Talk:2024 Venezuelan political crisis

Article name

I don't see sources refer to this as a crisis, although it may be part of a broader crisis. Perhaps 2024 Venezuelan election dispute or something similar might be better.TFD (talk) 02:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few of the many sources referring to it as a crisis are attached to the first sentence; there are many more. The article covers more than the vote tally dispute, and the crisis extends beyond the results of the election. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There don't seem to be many. Last time, if IIRC, the U.S. said that the election was illegitimate and therefore the presidency passed to Juan Guaido. But this time, Maduro was not recognized as the legitimate president to begin with. Isn't this just another chapter in claims of Maduro's illegitimacy?
Many Communist countries held regular elections that the U.S. refused to recognize as democratic. Could all these elections be described as crises? TFD (talk) 03:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's unclear why you find few sources; I come up with pages of them on a Google search. Along with the three listed in the first line, France24, WAPO, Al Jazeera, BBC, Foreign Policy PBS, another Reuters, another AP and pages more. Nor do I understand why the US stance under a different administration in a different situation are relevant to this situation; the Biden administration doesn't seem to be very engaged, or at times, even aware.
Many countries, NGOs and reliable sources who have condemned the repression beyond the issues with the vote tallies seem to think that what eight million and growing Venezuelans outside of Venezuela and the countries affected by receiving refugees, along with those arrested and imprisoned within Venezuela, constitute a crisis. As the NYT said, "The announcement plunged Venezuela into a political crisis that has claimed at least 22 lives in violent demonstrations, led to the jailing of more than 2,000 people and provoked global denunciation."
I'm unclear how limiting this article to an election "dispute" (which is territory covered in the election article) will better describe issues occurring like the repression of Operation Tun Tun or the censorship or the moves to enact laws to limit freedoms, etc. But let's get fresh opinions from everyone who helped come up with this article name. @Boud, CoryGlee, CVDX, David O. Johnson, Dustfreeworld, Kingsif, Newslinger, ReyHahn, and Wilfredor: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding a source today: WSJ 22 Aug: TSJ declares Maduro winner "deepening the country's political crisis". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Le Monde, post-election crisis. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anything can be called a crisis, the question is whether this is how one would normally describe it. For example, one could call the Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election a crisis. Supporters of the defeated candidate attempted to overthrow the U.S. government in a coup and replace it with a fascist dictatorship, according to one side. The Democrats stole the election in order to establish socialism, according to the other. Certainly as the country's elected representatives feared for their lives as insurgents constructed a makeshift gallows and stormed the Capitol, it was a crisis. TFD (talk) 17:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can call this an "Attempts to overturn" article, as the fraud is well-documented and accepted in the vast preponderance of reliable sources, and the implications and consequences and after effects go well beyond the actual vote tallies. We talked for weeks about how to name this article; the main article is at 10,000 words, and there is much still to be built here. I recognize the name may need to change down the road, but absent a workable proposal, and after weeks of discussing it over there, there's an article to write, and a better name may eventually appear. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggested aftermath in my comments below. I don't see that it matters whether the count was accurate or not, the results have been confirmed by the courts. Gore had more votes than Bush in Florida in 2000, but we don't call it a crisis. TFD (talk) 03:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Setting aside that presidential elections in the US are decided by the electoral college, not popular vote, there are few similarities between the US Supreme Court case and the situation in Venezuela. In the US instance, there weren't more than 2,000 arrests and disappearances, more than two dozen deaths, broken diplomatic relations and trade between multiple countries, multiple allies involved in attempting to negotiate a peaceful transfer of power, closed borders, voided passports, censored websites and press, detained journalists, minors charged with terrorism and detained without legal representations as two prisons are rehabilitated to house more of same, a crackdown on dissent described by sources as brutal, repressive and unprecedented, or the world's largest refugee crisis-- and that's not all this article deals with. To not describe that as some form of crisis (Guardian, AFP El Pais MercoPress) would be misleading; whether we decide on post-electoral or political or something else, it's not the common and usual "aftermath" of an election. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Infobae 27 Aug. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Miami Herald. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Catholic News Agency, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Diario Las Americas. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BBC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
NTN24 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
La Nacion SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:00, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Guardian. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Infobae, again, 3 September. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we lack a common name yet, but let's wait a bit. Election dispute is indeed a good name but crisis is also valid. There are many chapters already called Venezuelan crisis, this is just another one of them, I do not see a problem with the current title. Also it seems to be backed by sources.--ReyHahn (talk) 08:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi my friends, I will humbly opine, but I hate arguments (just like Toy Story's Rex :P). If we regressed in time, the crisis with Guaidó started in January, when he didn't recognize Maduro's inauguration. Perhaps, we could wait with a stand-by name for the article until January, when I'm sure that González will refuse to concede and recognize. CoryGlee (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer to call it a crisis because this situation tends to extend beyond the election. Wilfredor (talk) 11:52, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't a crisis by definition short-lived? TFD (talk) 17:14, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it is, then crisis in Venezuela has a 14-year problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:18, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
El Diario just called it a "post-electoral" crisis. TFD, in a fast-moving event, which much still to come, in the absence of a concrete proposal for a better name, would you mind holding off for a few days to weeks, so focus can be on building content for now? How short- or long-lived this particular aspect is remains to be seen. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:22, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course one can find sources that use the term crisis, as I mentioned, but the great majority of sources do not, including the signers of the Joint Statement on Venezuela Election.[1] The BBC for example refers to it as an election dispute.[2]
The term crisis is related to the word critical, which is in contrast to chronic. The Chavistas have governed for 25 years Every election since 1999 has been challenged by the opposition, as have most actions of the government. It doesn't mean that everything is a crisis.
The reason there the aftermath of the last election was considered a crisis was that reasonable people believed the government was on the verge of collapse. The crisis ended or was averted when Juan Guaido failed to gain military support either in Venezuela or from the U.S.
At this point, there is no reasonable expectation Maduro will be forced to resign. That could change in which case the term crisis would be more appropriate. TFD (talk) 21:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't know where that leaves us, but having some article under some name which might later change is better than a 14,000-word alternate back at the main election article.
I don't see US documents as being highly relevant as the US doesn't seem to be a major player, and the US president doesn't seem to know what's going on, so we're seeing statements from low-level officials.
I don't think (not sure) you're suggesting this scenario is like any of the previous under chavismo, where evidence of the fraud was not adequately gathered, or was ignored. The BBC article you reference is a week old and the situation has evolved; are you suggesting everything in the TOC, and the TO DO list below--things that are about more than the election dispute--go elsewhere, and if so where?
I'd rather be spending time building content to help see what might be an eventual name, should a change be needed, and still think this the best name we've got as the situation stands. I've not seen a workable alternate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:26, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The joint statement was signed by the EU, UK, Canada and all the usual U.S. allies. The fact that U.S. response has been muted is the reason it hasn't tipped into a crisis. But the U.S. and its allies have already impounded Venezuelan property and implemented sanctions. I think the title of "Aftermath of the 2024 Venezuelan presidential election" would be more descriptive. TFD (talk) 23:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Besides that the territory covered here is a crisis by whatever name, "Aftermath" feels considerably diluted, and has more of the problem you state "Crisis" does: almost no sources use it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Al jazeera,[3] CBC,[4] Reuters,[5] Bloomberg,[6] and many other sources use the term aftermath. There isn't a common name and therefore we should use the most descriptive term. I prefer understatement to overstatement. TFD (talk) 02:32, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those are the same few I found (noting that both Al jazeera and Reuters are also on the list of sources that call it is a Crisis). And then we have a combo: Aftermath called a Crisis from LatinAmerican Post. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:01, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wall Street Journal, aftermath. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TO DO

