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Template:V0.5 Template:Notaforum

Whats the Demonym for Kosovo? Pathfinder2006 (talk) 15:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Kosovars" or "Kosovans", afaik, the former seems more common. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

...and the latter is more correct. Nikola (talk) 15:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then i guess an admin should include it in the infobox? Pathfinder2006 (talk) 15:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I think the correct Demonym is "Kosovars" and not "Kosovans". Please do not invent new unnecessary words here. Piasoft 09:45, 19 February 2008 (ETC)

• There is a term "Kosovans" in dictionary, not "Kosovars". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.223.245 (talk) 14:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What dictionary ? U need citation about this. "Kosovars" is the official and correct term. "Kosovans" is only used by some british media. In International english it is "Kosovars" see thefreedictionary.com. See also: [The Guardian] [CNN.com] [Reuters]

If you follow this logic than you should say Serbians and Kosovans !!! But I think it is Serbs and Kosovars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.70.231 (talk) 16:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think full-protection is in order. There seems to be quite a substantial number of edit revisions here and protection would be the best thing to do until everything can be established with consensus. Rudget. 15:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree aswell, protection is needed until we have more info. Pathfinder2006 (talk) 15:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disagreed . Let people have their say . --My.life.is.muzik... (talk) 15:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AGREED! People are even renaming the file names of the map, that is how strognly some vandals feel about this and as such full protection is needed. Abc30 (talk) 15:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Disagreed . Let people have their say . --My.life.is.muzik... (talk) 15:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of Wikipedia isn't to "let people have their say". It is to provide encyclopedic articles based on information that is agreed by a consesus, preferably using the discussion page. Abc30 (talk) 15:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

** Disagreed . Let people have the possibility to let the World know about the independence of Kosovo . Kosovo HAS been declared independent, Serbia DOES refuse to accept it, these are the FACTS, and Wikipedia fails to deliver this kind of information to the People . Someone who is NOT from the Eastern Yurp may be fooled or just at least confused . The article SHOULD be unlocked, so that the People of Kosovo and/or Serbia, being in the centre of what's happening ATM, would be able to EDIT the article and provide us, the Rest of the World, with the freshest and most recent information . Please unlock the article, otherwise it means introducing censorship and oppression of both the People and the Freedom of Speech and Information on Wikipedia. --My.life.is.muzik... (talk) 15:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a news outlet but an encyclopedia; the priority is not to produce most up-to-date -information but quality encyclopedia articles. Freedom of speech or democracy aren't the issue here either; this is Wikipedia, not a public forum. 89.27.19.182 (talk) 16:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

people from Kosovo/Serbia would be equaly be confused by all of this as well. Pathfinder2006 (talk) 15:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I already stated my opinion, but let's not get into a wheel war here, ok? — Rickyrab | Talk 15:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree With such rapidly changing news, this article is going to be quickly outdated. I doubt the level of semi-protected vandalism will be moreoverwhelming than an FA article. Joshdboz (talk) 15:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you want admins to be wheel-warring over whether or not to protect this article? — Rickyrab | Talk 15:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. I just don't think full-protection should be used on current events. Joshdboz (talk) 15:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - the custom here appears to be semi protection of current events. However, this particular article has been in a squabble for some time, and that's why some admins might want full protection. — Rickyrab | Talk 15:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• It's already been protected. An expiry has been set for 19:00 (UTC) so all facts can be established and the seemingly vandal-accounts can be investigated. Rudget. 15:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think protection is a terrible idea right now, what is worse is the 6 admins who have edited the article since then, IMHO all should be temporarily desysopped for a month for bringing the encyclopedia into disrupte and taking the mickey out of our policies. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This wasa HORRIBLE pre-emptive protection. Bad call, Rudget. ThuranX (talk) 17:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree, at least to the extent of full protection. And what makes it worse is that editing has continued after protection. I'm not even sure I see enough justification for semi-protection. RxS (talk) 17:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you all joking. Block the page for at minimum 24 hours untis situation will be more clear. Like in other languages people did. Strange you have not done it before. About what kind of qualitive edits of the article now can we speak?Dima1 (talk) 22:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The map on this article has been changed to show Kosovo as Independent, so now surely the map on the article Serbia should be changed to exclude Kosovo, or show Kosovo in a different colour to express (Territory claimed by Serbia)? The person who changed the Kosovo map may posses a Serbia excluding Kosovo map, so I appeal to him/her to use his resources and consider making appropriate changes to the article Serbia

(Umbongo91 (talk) 15:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I've just made such a map it's under Image:Serbia without Kososvo in Europe.png Hobartimus (talk) 16:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since Serbia is still claiming it contains also Kosovo, downright exclusion in the map would be equally POV as inclusion. I'd favour having Kosovo in a different shade, as a disputed territory. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I.e. like it's done here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What shade are you looking for? A shaded version was already used in this article to indicate the location of Kosovo within Serbia which were colored with a light color and Kosovo with a deeper color. Hobartimus (talk) 16:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For a location map of Serbia, I'd think of a lighter shade of red, perhaps? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"This is also the position of the remainder of the international community including United Nations." referring to Serbia's rejection of Kosovo's independence. The UN has taken no stand, yet. There have been no statements from the UN. So far only Russia and Serbia have rejected Kosovo's independence.

