Talk:Ahmadiyya

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These questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Ahmadiyya.

Why does this page call the Ahmadiyya community Muslims?

Wikipedia adheres to a neutral point of view. That means that we rely on the information available in reliable, independent, secondary sources, which identify Ahmadiyya as a branch of Islam. The Ahmadiyya community's beliefs, like Islam, are based on the Six articles of Islamic Faith and the Five Pillars of Islam. Like all Muslims, Ahmadis accept the Quran as their holy text, face the Kaaba during prayer, follow the sunnah, and accept the authority of the ahadith.

Two arguments against the identification of Ahmadiyya as a branch of Islam are brought up repeatedly. One is that, according to some Muslims, Ahmadiyya has critical differences that put it outside of Islam. This is not relevant here; we stick with what reliable, secondary sources say just as we do when discussing the Nation of Islam, Messianic Jews, Won Buddhism, or any other controversial religion, and we avoid censorship. The second is that the government of Pakistan has declared that Ahmadis are not Muslims. That is not relevant here. The government of Pakistan does not influence Wikipedia policy. Both of these concerns are discussed in the article.

Why was my request or comment removed?

Because of the frequency of meritless and disruptive requests, any further requests to censor the page by removing the terms Muslim or Islam, unless the request complies with all relevant Wikipedia guidelines, including WP:Reliable sources, will be deleted without discussion. Any further requests to insert words such as Kafir or Qadiyani, or to rename the article to Qadianism, will also be deleted without discussion.


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Requested move 27 January 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. DrKay (talk) 09:15, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ahmadiyya → Ahmadiyya IslamAhmadiyya Islam – According to the same reliable sources cited in the article, Ahmadi Muslims have been persecuted by Sunnis since 1947 in Pakistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world, but the same sources also refer to the Ahmadiyya branch of Islam as the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam (both official names for the religion). Moreover, due to the same religious persecution against them, some people (both readers and editors) discuss about whether Ahmadi Muslims are Muslims or not; they are, obviously, because Ahmadiyya Islam is a denomination of Islam according to academics of Islamic studies and religion scholars,[1][2][3] therefore the title should be simply changed to Ahmadiyya Islam.

References

  1. ^ Friedmann, Yohanan (2011). "The Ahmadiyyah Movement". Oxford Bibliographies. Archived from the original on 14 December 2019. Retrieved 4 January 2019. The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam is a modern Muslim messianic movement. It was founded in 1889 in the Indian province of Punjab by Ghulam Ahmad (b. c. 1835–d. 1908). Having been accused of rejecting the Muslim dogma asserting the finality of Muhammad's prophethood, the movement aroused the fierce opposition of the Sunni mainstream. During the period of British rule in India, the controversy was merely a doctrinal dispute between private individuals or voluntary organizations, but after most Ahmadis moved in 1947 to the professedly Islamic state of Pakistan, the issue was transformed into a major constitutional problem. The Sunni Muslim mainstream demanded the formal exclusion of the Ahmadis from the Muslim fold. This objective was attained in 1974: against the fierce opposition of the Ahmadis, the Pakistani parliament adopted a constitutional amendment declaring them non-Muslims. In 1984, in the framework of Ziya al-Haqq's Islamization trend in Pakistan, presidential Ordinance XX of 1984 transformed the religious observance of the Ahmadis into a criminal offense, punishable by three years of imprisonment. The ordinance subsequently became an instrument of choice for the harassment and judicial persecution of the Ahmadi community. Following its promulgation, the headquarters of the Qadiyani branch of the Ahmadi movement moved from Rabwa, Pakistan, to London.
  2. ^ Gualtieri, Antonio R. (1989). Conscience and Coercion: Ahmadi Muslims and orthodoxy in Pakistan. Guernica Editions. p. 21–22. ISBN 978-0-920717-41-7.
  3. ^ "Ahmadiyya Muslim Community – An Overview". Alislam.org. Archived from the original on 16 March 2015. Retrieved 14 November 2012. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are Muslims who believe in the Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (peace be on him) (1835-1908) of Qadian. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad founded the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in 1889 as a revival movement within Islam, emphasizing its essential teachings of peace, love, justice, and sanctity of life. Today, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is the world's largest Islamic community under one Divinely appointed leader, His Holiness, Mirza Masroor Ahmad (may Allah be his Helper) (b. 1950). The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community spans over 200 nations with membership exceeding tens of millions.