  1. #Freedom House open letter Have never found a secondary source on this, UNDUE. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. #New law on NGOs SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Expand Public-sector employees dismissed (also Longo case, journalists) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Expand Passports voided Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Finish re-write of transition proposals, started at #Sources for negotiations expansion Ran out of steam, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Add detention of Ana Carolina Guaita and update other journalists and politicians detained (don't miss blackmail in asking she be exchanged for her father) – ABC.es NTN24 NTN24
    Another female journalist, Carmela Longo Reuters Le Monde Reuters El Diario Infobae
    Add to overall censorship and arrests of journalists: Guardian
    Radio NTN24
  7. Expand Tun Tun extortion – NTN24 Added at Tun Tun article, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:23, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Beef up Crackdown section to mention most arrested from slums – eg NewLine and others
  9. Complete reactions to TSJ (UN, OAS, EU etc) – ElDiario ElDiario2 Infobae Infobae ElDiario ex-pres Bolivia NTN24 Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Minors accused of terrorism – WAPO El Diario
  11. Create Caryslia Rodríguez – NTN24 and explain past Chavismo/PSUV conflict of interest; also failure to recuse NTN24 Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Explain composition and brief history of TSJ – ES.wiki NTN24 and less reliable but useful background at Ultimas Noticias and Caracas Chronicles
  13. Expand Censorship, X stil blocked etc. – NTN24 [7]
  14. Diplomatic relations – Infobae Too tangential, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Honduras AFP SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Edni Lopez disappearance AP and more
  16. Isturiz El Diario
  17. HRW letter: Infobae HRW SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Black book of the 2024 dictatorship Infobae SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Diplomatic Infobae SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    IDEA to CPI: [8] Argentina joins calls for CPI arrest warrant:[9] Lulu disapponted: [10] Spain: [11] Embassy surrounded: BBC [12] Revokes Brazil custody: Reuters AP [13] Violates Asylum treaty: [14] Brazil says it will continue: [15] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Briceño and Dueñez BBC [16] [17] tiugj