Y Removed. Rudget. 16:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Text is still there in the lead. Frankchn (talk) 17:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SELF - PROCLAIMED!!!!! Every Country is self proclaimed! Please USE COUNTRY OR STATE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.187.97.146 (talk) 12:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some people seem to think that Wikipedia should ignore the declaration until other countries have acknowledged it. This is not necessary. As long as we for now use the term "self-declared" then it is accurate enough. Abc30 (talk) 15:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It is a fact that they declared independence. That should be noted. — Rickyrab | Talk 15:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For start, I suggest this edit, which should not be controversial. Nikola (talk) 15:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah but the map part IS controversial. The inclusion of Serbia on the map implies that Kosovo is part of Serbia, which of course the Kosovan government would disagree with. It could be considered to the same as including Germany on a map of France - two separate countries. Abc30 (talk) 15:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And how about "The provisional parliament of Kosovo approved a declaration of independence on 17 February 2008, just before 3 pm local time, which the Government of Serbia proactively declared annuled"? — Rickyrab | Talk 15:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, as does practically everyone else. No country has yet recognised Kosovo's independence. But even if you consider the map controversial, the rest should not be. Nikola (talk) 16:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is ridiculous. How about "The provisional parliament of Kosovo declared that it approved a declaration of independence on 17 February 2008, just before 3 pm local time, which the Government of Serbia proactively declared annuled"? Nikola (talk) 16:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nikola, based on your page, you are not exactly 'neutral' in this.--RobNS 16:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The provisional Kosovo parliament declared independence ... which the Government of Serbia proactively declared annulled." — Rickyrab | Talk 16:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

?? Is what I say contentious, or not? Nikola (talk) 16:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you pointed out an opinion of yours on your user page, and it's perfectly okay to point out opinions of yours on your own user page. As for me, I admit to being pro-independence for the moment because, hey, a new country doesn't come around every day. And I'm an American, anyhow. And my country declared independence unilaterally itself. — Rickyrab | Talk 16:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that for the same reasons you are supporting the independence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina or the Republic of Srpska. Nikola (talk) 16:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess. I am neither Serb nor Albanian. — Rickyrab | Talk 16:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, shouldn't a country's name have a spelling that one could actually pronounce? How the heck is one supposed to say "Srpska"? — Rickyrab | Talk 17:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"As for me, I admit to being pro-independence for the moment because, hey, a new country doesn't come around every day. And I'm an American, anyhow. And my country declared independence unilaterally itself." Excuse me, but this sounds absolutely idiotic. Would you say this twice if would California or Texas wanted to seclude from the USA? It is the essence of all the problems in a world because all the "main and rich" countries think that they have right to put their nose in a business that shouldn't interest them. Even though, Kosovo is in their part of interest, what about than with Spain and their regions like Basque or Catalonia striving for independence? What about UK with Scotland and Northern Ireland? What about France and Corsica? I guess you are supporting all these seclusive parties? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.194.142 (talk) 21:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scotland and Ireland willingly joined the United Kingdom in the 18th century, and there is no real movement for it's independence. The United States settled it's problems with seccession in the 19th century.Schism500 (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, not really they didn't. Secondly, Ireland already seceded the UK and thirdly, Scotland is actually already becoming independent (slowly). :D --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let people have the possibility to let the World know about the independence of Kosovo . Kosovo HAS been declared independent, Serbia DOES refuse to accept it, these are the FACTS, and Wikipedia fails to deliver this kind of information to the People . Someone who is NOT from the Eastern Yurp may be fooled or just at least confused . The article SHOULD be unlocked, so that the People of Kosovo and/or Serbia, being in the centre of what's happening ATM, would be able to EDIT the article and provide us, the Rest of the World, with the freshest and most recent information . Please unlock the article, otherwise it means introducing censorship and oppression of both the People and the Freedom of Speech and Information on Wikipedia. --My.life.is.muzik... (talk) 15:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop posting the same content on this page. Your opinion is already in consideration. Rudget. 15:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People from Kosovo/Serbia would be equaly be confused by all of this as well. Pathfinder2006 (talk) 15:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You clearly haven't actually read the article as it currently stands in its protected state. All of the facts that you mention, including that fact that Serbia does not recognise independence, ARE included in the intro. Abc30 (talk) 15:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

please correct it: [Gorani]]s --> Goranis. SyP (talk) 15:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Rudget. 15:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

see german wikipedia, and sources: http://www.ks-gov.net/ and http://www.kosovapress.com/ks/index.php?cid=2,2,38792. sincerly yours, --Petar Marjanovic 15:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The parliament was going to vote on state symbols but the signing of the declaration is taking so long that they stopped reporting on it. Mikebloke (talk) 16:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The flag was just chosen , but the coat of arms is going to be chosen some other time

Its the yellow map og kosovo in a blue field sourrounded at the top by white stars--Cradel 16:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I just saw it but I wish I saw the vote. Mikebloke (talk) 16:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On this very moment, on CNN, we can see the prime minister of Kosovo, together with the president, they indeed just showed the official flag, which is already updated on the dutch wikipedia page. --SalaSSin (talk) 17:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I see the governor of Louisiana on CNN, discussing the US presidential election. Of course, CNN may be showing different things in different parts of the world. — Rickyrab | Talk 17:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC) Dammit, American TV news is so America-centric. Internet news is typically a lot better. — Rickyrab | Talk 17:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok.... CNN Belgium (Europe probably...) is non stop showing everything about the declared independance of Kosovo... Check the video on CNN Europe: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/17/kosovo.independence/index.html#cnnSTCVideo , in the second second (lolz) you can view the coat of arms...--SalaSSin (talk) 17:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. — Rickyrab | Talk 17:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, just checked the french page on wikipedia, they already updated flag & coat of arms--SalaSSin (talk) 17:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cool — Rickyrab | Talk 17:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please re-insert the template. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitaltrust (talk • contribs) 16:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Economy and government sections need updating from dated content (several years old it looks like).
• TLD looks like it'd still be .yu for the time being.
• Calling code would still be whatever mix is currently present List_of_country_calling_codes#Zone_3.