GenoV84 (talk) 19:46, 27 January 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TiggerJay (talk) 16:35, 4 February 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPathtalk 13:49, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi GenoV84, I don't quite follow your reasoning here. Because readers and editors discuss whether or not Ahmadiyya is part of Islam it should be moved to Ahmadiyya Islam? Those discussions happen, whether or not the title is Ahmadiyya or Ahmadiyya Islam. Maybe I am not understanding you correctly, but that is not a reason to move. I'll opposse (for now, at least). soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 20:41, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Soetermans, I understand your point of view but the current title of this article is still incorrect; according to the cited sources, Ahmadiyya alone is not the official name of the religion.[1][2][3] GenoV84 (talk) 20:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Therealbey (talk) 21:38, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What is the WP:COMMONNAME? What a religion calls itself might be the preferred name, but not always the most common one. That being said, I did notice Sunni Islam and Shia Islam are titled as such, but denominations such as Isma'ilism and Zaydism use the suffix -ism and not Ismaili Islam or Zaydi Islam, while Ibadi Islam is called such, while the obscure Najdat are treated as a group. We should be consistent though... Curious! soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 21:03, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I thoroughly agree! WP:TITLECON should be applied to each one of these denominations of Islam on Wikipedia, and this article makes no exception. GenoV84 (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@GenoV84 and @Soetermans I think you guys didn't read WP:TITLECON it clearly mentions "Therefore, we generally use the titles that are the most common and recognizable names, even if they are inconsistent" also read WP:COMMONNAMES. Therealbey (talk) 21:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not assume whether or not I, or GenoV24 or anyone else for that matter, has not read a guideline when it is cited. It is uncivil and not helping the discussion. Take a good look at your talk page please, before you start casting stones. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 04:33, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree that it is inconsistent that the article on Ahmadiyya Islam is simply Ahmadiyya, while articles relating to other sects typically have Sect + Islam. HolyArtThou (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The three main denominations within Islam are Sunni Islam, Shia Islam and Ibadi Islam. There are various branches within these three denominations.
Furthermore, Ahmediyya is a religious movement, not a denomination. The wikipedia page title of Mormon religious movement is "Mormonism", not "Mormon christianity".
The proposed title is totally inconsistent with the page titles of other religious movements. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:38, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Shadowwarrior8: That's because Christian branches do not necessarily refer to themselves as "Branch + Christianity". The main branches of Christianity are Catholic Church, Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy. So while Mormonism beliefs may be up for debate by Christians, as may Ahmadi beliefs by mainstream Muslims, it has no relevance here. This is contrary to Islamic denominations (ie. Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Ibadi Islam), and needless to say, this discussion shouldn't spiral into theological debates. HolyArtThou (talk) 01:05, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think Ahmadiyya movement has evolved substantially as a missionary movement in how it presents itself. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad not only present himself as the mahdi to Muslims but also as the Messiah of Christians, and the avatar of Krishna for Hindus. This is written by him in his on newspapers. Limiting Ahmadiyya to just Islam is not a fair assessment of its historic position. [1] Maryveryold (talk) 17:59, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
— Maryveryold (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:39, 5 February 2025 (UTC) [reply]
  • Strong support per nom, HAT, and Chicdat. Ahmadiyya Islam actually appears to be the common name per Google Scholar (15,800 hits for "Ahmadiyya"; 29,100 hits for "Ahmadiyya Islam").
Kowal2701 (talk) 21:59, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Friedmann was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference Gualtieri was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference alislam.org was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Note: WikiProject Islam/Ahmadiyya task force, WikiProject Pakistan, WikiProject Theology, WikiProject Religion/New religious movements work group, Noticeboard for India-related topics, WikiProject Islam, WikiProject Indonesia, and WikiProject Religion have been notified of this discussion. TiggerJay (talk) 16:35, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge proposal

WITHDRAWN
Proposal withdrawn by the nominator at 09:36, 8 March 2025 (UTC), following two expressions of opposition and no support.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Qadiani is a religious slur that refers to Ahmadis. Moreover, the Qadiani article is too small and don't have many significant contents. The Qadiani article fits perfectly into this artcle. AimanAbir18plus (talk) 09:58, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Gualtieri, Antonio R. (1989). Conscience and Coercion: Ahmadis and Orthodoxy in Pakistan. Guernica Editions. p. 14. ISBN 978-0-920717-41-7.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ahmadiyya