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:35, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 January 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved, but without prejudice against a new proposal in the coming weeks, per SandyGeorgia. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 14:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

2024 Venezuelan political crisis → 2024-2025 Venezuelan political crisis2024-2025 Venezuelan political crisis - Political crisis is ongoing, and since it's already elapsed into 2025, it should be renamed and moved. 🗽Freedoxm🗽(talk • contribs) 08:55, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Freedoxm. You have misnamed your intended target; the hyphen should be an WP:ENDASH, 2024–2025 Venezuelan political crisis. Nonetheless ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:15, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
How is it even possible to type the hypen long? 🗽Freedoxm🗽(talk • contribs) 18:13, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Freedoxm you can read up on ways to do it at MOS:ENDASH, or you can find it as the first entry at the botttom of the edit window next to the Insert (but that depends on how you edit). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
ok, thanks. 🗽Freedoxm🗽(talk • contribs) 19:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now, as premature.
    First. The political crisis article is about the events surrounding and encompassing the aftermath of the 2024 election and how Venezuela and other countries responded to the failure of the Maduro administration to publish election results, the Maduro crackdown, and diplomatic postures; that 2024 post-election period ended when Maduro went forward with a January 10 inauguration.
    Second. What makes us think this era will be confined to 2025?
    It is too early to say how reliable sources will characterize issues going forward; I have seen sources labeling it a coup, and others calling Venezuela now a dictatorship. At any rate, Maduro has been installed as president, and Venezuela is in a new era.
    Figuring out what to call that era is premature until reliable sources weigh in; right now, most media outlets seem focused instead on events in the US. I suggest withdrawing this move request, waiting at least two weeks for more sources, and meanwhile discussing instead a proposed new name as sources emerge before putting in a formal move request. I have ideas, but suggest that discussing them is premature until we see what reliable sources do. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:15, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Question

Can we add the capture of Maduro to the aftermath section since its related to this in some way? shane (talk to me if you want!) 02:40, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of sources relating the two, so I think we can.--ReyHahn (talk) 08:32, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2024-2025_Venezuelan_political_crisis