Cwolfsheep (talk) 16:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These actions can be completed when the article is automatically unprotected in 2 hours and 7 minutes. Rudget. 16:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo uses the calling code of Monaco. I suspect a different code might be issued if enough international recognizion is achieved. The TLD will likewise be assigned when the country is recognized. Remember, whatever your thoughts about an independent Kosovo, the country is unrecognized and even after the next few days will be unrecognized by the majority of nations. Wikipedia is not a political tool nor a tool of the USA and UK (which will recognize Kosovo tomorrow). 213.230.130.56 (talk) 18:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The last sentence of the first paragraph: "This is also the position of the remainder of the international community". What does this mean? It appears to say that the rest of the international community considers Kosovo a part of Serbia. I realize that no other countries have recognized independence yet, but is this really an accurate statement? I'm not sure that it's necessary. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 17:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• As I see it, it seems that the US and its NATO allies support the independence movement while Serbia and Russia oppose it. Sources for that should be found rather easily so I think that sentence should be modified. Frankchn (talk) 17:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bit of a problem with wikipedia. Someone always jumps on new news to try and make radical changes as fast as possible. Aren't you jumping the gun a wee bit with this? The blank flag and other details in a nation template like that just looks silly--128.240.229.65 (talk) 17:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{editprotected}} The Parliament of Kosovo has adopted Image:Flag of Kosovo.svg as the flag and Image:Kosovo pisg ca.png as the coat of arms. Would it be possible to put these in the infobox? --Philip Stevens (talk) 17:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't mean to be a stickler, but have you got verification of the adoption? Rudget. 17:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also looking for some way to verify the adoption before adding the symbols, and haven't found anything yet. When someone finds a source, please add it to the Flag of Kosovo & Coat of arms of Kosovo articles first, and the rest will be automatic :-) Best regards, Ev (talk) 17:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have made .svg version of the flag, for easier manipulation. Image:Flag_of_Kosovo.svg. --Ningyou (talk) 17:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've been searching but I can't find it online. I've only seen it on TV. --Philip Stevens (talk) 17:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flag has been added per AGF. It might be removed though, so keep your eyes peeled for any verification as soon as. Rudget. 17:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, and you can see the coat of arms behind Thaci in following CNN video: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/17/kosovo.independence/index.html#cnnSTCVideo --SalaSSin (talk) 17:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See this [1]. It says white, even though in the photo you can see the map is actually yellow, like in the original .PNG. We'll have to wait. --Ningyou (talk) 17:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I think we ought to delay using the flag until it becomes more certain. --Breadandcheese (talk) 17:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, the flag has been updated, please insert the COA too, it can be found on french wikipedia page, and can be found in the video i cited a bit higher, as confirmation.--SalaSSin (talk) 17:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The mere presence of a symbol in a video is not actual confirmation of it being legally adopted as the country's coat of arms. We need something more concrete: preferably the actual text of the resolution, or at the very least a press report. Best regards, Ev (talk) 17:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, it is presumably present there as it was the arms of the Provisional Government of Kosovo. That of course does not mean it will become the arms of the State of Kosovo. We should keep these questionable symbols out of the page until developments become clearer.--Breadandcheese (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Let's put them in as provisional symbols rather than permanent symbols. Encyclopedias are supposed to represent the truth as far as it exists, and omitting information doesn't present the truth. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, my bad :-S, however i agree with Rickyrab...--SalaSSin (talk) 18:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why ? Because the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 18:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nonetheless, even a provisional symbol is verifiable if reliable sources report it. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, nobody disputes that :-) But do we have any concrete verification of any symbol being adopted, be it provisionally or permanently ? I haven't seen any, yet. - Ev (talk) 18:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

< - - - - - - - - - - - Reset indent
Yes, we have, i saw on CNN Europe the flag being presented in the parliament of Kosovo (still searching for any videofeed of this on internet, however.--SalaSSin (talk) 19:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Found Reuters article: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSHAM53437920080217--SalaSSin (talk) 19:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned in my first post to this section, I'm also searching for sources. To be honest, I would very much prefer to have something in writing (the adoption's text, an official press release or at least a press report) than a video. - Ev (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reuter's article by Matt Robinson only states that "a new flag, with the outline of Kosovo in yellow on a blue background under six stars, was carried into parliament". That doesn't say much. let's be patient and wait a couple of days for good sources to appear. - Ev (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, i found the flag in an article of a Priština news agency on http://www.kosovapress.com/ks/index.php?cid=1,2,38819 , however, as i don't understand a word of this language, i can't tell whether this is official or not. Someone?--SalaSSin (talk) 20:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good job, SalaSSin :-) Parliament adopted the flag of Kosovo state, Kosovapress, Pristina, 17 February 2008. I will add it to the Flag of Kosovo article now, with due credits to you :-) Ev (talk) 20:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see that the coat of arms has been updated, but why does the flag still show a '?' when the new Flag of Kosovo has been uploaded onto Wikipedia? (Umbongo91 (talk) 18:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Empty your cache and load the page again. --Ningyou (talk) 18:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of Kosovo

The parliament has deemed this to be the flag. No need to argue over this issue.

