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I plan to cahnge the name to deir yassin incident. anyone object? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Etaicq (talk • contribs) 16:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please go back and read the talk page archives. The issues you are raising here have been debated ad nauseam already, and the concensus is that Deir Yassin massacre is the appropriate title. Also check the archives for the ZOA study, which showed that the overwhelming majority of sources refer to this event as a massacre. Gatoclass (talk) 18:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i hope you don't realy mea to tell me that the information in wikipedia is determined by the number of resources from each side. and when you say they describe it as a massacre, do you mean that the sources state that it's a massacre, or that by the definition of wikipedia it's a massacre? Etaicq (talk) 18:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Content on Wikipedia most certainly is determined by the relative proportion of reliable sources supporting a view, see WP:UNDUE. UNDUE is not the only factor taken into account of course, but it's a very important one.

As I said though, your points have already been discussed in great detail on this page. For the number and proportion of reliable sources describing this event as a massacre for example, see the discussion from the section header entitled "Ongoing debate" in Archive 4 of this page. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 19:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed the artice's name is not encyclopedic. It should be changed and it inevitably will. Milstein's academic book is not contested by any scholar. Amoruso (talk) 00:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC) [reply]

Which book exactly ?

Isn't this rather an article ? Ceedjee (talk) 06:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ok. I have found.Ceedjee (talk) 12:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Milstein's academic book is not contested by any scholar.

To note the obvious, Amoruso and repeat what all threads have established exhaustively. After mentioning Milstein's argument on Deir Yassin, Benny Morris writes: 'the existing contemporary evidence paints a different picture’. (1) Benny Morris,The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha,Palestine and the Jews, I.B.Tauris, London, New York 2003 n.327 p.264 (2)The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, 2004 Cambridge UP, Cambridge p.294, notes 563,564. Of course, one could argue that Benny Morris is not a scholar :)Nishidani (talk) 09:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on what he says and if I agree or not ;-)))) -> That is the problem with Morris. One cannot just tag him as "good" or "bad", "black" or "white"... A French journalist said about Morris he was Dr Jekyll and Mr Hide.Ceedjee (talk) 12:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, cher ami. He is a brilliant archival scholar. Judgements only differ when he plays Jekyll/Jeu (de) quilles contre l'haide de ses adversaires professionelles!Nishidani (talk) 12:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that what Nishidani said makes no sense at all, unless he or Benny Morris somehow managed to change the space time continumm. Apparently, Nishidani brings here a reference of Morris from 2003. A different picture of what ? Anyway, Milstein's book is dated to 2007. I will add this to the intro, since much of the article deals with intro, including some of it in the lead. You can't cherry pick what you like from Milstein. Again, if there is a counterview to Milstein's latest book, for example from Benny Morris, one can add it in. 79.181.151.254 (talk) 15:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have here Morris's book from 2008 : 1948 : A History of the First Arab-Israeli War. PP.126-127 he talks about atrocities, the shotting of unarmed civilian, the executation of villagers after they were trucked into Jerusalem and the executation of prisonners in a quarry.

And we could use the same argument as you do : Morris's academic book is not contested by any scholar :-)

Ceedjee (talk) 18:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

I re-established the subsection. :-) Ceedjee (talk) 10:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Uri Milstein, after researching the events of the battle, asserted that "there was no massacre at all," but rather "fighting in built-up areas in which there were many casualties."
• "he military scholar Uri Milstein maintains that massacres were not uncommon during the war and that the events at Deir Yassin, which he believes do not constitute a massacre at all, were unique only in the manner they were "seized upon and publicized by all involved parties, albeit for a variety of different reasons."^[1]
• This analysis is shared by historian Yoav Gelber, who points out that far more Arabs were massacred at Lydda (Lod) or Jews at Kfar Etzion than is claimed were massacred at Deir Yassin.^[2]

This should be added only in a controversy section. If Milstein denies there was a massacre while all (the majority) of other scholars call this a massacre, we must only put this there.

