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Hi Mathmo, we seem to be overlapping a bit in our edits about Gaines stating she was struck twice versus content stating she "was assaulted", e.g. [1], but with reference to WP:RSP, sources such as the Reason commentary, The Daily Telegraph and WP:NEWSWEEK are not the best possible sources available, so it seems best, per WP:NPOV, including WP:WIKIVOICE, to use the best-sourced content we currently have available, which seems to be based on Gaines' statements at this time. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 01:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources says The Daily Telegraph is listed as a good source, which is why I added it. I used Newsweek, but see it's listed as disputed, so I'm not trying add it back when removed. The Telegraph (aka The Daily Telegraph) made an explicit statement of fact about the assault, and about being forced to be barricaded in a room. The current wording implies that it was just the police putting her in the room (not the protesters). But, if you read the body of the article Anti-Lia Thomas activist whisked away by police amid protest at San Francisco State by SFGate, you'll see it says "In one video, protesters can be seen discussing conditions under which they’d let Gaines leave.". So, the SF Gate article, despite being critical of Gaines politically, actually confirms that she was forced to be in the room. It goes further than the Telegraph, by making clearer that it was the protesters keeping her there. This is a widely witnessed, filmed, and covered event. We shouldn't just be implying that it was just Gaines making a claim, as the current wording does. We should state the facts, as reported by reliable sources. It's also worth noting, that while not all sources confirm all the facts as facts, I don't see any reliable source refuting the claim of facts of The Telegraph. So, I think the version that said "According to The Telegraph, Gaines was physically assaulted and forced to barricade herself inside a room." was absolutely correct. --Rob (talk) 05:06, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per the WP:WIKIVOICE section of WP:NPOV policy, we need to avoid "avoid stating opinions as facts", so attributing a factual statement to a source, i.e. The Telegraph (as if it is an opinion) does not appear appropriate according to this policy.

Also, The Telegraph is identified as potentially biased in its WP:RSP entry (and seems to potentially have some bias based on some of the article itself, including but not limited to its broad assertion that a physical assault occured when other news outlets have been more circumspect based on available evidence and police statements), so its use as opinion for a vague factual statement does not seem appropriate per the reliable sources section guideline that discusses NPOV policy, especially because there are more neutral reliable sources available to support neutral content now, which is that Gaines has made statements about her experience. This is also recent news, and we can wait for further credible information to develop - investigations are pending, and in the meantime, we need to be careful to avoid our own original research or synthesis from a video.

I also do not see how SFGATE is "critical of Gaines politically" in its news report of what happened - the report describes Gaines as "an activist against trans women in women’s sports" and states she has "gone on a public crusade against Thomas" - as this article develops with sources already included, those descriptions probably will become more clear, but the descriptions do not seem particularly politically critical.

WP:WIKIVOICE also encourages us to "Prefer nonjudgmental language", so using language that is closer to what Gaines and reliable sources said happened, instead of "physically assaulted" and "forced to barricade herself" seems more encyclopedic. There is a chain of events that has been documented by news outlets; Gaines spoke, and then protesters entered; Gaines moved to a classroom with protection from police; afterwards, Gaines described her experience as including being physically struck twice. I think the words to watch section in NPOV policy is also helpful, because it says to avoid "loaded language", which is what I attempted to do when developing content from sources. Beccaynr (talk) 05:48, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was uncessary to say "According to The Telegraph", since it was a fact. So, we could just state it (the physical assault, and barricading) as facts without inline attribution. But, giving an inline attribution isn't harmful. Stating reliably sourced fact isn't judgmental. The Telegraph came to its conclusion based on available data of a very public incident. NPOV means we follow reliable sources, it doesn't mean we treat all imagined points of view equally. Now, if there were a reliable source that contradicted The Telegraph, I would say than we would have to be neutral and reflect that there was dispute within reliable sources. But, there is no dispute. The fact that not every source says X doesn't mean X is disputed. Now, if we decide there isn't sufficient reliable sources to say what happened in this instance, then let's just remove the whole incident. All of your suggested wording seems to be an attempt to say nothing. I'm fine, do that, for now. But, please don't be use weaselly wording that leaves things up the reader to interpret however they wish, with a subtle suggestion that nothing happened. Note, my suggestion (leaving incident out) isn't rhetorical, this is a new incident, there's ongoing reporting, and I'm fine with waiting to cover it (we're not news). But, whatever we do, we must not engage in fake neutrality that suggests anything is possible. --Rob (talk) 13:55, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I know many eyes are on this page at the moment, so we should try our best to be precise and stick as closely to reliable sources. Thanks to @Maddy from Celeste for correcting the problematic language regarding this. I've looked at the RS and it seems in Wikivoice we should be saying Transgender Atheletes instead. I am not sure of Riley's views, but it could presumably be true that she may additionally oppose inclusion of Trans Men in Women's sports.

Most sources quote her directly when explaining her views, however, the following sources do explicitly mention Transgender Athletes, and not Transgender Women. [2], [3]. With regards to the first source note that the title indicates the event was in regards to Transgender Women in Women's sports, however specifically regarding Riley it says Transgender Athletes.

It may be the case that there are other sources which report differently, in which case we should add them. Theheezy (talk) 06:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a challenging article with a limited number of reliable sources to work with; note the WP:RSP entry for WP:NEWSWEEK. We should also probably consider MOS:GENDERID, and how Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX. The recent event in the news was titled "Saving Women's Sports with Riley Gaines" [4], and Gaines has previously referred to trans women as e.g. "biological male" [5] - she appears to be opposed to people she believes are 'biologically male' [6], not trans men, in Women's sports. In my review of sources, I have not yet seen anything to suggest her campaigning is more than against the inclusion of trans women in the women's division of sports. Beccaynr (talk) 09:25, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the one saving grace here is that the article is small and hence it is possible to avoid it spiralling out of control. I think Beccaynr is right on both points. We need to keep obfuscatory transphobic jargon out of the article as far as possible. If we absolutely have to use it in a quotation then that should be contextualised so that our readers can know what it means. Any attempt to add it in Wikipedia's voice should be reverted on sight and warnings issued as appropriate. As regards trans men, I think the part of the anti-trans movement that focuses on women's sport as a wedge issue has either completely forgotten or, more likely, is pretending to have forgotten that trans men and non-binary people even exist. As soon as the conversation is expanded to include them their whole line falls apart. DanielRigal (talk) 10:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]