The new flag being presented in front of Kosovo's Parliament 17. February, 2008

Thank you, Vseferović (talk) 20:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we're trying to find reliable sources (the adoption's text, an official press release, or at least a press report) to add to the Flag of Kosovo article. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 20:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Its just that someone removed it from the article, so I decided to post the link. I completely agree with you. Probably by tomorrow there will be more concrete information. Thank you, Vseferović (talk) 20:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made a request for the interim seal to be SVGified on WP:GL - hope this helps. 67.41.182.153 (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both logos (PSIG and new one) SVGified. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 01:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://zeljko-heimer-fame.from.hr/descr/ks.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.16.107 (talk • contribs) 23:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While flags, symbols and data for the self-declared republic should be included - so should the flags, symbols and data for the de jure autonomous province. This is what has been practiced on the pages for the de facto states Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It's a fair and unbiased way to do things... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Misha bb (talk • contribs) 11:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sensitive content needs control over editing!

One has to take into consideration that Kosovo is still part of Serbia. One part of Kosovo will never accept independence and current independence can be compared to Cyprus where Turkey proclaimed independence. For some country to be accepted internationally has to be approved by United Nation security council. Even so called Turkish part of Cyprus is accepted by some countries not by United Nation.

Kosovo is Serbia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.17.185 (talk) 17:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia makes no particular presumptions either way. As the page says, it is a self proclaimed independent republic - not dissimilar to the stance taken on the Northern Cyprus page.--Breadandcheese (talk) 17:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's very hard to understand situation at hand and one has look at international law as the only option. I understand this fact may hurt many albanians living in Kosovo but current official status of Kosovo according to international law is that Kosovo is part of Serbia. We'll see what future will bring and wait for decision of United Nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.17.185 (talk) 21:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question: is Taiwan really part of China? That country never actually declared independence, yet it is de facto independent. How should we explain that? — Rickyrab | Talk 18:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the current articles on those subject seem to describe the situation pretty well: Taiwan is either Chinese Taipei or run by the Republic of China, but Beijing considers it to be part of the People's Republic of China and thus subject to Beijing rule, not Taipei rule. But Beijing's stance is not the de facto situation, given the military and political positions of those in power on Taiwan. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, no, no, no. The status of the two Chines is as its name suggests - two Chinas. Both mutually claim each other and don't recognize the other. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Try telling that to the one-China diplomats. LOL — Rickyrab | Talk 18:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyhow, independence is a touchy subject when people are closely connected to the land. We Jews have the same problem: Eretz Yisrael, and a lot of Jews consider Judea and Samaria to be part of that country. Palestinians would disagree, and the de facto situation there appears to be kind of independence in some parts and Israeli control in some parts.... I know how a Serb might feel. Nonetheless, a country has declared independence and some countries are apparently on the verge of recognizing it. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So far Russia, Cyprus and Spain have declared against it, following the Serbian Head of Government and Head of State's objections. Only Taiwan has greeted it and Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossettia, which announced intensified attempts for recognition of independence. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A one China diplomat is likely to recognise that there are currently two entities which proclaim themselves to be the one true China. They simply don't agree on who is right. The PRC one China diplomat will of course proclaim that the PRC is the true one China and the other one is a renegade whereas the ROC one China diplomat will of course proclaim that the ROC is the one true China and the other one is a renegade. BTW, Taiwan is quite a different situation from Kosovo for the reasons already mentioned. Furthermore, nearly every single major country still accepts the one China policy. (And as has already been mentioned, even the ROC currently accepts the one China policy, they just don't believe the PRC is the real China) Nil Einne (talk) 19:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the term "Република Косово" exists in Serbian language. It should be removed from the article. And why there's a map of Kosovo as an independent country? It's true that it pronounced it's independence today, but it is not internationally recognized and it is not a member of the UN. Notice that those remarks are not a provocation, but an objective evaluation of the article (I'm not Serbian or Kosovar). --SOMNIVM (talk) 18:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is often a lag period between proclamation of independence and international recognition. Meetings have to be conducted. Official recognition has to be done via whatever official procedures exist. And so on and so forth. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but during this period we should stick to what is internationally recognized. --SOMNIVM (talk) 18:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there a Turkish translation of "Kosovo"? Turks only account for 1% of the population. I think this should be removed - 67.41.182.153 (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. There are also 1-2% of Gorani, many of them defining themselves as Bulgarians or Macedonians, so if there is a Turkish translation, Bulgarian one should be available too (though, it is the same as the Serbian one).--SOMNIVM (talk) 18:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there is a view among Kosovars that Kosovo is sovereign, and if recognition is expected, then isn't calling Kosovo a non-sovereign territory POV? I wanted to make a footnote in that template about Kosovo's declaration of independence, but, alas, it was under cascading protection. So I removed the template as being POV. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is NOT what we agreed on before, we agreed on the term "region". I hope that those that have participated in the discussion with me will support our agreement. Thank you. --GOD OF JUSTICE 18:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, and I really have no sides in this, but based on your User page, you are obviously very biased here. I have no problem with Kosovo being what it wants to be, be it its own country, or a part of Serbia. Either way is OK with most of the world. But they have decided to go it alone, and they may be worse off for it, and Serbia maybe better off, who knows, and it is what it is. --RobNS 19:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, Kosovo isn't the first country to have done this sort of thing. "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government." — Rickyrab | Talk 19:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like the use of "republic" either. Why don't we change it to "a self-declared independent state". I read quickly though their declaration of independence, and there's only one reference to Kosovo as a republic. I didn't see where they formally declared the name of their state. "State" seems like the most neutral term we could use (when preceded by self-declared...), and when they come up with a formal name, we can use that. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 19:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Self declared nation state, ok. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Nation state" is a horrible term that carries connotations of ethnicity, and is precisely the kind of term we need to avoid. "Country" or "state" would be much better. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 19:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but some of us are more used to states being places like New Jersey and New York. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So why not "country"? — Rickyrab | Talk 19:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well it is to be expected that Americans would only look at the term "State" as being something within their own nation. Most people recognise Americans aren't the brightest crayon in the box when it comes to International issues. From what I remember, the term "State" comes from France. Most international institutions use the term "State", two very good examples being the United Nations and European Union. The member nations of such organisations are called "Member States". But again, we're talking about American understanding here :S. Mattrix18 (talk) 04:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please don't assume everyone who self-identifies as Serbian is automatically a nationalist with a POV to push. God of Justice is making a perfectly rational argument here. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 19:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