Note somebody added "which he believes do not constitute a massacre at all", which makes that Gelber doesn't share this analysis. He only considers massacres were not uncommon !

Ceedjee (talk) 06:48, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. We went through all this exhaustively last year. Unfortunately Amoruso appears to want to reopen this futile debate again. Gatoclass (talk) 11:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is a fact and what is not is not determined by popular opinion, or even the reactions of those first on the scene. Jenin is a good example of the hype and politicizing that surrounds an event like this, which I will remind everyone was part of a war scenario. Regarding the numbers of dead, the Bir Zeit University study (an Arab study) in 1987 — Arab researchers confirmed that the dead were 107. Once an idea is in the public mind and 'accepted' knowledge, eg that Deir Yassin was indeed a 'massacre' other writers will simply repeat what they believe to be a 'fact', thus creating a myth, of the very sort we are trying to correct here. There are in fact witnesses to the event (mostly from the Jewish side, but not entirely) that claim that there was in fact a battle going on, and that the Jews threw hand grenades into homes that were firing at them, thus causing civilian casualties. Also there are Arab witnesses that claimed that some 11-13 Arab fighters were killed, and Israelis say some 40 Jews were wounded. The question would be that if that was indeed the scenario,(and there is plenty of evidence that it was) would that be a definition of a real 'massacre'? I think not. Juanita (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article should be primarily based on the new evidence, or at least put a lot of focus on this. Wikipedia is not an anti zionist platform, but it's supposed to present the best known facts. People used to think the moon is made of cheese too. Amoruso (talk) 16:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2008, Benny Morris, 1948. A History of the First Arab-Israeli War. Only published in the USA up to now. Should be published on 21 may in Europe and elsewhere... Latest scholrar's book. uncontested. :-)

(note this is not an argument, of course but given it is yours, I do adapt myself).

Amoruso, I assume you are not aware that Israeli scholars decided not to answer and not to review Ilan Pappé, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine... So it will remain uncontested in the academic field... With such arguments as yours, do you realize where we would go... Ceedjee (talk) 18:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ilan pappe's books have been contested by many scohlars and exposed for what they are - trash (Pappe himself does not believe history books should represent the truth btw). Efraim Karsh reviewed this book and refuted it... so what you say is in fact not true. Again, give me a morris quote about the new book, and we can add both opinions then. Amoruso (talk) 02:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not true that Milstein's book is "uncontested". In a withering critique of Milstein's methodology, Israeli psychologist Michael Sharon argues that the book is worthless, since "the testimonies in Dr Milstein's book on Deir Yassin are not valid due to deflection of the cognitive thought of the elderly by the intentions of the interviewer." [1] RolandR (talk) 10:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Imagine a statement like this without any verification: By noon over 100 people, half of them women and children, had been systematically murdered. Or "Over tea and cookies they amplified the details of the operation and justified it..." or "The cemetery was later bulldozed and, like hundreds of other Palestinian villages to follow, Deir Yassin was wiped off the map."

Most of the contentious issues are not even sourced! Juanita (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. I deleted.

due to the energy required to neutralize some editors on wp, we don't see big mess such as the one you pointed out ! Thank you ! Ceedjee (talk) 18:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Deir Yassin was bulldozed and wiped off the map is well-known, built over by a mental hospital. I gave one of many reports in the Deir Yassin page. ^ Noam Chomsky Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel and the Palestinians, Pluto Press , London 1999 p.167 Contest the author if you like, but many reports exist on this (some of the area has the names of Irgun members involved in the massacre memorialized there) Nishidani (talk) 10:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What it has become is not the issue. It can be stated. It was the remaining. (Are you sure you wanted to edit this section ?). Ceedjee (talk) 15:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll say it again. You can't perpetuate this lie to meet your political needs. The lie has been exposed. Now, if you want, you can review the whole article and re-write it. AT THIS STAGE, the article is BASED on URI MILSTEIN, who is NOT CONTESTED in any way. I don't see a quote here contesting Milstein's new book by Morris. Simply writing Morris' name will not be enough. All the article is filled with MILSTEIN'S QUOTES supposedly supporting the massacre fantasy. He says that it never happened in this new book. Therefore, you can't possibly say that old people died there and all these lies, without listing the current book of the scholar you're using ANYWAY ! Not to mention that "number most scholars agree" is itself a lie, as explained. Do not revert the page since it may be construed as vandalism of reliable sources. Amoruso (talk) 01:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You write:'I don't see a quote here contesting Milstein's new book by Morris'.

