The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 08:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Paul the Apostle → Saint PaulSaint Paul – Like Saint Peter and Saint Anne, the WP:COMMONNAME of this individual appears to be the individual's name preceded by "Saint" by an order of magnitude. This is the case among scholarly works (550K results for "Saint Paul" vs 25K results for "Paul the Apostle") as well as in popular press works (see NGRAMS). As such, the title should be moved in line with the article subject's WP:COMMONNAME. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. This is certainly the most common name for him, although "the Apostle Paul" is probably not too far behind—I would guess "Paul the Apostle" is somewhat further back, with "Paul of Tarsus", a former name of this article, considerably less common than all of the above. I don't believe that our "sainthood" guideline is relevant here: some people don't like him, don't think he ought to be celebrated, and maybe they're right—but he is celebrated, has been since the beginning, and nearly every denomination considers him a saint; non-Christians don't usually care whether Christians consider someone a saint, or complain about having to call somebody one. I think that guideline is mainly useful when someone's sainthood is widely disputed, or another name for the person is similarly common—neither of which is the case here. The best objection to this move is probably the existence of Saint Paul, Minnesota; but that article is distinguished through natural disambiguation, and in practical terms most people outside of the upper midwest will assume that "Saint Paul" refers to the saint, rather than the city named after him, unless the context suggests otherwise. P Aculeius (talk) 13:50, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I'd prefer all the apostles be at "xyz the Apostle" as it clearly shows what the topic is, instead of the large number of "Saint XYZ" topics, including famous landmarks, places, and other saints -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 23:55, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to think Paul was one of the Twelve Apostles - he wasn't. That is one of the problems with the current name. Johnbod (talk) 01:53, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't. He had an "epiphany on the road" and converted after the resurrection, as frequently stated. He's one of those extra apostles from early Christianity, and not one of the 13 disciples who travelled with Yeshua the Nazarene. -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 19:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. I'd be inclined to support the request per WP:COMMONNAME but consistency is also relevant and I see that we have John the Apostle, Thomas the Apostle, Andrew the Apostle, Philip the Apostle, Jude the Apostle, Matthias the Apostle, Bartholomew the Apostle, Matthew the Apostle. True enough, we also have James the Great, James the Less, Simon the Zealot and Saint Peter, plus Barnabas... Probably "Saint Paul" would be precise enough to be unambiguous, but there are other saints who are named Paul, so perhaps "Paul the Apostle" is preferable. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:01, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The current name wrongly suggests that Paul is one of the Twelve Apostles - in fact he never even met Jesus. Very different to those you name. There are indeed many other saints called Paul, but they are all without exception remarkably obscure. Johnbod (talk) 01:51, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that argument holds: Paul claimed to be an apostle because he had seen Jesus (1 Corinthians 9:1); but more to the point, all branches of the Christian church recognise his claim to be an apostle. Adpete (talk) 03:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:35, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: For the reasons Gitz6666 gave. Paul the Apostle seems in-line with WP:Consist as noted by Gitz. Vyselink (talk) 02:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - certainly in Protestant scholarship "Paul the Apostle" or some variant ("The apostle Paul", or simply "Paul") is more common. The 550k Google scholar hits claimed should be treated with caution, because a large number of them are for Saint Paul, Minnesota. I admit that Catholic and Orthodox scholarship may well prefer "Saint Paul", so on Christian scholarly usage alone it is probably balanced; but "Paul the Apostle" has the advantage of being more neutral. (Disclaimer: I am Protestant myself). Adpete (talk) 03:56, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Mild oppose - James Dunn uses "Paul the Apostle; that says enough for me. Compromise: "Saint Paul the Apostle." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:46, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - As is the case with the rest of the twelve, whether or not the one proper title for Paul is "Saint", "Apostle", or "Disciple" is disputed, with only those who venerate Paul using the title "Saint" and reserving it for formal, denominational use, which not all Christians do. Besides, as has been mentioned before, you don't want people mixing him up with the city of St. Paul, Minnesota, particularly as that's a state capital and separation of church and state is an issue, and I have a feeling that's not the only city that's so named, even in English. Tyrekecorrea (talk) 17:40, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: for consistency with other apostles and per MOS:SAINT. The foundational principles of the WP:COMMONNAME case here also has some holes. If you just flip 'Paul the apostle' around into 'apostle Paul', it comes up on top in Ngrams, while scholarly hits for 'apostle paul' are also more numerous than estimated above (86k results). As also noted above, there are also A LOT of false positives in the 'saint paul' search results, including potentially references to the likes of 'Saint Paul, Minnesota', the academic author Ulrich Saint-Paul, another author called 'Gilles Saint-Paul', and I'm sure the list goes on. There are no obvious parallel false positives for 'apostle paul'. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]