good point — Rickyrab | Talk 19:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I changed republic to state. We can continue to discuss the correct term (I don't care for region) but "republic" needed to go. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 19:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rickyrab, take a look at State. I think the relevant portion is this:

• Country denotes a geographical area
• Nation denotes a people who are believed to or deemed to share common customs, origins, and history. However, the adjectives national and international also refer to matters pertaining to what are strictly states, as in national capital, international law
• State refers to the set of governing institutions that has sovereignty over a definite territory

State is simply the most accurate term, and in political science and international relations we use the term "state" most often. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 19:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, fine. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that 'state' is not appropriate for Kosovo at this time as they don't have a constitution. 'Country' would be a better compromise IMHO. --158.36.227.175 (talk) 22:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that the term "Republic of Kosova" would be appropriate after the United States and most European Union members recognise it on Monday as such. Other nations such as Australia will follow soon after. The point is most of the world will recognise it, except for only a few of Serbia's allies. Israel is a State even though it is not recognised by most of the Arab world. The argument about Kosova not having a constitution is clutching at straws. The United Kingdom does not have a specific constitutional document either, but does have a constitution through its basic laws and also common law. Mattrix18 (talk) 04:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We could not the reaction from Belgrade. There are numerous demonstrations across the city, police is all around. They were mostly acted against the US and Slovenian embassies. There are injured people and a severe destruction across the streets. Serbian TV also stated that Brazil's embassy has just been demolished. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Put it in the article, then. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We could also add the Serbian government's resolution, passed by the parliament, which declared the declaration of independence invalid. The National Assembly will also hold a session tomorrow to reconfirm that, and the State will organize in Thursday (Government and Parliament in coordination) what is supposed to be the most massive meeting in Serbia's history, with all of Serbian political leaders present. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to hear about the disturbances, Pax. Try to add such info to the sub-articles (for example, in a "reactions in Serbia" section of the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence one). Later on, when things calm down, we can see how much of that should be mentioned here, in the main article's summary. And please remember to add the necessary references :-) Best regards, Ev (talk) 19:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that my "stress level" is at the top right now. My best friend's car has been demolished by the demonstrators. Not only that Brazil's embassy is damaged, but also the seat of the Liberal Democratic Party. 18 people are injured so far. Balkans constantly keep dissappointing me over and OVER and OVER and over again. I now that right now I'm not usual neutral, calm or whatever-myself, but I am SICK of all this....again. I have just reconfirmed myself that I'm moving to Germany, Canada or Spain pronto. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Y'know, eventually the reactions section may become a separate article, if the events become numerous enough... — Rickyrab | Talk 19:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, we already have from Taiwan, Russia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, South Ossettia, Cyprus and Spain. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't spotted those yet, where can I read more? Maybe we should expand List of states that have recognized the Republic of Kosovo as the article with international reactions or it there another one already? --Tone 19:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I understood that's only for internationally recognized (UN-seated) countries? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 20:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reaction in Belgrade has nothing to do with the Republic of Kosova. The riots are simply a "news item", that do not belong in an article about a nation. That would be like adding a paragraph about the Seattle WTO riots inside the wiki on the United States of America. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it isn't indymedia, it isn't the BBC. If you like writing about news, why not go on wikinews? Mattrix18 (talk) 04:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why Brazil? Brazil hasn't even done anything yet. That was stupid and irrational. So was the Liberal Democratic Party incident. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hooligans. The Slovenian embassy was attacked, luckily only windows were smashed. They are attacking the Albanian embassy right now. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They're now having another go at the US embassy, and also will try to attack the Government of Serbia. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's hope there are still people keeping their calm, or opposing to violence in this matter. It never solves anything... Btw, pax, you're welcome in Belgium ;-)--SalaSSin (talk) 16:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i'm albanian from kukes, an albanian province which is closely related to Kosovo. until the borders were closed it went with kosovo, and although i'm not ggod on using your page i must give my say. this article seems terribly serbian directed, and wouldn't it be signed wikipedia i'd have a laugh on it and let it go. first the history of Dardania starts thousands of years before the 9-th century. dardani got a meaning in albanian, "land of pears", and there were people who lived it. at the battle of kosovo was aan alliance of all the balkan princes, many albanians, like Gjergj Muzaka, or the Dukagjini, leaded by King Lazar, and the territory of the war was not serbian but Balkanian, or albanian at closest watch. millosh obiliq in our history is known as an albanian named Kopiliq, and we do not discuss the consequences came to the labanian nation by that defeat. the middle Ages are a grat struggle of the balkanians to win their freedom, but the most fiercely fighting theturks, the albanians, were the most forgotten. the turkish jeune turks revolution started on kosovo leaded by albanians, and there were no serbs in there. it was that the cause who gave fire to serbian expansion on albanian damage. next, i'm from kukes, and my great grand father, Avdi Koka and a lot of his cousins were killed by what u call a retreating and defeated army. it passed three times through my land in recent, modern history, from 1912 to 1920 and brought death thrice to our land. poeple from our lands tell that mothers were killed with their children on their arms with a sole bullet, and pregnant women were raped and then taken off their fetus to be given to dogs. these are not things done by a retreating and defeated army, who comes well armed and well organised to occupy and destroy. things well seen on the masacre of Bosnia. serbs are treated as victims in your article. how should i feel? should i denounce u for diffamation? my ancestros blood was poured by serbian bayonets, and u call them victims? shouldn't u consult better and independent sources and write a more decent article? i'm sorry for disturbing, but reading your article left me a bad taste. and i'm here thinking of the story of the lamb and the woolf. who was guilty? of course the lamb. the woolf was hungry, and greedy, and ate the lamb. thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shkinak (talk • contribs) 20:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, find a reliable source, and write about it. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to direct attention to this related AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Albanians in Serbia (2nd nomination). It's a complicated case that would benefit from more discussion than it received last time. Thanks! // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 20:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, recognition of its independence is yet unrecognized by anyone - it should be noted.