Of course, if it is a 'new book', it doesn't mean it is the truth, or that lack of immediate review means it is 'uncontested'. Scholars take their time to ascertain the facts. And in the meantime:-

'Milstein admits that whole families were gunned down in the course of the fighting'. Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, 2004 p.294 n.564. Nishidani (talk) 08:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "Morris engages in five types of distortion: he misrepresents documents, resorts to partial quotes, withholds evidence, makes false assertions, and rewrites original documents." [2]Juanita (talk) 03:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Poor Morris. It is not easy to be a real historian nowadays. :-)

Karch was talking about 1988's book of Morris : The Birth. Since then, Morris tuned his work and this work has been widely recognized by all scholars ! There are only some controversies concerning some of his analysis and conclusions. Nothing fundamental.

His last book (1948) has not been much commented. It has just been published. But if you are interested by the 1948 War, you should buy this. I am sure all sides will find quotes they were looking for. It is dense, precise and sourced. It introduces the controversies without (always) taking party.

I haven't finished yet. All I can say is that the 150 first pages are of high quality.

I just wonder about his conclusions... I think he will give his mind there...

Ceedjee (talk) 06:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Can't trust Morris. If Milstein admits that, let's see the Milstein quote. Juanita (talk) 04:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not contested in any way. He is contested by direct contemporary reports written by the Haganah's intelligence chief on the spot.

‘the existing contemporary evidence paints a different picture. One Haganah intelligence report stated: ‘Some of the women and children taken prisoner by the LHI were moved to Sheikh Bader (a former Arab district in Jerusalem). Among the prisoners were a young mother and a baby. The guards killed the baby in front of its mother and after she feinted also murdered her. 7 old persons and women taken prisoner by the IZZI, were paraded through the city streets in trucks. Afterwards the Arabs were taken to Deir Yassin’s quarry and murdered’ . (Yitzhak Levy commander of Haganah Intelligence Service in Jerusalem=summed up the operation.’(There was)) confusion among them (I.e. the attacking IZL-LHI force) . .The conquest of the village was carried out with great brutality. Whole families, women, old people, children, were killed and piles of corpses accumulated. Some of the prisoners taken to places of detention, including women and children, were brutally murdered by their guards. The IZI and LHI men looted and stole quantities of money and food’ cited Benny Morris, The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha, Palestine and the Jews, IB Tauris 2003 p.264n.327

• Morris not trustworthy. Which intelligence report and by whom? Does anyone else cite this source? Juanita (talk) 04:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is Milstein's right to contest contemporary evidence by saying it is not factual. It is not your right as one of many editors to take his revisionism as establishing the facts on the ground. : Nishidani (talk) 10:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nishidani is right.

I have done what was agreed on sooner -> to move the controversy in a sub-section. Ceedjee (talk) 15:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Massacre most commonly refers to individual events of deliberate and direct mass killing where the victims have no reasonable means of defense and pose no immediate physical threat to the assailants." Virtually all sources including Arab sources agree that there was gunfire coming from the homes and that there was a battle. More on this later Juanita (talk) 20:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This has been debated in great depth in Wikipedia, check the archives. (2) No editor will be permitted to challenge the text on 'massacre' by redefining the word idiosyncratically against historical usage. (3) As you suggest we do because some people under fire fired back. That is immaterial. Jews fired back in Warsaw, and no one doubts that that was a massacre on the specious grounds that it can't be, since they tried to defended themselves. So think again, before wasting our time.Nishidani (talk) 20:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not defining the word idiosyncratically against historical usage.

