--padraig3uk 22:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The template is for states, not places. If Northern Ireland (the state) had a flag then it is irrevelent if Northern Ireland (the place) has or has not have a flag today. Its entry here is for that state as is clear from the title of the template. --sony-youth^talk 23:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But Northern Ireland the State never had a flag, the flag was of the Government that was disbanded and disolved in 1972/3 therefore since the flag only applies upto that date, it can't be used afterwards to present either government or state.--padraig3uk 00:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, let's break down what you are saying: 1. there was a Irish state known as Northern Ireland; 2. it is a historical state; 3. it ceased to be in 1973; 4. it's flag was the Ulster Banner (the difference between it being the flag of the state or the government of that state is a trivial technicality).

Cool. So we can use that flag to represent that state on this template? --sony-youth^talk 00:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Only from 1921-72, after 1972 no flag should be used, so we then have two links for Northern Ireland one with the flag 1921-72, one without the flag, or one link and no flag for the whole period of 1921-present.--padraig3uk 00:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So what state succeeded Northern Ireland in 1972? I thought it was ruled directly from the UK i.e. no state? --sony-youth^talk 00:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it was under direct rule, it didn't have a flag therefore the ulster banner shouldn't be used.--padraig3uk 00:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And neither should a non-state be listed here. So I'm taking it out. --sony-youth^talk 00:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then I am removing the flag as this flag dosent represent the state.--padraig3uk 00:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A few facts:

• Northern Ireland has existed for 86yrs
• from 1921-53 it had no flag, thats 32yrs
• from 1953-72 the Government used the UB 19yrs
• from 1972-present it has no flag thats 35yrs.

So for 68yrs out of 86yrs it never had a flag in use.--padraig3uk 01:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm stunned at how pathetic this has become. I knew this was going to boil down to some petty attempt to remove the flag - it's the only possible reason for having the two separate entries for Northern Ireland. If Northern Ireland was ever a 'state' it was from 21-72, thereafter it was a region of the UK, so unless you're going to add years for all the other states, NI should stay with the NI flag. beano 03:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removing POV is not pathetic, this flag dosent represent Northern Ireland and shouldn't be used unless it is refering to the period 1921-72. WP is suppose to presents facts.--padraig3uk 03:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pardraig, you have once again removed the official flag of Northern Ireland at the time that that state was disolved. This was the flag that the former state of Northern Ireland choose to use to represent itself. If you do not like this flag in real-life, that is your prerogative, but your personal dislike of it has no place here. I'll remind you that this is a template, changes made here affect many different pages. Please try to act responsibly, with consensus, and true to the facts. --sony-youth^talk 07:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But that flag dosent represent Northern Ireland from 1972 onwards, so you should have two entries for NI, are you saying this flag now represents the Northern Ireland Assembly today when the flag can't even be flown from government buildings.--padraig3uk 10:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, Padraig, what I am saying is that this template is for states. If NI was not a state post-72 then an entry for NI post 1972 does not belong here. If you are unhappy about the link pointing to the current Northern Ireland article then why don't you go about making a new article specifically about the state of NI during the years 1921-72, along the same lines as the other historic states in the template. The template could run something link:

... Irish Republic | Southern Ireland | Northern Ireland | Irish Free State ...

Does this sound like a fair comprimise? Personally, I think it would also be more informative, but I would also like to hear some Unionist perspective on it before going ahead. --sony-youth^talk 11:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a good solution, and be more factual then the current setup.--padraig3uk 11:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Copy of post requesting comment made to NI talk page:

Coming out of the discussion on talk page for the "Irish state in order of creation" template, a proposal has been made to create an article specifically about Northern Ireland as a state during the period 1921-72. This could be located at [[Northern Ireland (state, 1921-72)] or something along the same lines. I am in favour, as it another editor, but I would especially like to hear some Unionist perspective on this.

The amended template would run something like as follows:

... Irish Republic | Southern Ireland | Northern Ireland | Irish Free State ...

Specifically, I would like to know, if it would be suitable to add a new entry for Northern Ireland for post-1998, which presumably would link here (with no flag, I suppose, although I would be in favour of using the assembly logo in this specific case.) The reasoning for this is because that template is specifically for "states", which implies someform of self-governance.

--sony-youth^talk 11:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Tricolour the best emblem to represent Derry? I tried , but reduced to , it looks like Cra not very good. There are so many tricolours in this template, they seem to lose their distinctiveness!

Please sign your comments. I agree though, I realise Free Derry was republican in outlook/ethos or whatever, but I don't think the tricolour is appropriate. It wasn't annexed by the Republic, it was supposedly autonomous. 88.110.226.244 01:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]