Second of all, the PISG institutions are there only to aid UNMIK in governance. Declaration of Independence of Kosovo can't be issued by the Assembly of Kosovo, but by Joachim Rucker. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, how is it with Kosovo being administered by UN? Does this change now when the assembly declared independence? --Tone 21:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It changes only if UNMIK recognizes that. The PISG Assembly of Kosovo is no sovereign body of Kosovo at all and has no legal power to this kind of act at all (this precisely isn't even controversial, it really can't do it). In the following days that will change. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, content is being changed and in this case official name/title...this page should be locked only to reputable members of wikipedia. Not for anybody to make a change with new member account...official name is KOSOVO not KOSOVa (as explained in article Kosovo, o/serbian and a/albanian way of saying).

Officially KOSOVO is stil part of Serbia and official title should be KOSOVO!

This article should be locked from further editing to only reputable members. [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.17.185 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "Ivanljig (Talk | contribs) (72,386 bytes) (kosovo is not the country yet, Serbia annulment declarations of the independence, and UN 1244resolution is still on power.)":

Yeah, tell it to the former American colonies, you know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiscient (talk • contribs) 22:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

? Kosovo's not a colony. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not the point.

Consider "Serbia annulment declarations of independence" in the light of the outcome to the "Britain annulment declarations of independence" controversy(ies):

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..."

--Wikiscient (talk) 23:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo cannot be recognised by Wikipedia as an independent country until it has been recognised by the United Nations. There are many territories around the world claiming to be independent countries but cannot be internationally recognised as a sovereign state until the United Nations recognises it to be so. Signsolid (talk) 22:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We are not the mouthpiece of the United Nations. We reflect on de facto sovereignty, not de jure sovereignty, although we also discuss controversies involving the latter. —Kurykh 22:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And yet it has got no de facto sovereignty. The UNMIK still administers it. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is obligatory that "self-declared" be removed only after recognized by the UN as suggested above. Switzerland only became UN member several years ago, not even mentioning the fact that countries have existed long before the UN was founded. Taiwan is listed as a country (Republic of China) in Wikipedia, but as far as I know it is common knowledge that they aren't recognized by the UN. With regard to small countries at least in the past, quite recent past history it wasn't always clear if a country was or wasn't formally recognized by another country across the globe. I suggest removing "self-declared" once 1/4 of World countries (about 50) recognize Kosovo formally. Unless there are rules or guidelines I am unaware about. --Bete (talk) 20:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which one is the actual coat of arms of Kosovo?

• This one...
  This one...
• ...or this one?
  ...or this one?

There's constant switching between the two, and we need to settle on one, or none at all. —Kurykh 22:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The second one is the coa of the Provisional Institutions of Self Government, while the first one is the flag introduced after the independence declaration (but not legally adopted yet) and the only proposed as the "coat of arms of Kosovo" so, if there has to be one, it should be the first. --B1mbo (talk) 22:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the article must display one, it would probably be the image at left (see Coat of arms of Kosovo). I would prefer to display none until one is officially adopted by the Assembly of Kosovo. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We could use the dummy image (Sin escudo.svg) until a consensus is reached or the situation regarding the coat of arms is confirmed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dn9ahx (talk • contribs) 22:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The one on the left is the new coat of arms of the country. David (talk) 22:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kosova Press has also the left image showing [3] Alexanderpas (talk) 23:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The one on the left is not yet approved by international community. 194.249.99.162 (talk) 08:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't need to be approved by the international community. —Kurykh 01:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The image of the provisional coat should be replaced by its new vectored version, Image:Coat of arms of the PISG of Kosovo.svg. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"We, the democratically elected leaders of our people, hereby declare Kosovo to be an independent and sovereign state. This declaration reflects the will of our people and it is in full accordance with the recommendations of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari and his Comprehensive Proposal for the Kosovo Status Settlement.