Look up massacre in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Massacre is the intentional killing of a considerable number of human beings, under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to "the usages established among civilized peoples" (International Humanitarian Law term from the Martens Clause). to massacre: 1. (transitive) To kill in considerable numbers where much resistance can not be made; to kill with indiscriminate violence, without necessity, and contrary to the usages of nations; to butcher; to slaughter - limited to the killing of human beings. Juanita (talk) 02:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dajudem,

unfortunately, we don't perform personal analysis on wp. Even if they are wise and pertinent. If the main denomination is "massacre", then we talk about "massacre". If the main denomination is "battle", then we talk about "battle", if the main denomination is "operation" then we talk about operation...

Just to give you some additional material : after the battle, prisonners were killed in a quarry and also in the LHI base at Jerusalem and according to a LHI member, IZL members would have raped and then murdered some women.

Ceedjee (talk) 06:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One could argue that "personal analysis" is misapplied when one employs a concept defined by wp to a discussion in wp about that very subject. What is the purpose of having a definition of "massacre" but then not employing it, particularly in controversial conditions? one might argue that by not addressing the wp defined "massacre" to what happened in Deir Yassin that the concept NPOV, another wp defined concept could be employed when the subject concept is employed. If wp defined concepts are to be abandoned then are we not left without a concensus on the very concepts we use to argue with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Judadem (talk • contribs) 03:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure to get all you wrote... Sorry... But the reason why we cannot use a wp definition to title a topic is that wikipedia is not a reliable source and cannot refer to herself. Each article must refer to Reliable Sources.

Additionnaly, we cannot analyse ourselves primary sources to see if the events fit the definition because we are not expert in the field and we don't know if we have access to all primary sources and we cannot evaluate the reliability of each of them. WP:RS secondary sources are good because they refer to reliable people who studied the topic and have the education, training and experience to give a good analysis. Ceedjee (talk) 12:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i wish to apologize, i am not use to this and will do better Davidg (talk) 04:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about considering Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary definition of massacre?

1 : the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty 2 : a cruel or wanton murder 3 : a wholesale slaughter of animals 4 : an act of complete destruction *the author's massacre of traditional federalist presuppositions R. G. McCloskey*

Is there also a big debate about the Boston Massacre? (I believe only 4 people were killed in that incident.) Does anybody really question that the indigenous population of Deir Yassin was either killed or managed to escape to make way for the jewish state? 169.253.4.21 (talk) 22:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The unhabitants of Deir Yassin were not killed (or managed to escape) "to make way for the jewish state". They were killed during and after a battle aimed at catpuring a village and that took place in the context of the 1948 Palestine War, more particularly the siege of Jerusalem. Ceedjee (talk) 08:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

which makes the use of 'massacre' problematic when employing 'ol reliable, Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary's definition: "1 : the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty"Davidg (talk) 15:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Judadem,

This occured «during and after the battle».

Please, try to read what happened in details and then, only then, come and give your mind.

Today, you just doesn't like it is tagged as a massacre because you don't like these stupid propagandists who associate what happened at that time with Israel today.