We declare Kosovo to be a democratic, secular and multiethnic republic, guided by the principles of non-discrimination and equal protection under the law."[4] --Jambalaya (talk) 22:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Self proclaimed, with no currency and hymn of it own, UN administred ... I think this is far from independence. Especially if it is becoming independent from Serbia, then it will become independent when it is recognoized by Serbia and UN in general. Until then it is UN administred province of Serbia no matter what politicians say. Where are the consulats, currency, army, police etc. everything that makes de facto country? And de jure is obviously disputable,too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.44.135 (talk) 23:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The same could be said for many countries in Europe - the Vatican City, Andorra, San Marino, Lichtenstein, Morocco all don't have their own currencies, armies, etc. But they are countries. David (talk) 23:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last time I checked, Morocco had a currency and an army, and wasn't located in Europe. Do you mean Montenegro? Aecis^Brievenbus 23:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably Monaco. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry!! Meant Monaco. David (talk) 23:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're drifting off-topic, but: Monaco has a currency and something of a military. Aecis^Brievenbus 00:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It uses the Euro just like Kosovo does. And just like Kosovo it relies on a foreign power for its security against other foreign powers. David (talk) 00:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, Monaco uses the Euro just like the Netherlands, France, Finland and all the other countries with the Euro. It even has the right to mint its own Euro coins. Aecis^Brievenbus 00:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, major difference to compared states is: a) they have strong historical background of their independence b) they are recognoized by UN and countries on whose territories they are c) they are NOT under UN administration d) they are not self proclaimed

About euro: Only country that I know that is not EU member and uses euro is Montenegro. I think Kosovo uses euro just because its under EU/UMNIK administration, so its easier to foreigners + it has no central bank of its own.

Plus as far as I know Parliament of Kossovo should not have authority of such act, so its decision is automatically nulled (they are only provisional gouverment). Also, northern part of Kosovo does not recognoize it, so its likely they will devide among themselves.

In many ways, this is another Balkanization and unique case, no matter how much EU/US politicans say it is not ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.175.72.116 (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Andorra also uses the Euro and like Montenegro it doesn't mint its own coins. Monacco, Vatican City and San Marino use the Euro but DO mint their own coins. Other countries like Estonia, Latvia and Bosnia Hercegovina have fixed their currencies to the Euro. I agree though that some Wikipedians are getting a little carried away and treating Kosovo as a 'real' country when barely a handful of countries have recognized it and the fact that its 'parent' country (Serbia) refuses to acknowledge it and also at least one Security Council member (Russia and maybe also PR China) refuse to acknowledge it. Without UN Security Council recognition it isn't a country. 213.230.155.25 (talk) 21:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Notaforum

Suppose someone wants to talk about Kosovo and reveals that it is appropriately related to the article because they're saying "Please, I can't find this info anywhere in Kosovo's Wikipedia article". What kind of response is appropriate here?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personal interpretation, but I think that just means "Don't turn this into alot of unprofitable discussions (Or in this case, riots)". If they're after information that legitimately belongs in this articel, but can't find it, I don't think that's grounds for removing it. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 01:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since primary language of the new country is Albanian, primary Kosovo place names used in English Wikipedia should be Albanian place names - for example the name of the Kosovan capital that we mostly use in Wikipedia should be Prishtina, not Priština. 81.18.54.245 (talk) 23:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No all the place names should be in ENGLISH where an English form is available. So it should be Pristina. Abc30 (talk) 23:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Before discussing changes to the naming of this article and all Kosovo-related topics, please review our general naming conventions and the specific ones on geographic names and using English.

The names will be changed only if common English usage switches from the current ones to something else. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 01:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo is old. The new name of the new state is KosovA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.220.244 (talk) 23:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo is KosovO. And you will have to provide further evidence before making such claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.74.160.18 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's Kosovo in the English language still. David (talk) 23:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As David has said, this is the English language Wikipedia, and the rules of the English language apply. That's why the article on Germany is called Germany, and not Deutschland. Kosovo is still known in the English language as Kosovo. Aecis^Brievenbus 23:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kosova
The main name of the article is Kosovo. Please change it to Kosova, and when u search for "kosova" i wish that it will apear.=D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.220.244 (talk) 23:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The English name is Kosovo and it shall stay like this. There is a redirect existing for Kosova. And it is also mentioned in the introduction that the Albanian name is Kosova. We have discussed this before. --Tone 23:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Before discussing changes to the naming of this article and all Kosovo-related topics, please review our general naming conventions and the specific ones on geographic names and using English.