Ceedjee (talk) 15:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made corrections to this page because there are facts missing or misinterpretation of sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yehudafievel (talk • contribs) 09:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, the massacre was by Irgun, if I am reading this correctly, and that is not Israel. It was, IMO, a terrorist group, that existed BEFORE the State of Israel was formed. And, this happened before the state of Israel was formed. If you want a category for Pre-Israel Atrocities Committed by Terrorist Groups, that would be more correct.Sposer (talk) 02:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everybody agrees it was perpetrated in the name of Israel. Creating a new category for "Pre-Israel Atrocities Committed by Terrorist Groups" in order to be more "correct" is IMO an exercise in sophistry. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very much the opposite. In fact, if you insist it was by Irgun and Lehi, it is the exact opposite of the Israeli government and system that followed. Category doesn't fit. It's also useless regardless. Amoruso (talk) 10:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You probably don't want to see Category:Terrorist attacks attributed to Palestinian militant groups renamed to "Terrorist attacks attributed to Pre-Palestinian militant groups" either. You can see where this leads. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Palestinians see themselves as Palestinians. There was no Israeli before Israel was created. There are Palestinians before Palestine is/was created. Do some reading on the difference between a Jew and an Israeli. Amoruso (talk) 10:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That difference is pretty obvious to me, and I don't understand why you see that as relevant, though it does tend to become overlooked sometimes. The Irgunites were more nationalist than any other Jews and certainly saw themselves as Israelis. Your technicality objection applies equally well to Palestinian militant groups, which is why this particular can of worms is best left unopened. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what your link has to do with the discussion. You demonstrate that you don't know the difference. Before Israel was created, it wasn't even clear that the country will be named Israel. So the Irgun members didn't see themselves as Israelis, for the simple reason this term didn't exist yet in modern times. So what you wrote is in fact nonsensical. Amoruso (talk) 11:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I have to spell it out, there are (IIRC) three instances of editors confusing the categories "Jews" and "Israelis" in that single section, which makes it a good study object. Again, your technicality objection is shot down by your very own reasoning. The Palestinian nation's future name is not yet known, so, by the same token, all categories and articles with "Palestinian" in the title would have to be considered incorrect. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are no instances of editors there confusing the categories Jews and Israelis. That is your misunderstanding. See article State of Palestine and the Palestine's convoy to the U.N. They chose the name of their proposed country already, and even if not, it's the name of their People, that they have chosen. Jews have chosen the name Jewish as the name of the people before May 15 1948. The fact that you don't know what's the name of the Peoples involved here shows that you can't comment on the section, you lack too much basic knowledge. Amoruso (talk) 12:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would advise you to 1) refrain from making personal remarks and 2) not underestimate my knowledge. As about the Jews/Israelis-confusion in the link I gave you, I count four instances: Jaakobou (twice; he did apologize though), you, and one anonymous editor. That is beside the point however.

By your reasoning, every instance of the word "Palestine" in a category or article pertaining to the time before the name was officially decided should be prefixed with a "pre-". Besides looking silly, it would obstruct the information seeker unnecessarily. The exact name of the still unproclaimed Israeli state is also immaterial — what matters is that the atrocity was perpetrated by people who sought to establish that state. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's not by my reasoning, that's your misunderstanding. Like explained to you, Palestinians are defined as such by themselves whether there's a country called Palestine or not. Israelis don't. They were called Jews. Cheers, Amoruso (talk) 14:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The unexpected but convincing pleading for a Category:Jewish atrocities aside, I think we have already reached consensus here (see below). MeteorMaker (talk) 22:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Refrain from personal attacks. Amoruso (talk) 23:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, any category (insert your nationality, religion, group) atrocities is a POV violation, since, as others have reminded me more than once, the people responsible for the heinous act consider themselves at war. So, by having a category called Palestinian Atrocities, Israeli Atrocities, German Atrocities, George Bush Atrocities of the English Language, you are creating a POV. They should all be stricken from Wiki IMO. If we need to have a category, call it Terrorist Atrocities, or something like that (although any terrorist act is an atrocity). So, what is the process for doing such a thing? Somebody help. Anybody who disagree with this idea is clearly trying to make political statements with such categories.Sposer (talk) 13:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Categories for deletion. There is a current discussion about this one. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On closer examination, I realize I was too narrowly focused on the word "Israeli" and overlooked the "atrocities" part — mainly due to the fact that Sposer did the same when he raised the question. I was under the assumption we were discussing the categorization of Irgun/Lehi as Israeli terrorist organizations. I agree that the category "Israeli atrocities" isn't vital, since it largely duplicates the Massacres in Palestine cat. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it's also a sub category of that. Amoruso (talk) 14:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shevashalosh, stop moving the article. You have to get consensus before moving. Imad marie (talk) 15:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]