The name will be changed only if common English usage switches from Kosovo to something else. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 23:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The official name is "Republic of Kosova" not "KosovO". Does Wikipedia list Kolkata as "Calcutta"? NO! Kosovo is Kosova User:Samian —Preceding comment was added at 00:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In English it's Kosovo just as Germany is called Deutschland in German and Germany in English. Signsolid (talk) 00:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am inclined to stick with Kosovo as well, as it is common English usage. If things change later, that is fine, but let's just leave it at that for now. SorryGuy  Talk  00:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to use this opportunity to remind some of the users getting frustrated over this issue to observe and respect the Wikipedia policy of WP:Etiquette Template:Calm talk Signsolid (talk) 00:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of a simple comparison, compare the Google news hits for Kosova and for Kosovo. Google trends indicates something similar. The goal, remember, if to use the commonly used term. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The number of articles displayed for Kosovo on the Google news search is 14,235 and 130 for Kosova. Signsolid (talk) 00:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Raw Google searches are hardly a good indicator of general usage. Try instead the six methods proposed in the naming conventions on geographic names (which includes Google Scholar and Google Books, but only when used carefully). - Best regards, Ev (talk) 01:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the coming days, the new Kosovan Constitution will define the country's name as Kosova, and urge other countries to address the country as such even in their native language. Just like East Timor is Timor-Leste, Ivory Coast is Côte D'ivoire...So we should wait for a couple of more days in order to change the name from Kosovo to Kosova. We need to have exact evidence for this name shift in English. Wikiturk (talk) 07:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just because the government wants us to call it by a certain name, does not mean that we will. The East Timor article is located at East Timor with the English spelling, because despite what the government wants, nobody in English calls it Timor-Leste. As for Cote d'Ivoire, this name has found its way into the English language because of reasons such as that country's participation in sporting events using that name. IF people in the USA, the UK and other English speaking parts of the world start calling Kosovo Kosova in their everyday conversations, THEN the page will be renamed. Abc30 (talk) 12:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some people use "Timor-Leste" and I wish more would - it's so much more evocative than the pedestrian "East Timor". But you're right in that the vast majority of people still say "East Timor", so that's, for now, the correct English title. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would strongly suggest that the inevitable disagreements surrounding the independence declaration be discussed here on the talk page rather than through reverts and edit summaries. The other option is page protection. - Revolving Bugbear 00:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely and totally agree. I have gone ahead and contacted people on their talk pages to let them know they should discuss here before making changes. Cheers, SorryGuy  Talk  00:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The Slavic tribes, although nominally under Byzantine vassalage, essentially ruled themselves."

This surely must be joke. Here we are in a situation where the independence of Kosovo has all but been affirmed by most states that have any real bearing on this issue, and wikipedia writes speculations, such the one above, for truths. Nobody knows for sure the demographical characteristics of Kosovo during the ottoman occupation. Below you will find a reference to that effect.

Well I suggest that you first discuss then make an article for a country that is self-proclaimed independent. Now, this policy isn't the policy of an encyclopedia. With all my respect an encyclopedia doesn't recognize states the way NATO does and the fact that there is an article when the state is not recognized yet means that it's not part of an encyclopedia. I hereby request that changes like this don't happen without careful planning. This encyclopedia is for international use and I assume that some won't be pleased with this change (I'm not serbian), for it is a change against the most basic rules of being objective. If self-proclaimed countries are to be considered de facto and de jure independent then anyone could decide to become independent and be recognized. I don't want to flame here but it is indeed curious how a nation carries flags of an other nation (People of Kosovo carried Albanian flags). Is this a hint? If you ask me this article should not exist in Wikipedia, because it's simply not objective.

http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showpdf.cgi?path=4273926506535 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.77.72 (talk) 01:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone should keep an eye on the following editors, constantly reverting this article and violating the NPOV policy:

• Epson291
• Dpaajones
• Getoar
• Azalea pomp

☆ CieloEstrellado 01:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I told you on your talk page, name-calling does not help in constructing a NPOV article. If you feel as statement is POV, please explain why and justify such with policy. However, calling established editors names does not help anyone and does not assume good faith. If you could please explain why you feel their editing is POV, or explain how you would like to make the article more NPOV, it is appriciated. SorryGuy  Talk  01:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've modified my post, as requested. Saying all of them had a pro-Kosovo agenda was unfair. Some probably are just over enthusiastic over the self-declaration of independence of a small country and suffer from Recentism. My bad. ☆ CieloEstrellado 01:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs to reflect that Kosovo is an independent country which is in the process of getting recognized by most of the major states of the world. Azalea pomp (talk) 03:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice if you and other editors could have bothered to read the discussion under #When above. The version of the intro that I just restored is one that was worked out before the declaration of independence. The version you've just restored is, frankly, badly written and factually incorrect (it's not "internationally recognized as a province of Serbia" - that's the central point of the controversy, since many countries have said that they'll recognise its independence). And for the record, you've reached your three reverts, so please stop repeatedly reverting. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tell me how it is badly written (examples) and how it is factually inaccurate. If Kosovo is not recognized as a province of Serbia then how is it recognized then? Certainly not as an independent country. many countries have said that they'll recognise its independence Yes, but they haven't done so officially yet. Don't jump the gun. The intro you're pushing for is horribly written and suffers from a bad case of recentism. ☆ CieloEstrellado 03:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where shall we start? It doesn't mention the international community's view (the partial recognition of Kosovo that's coming today). It's inconsistent with how we treat other breakaway states like Northern Cyprus, Transnistria etc, which we don't describe as "disputed regions" - they're states, whether you like it or not. A "disputed region" is just too vague - most disputed regions are not in fact states. It doesn't mention the international presence in Kosovo - UNMIK, KFOR, EULEX etc. It's ungrammatical. In short, it's simply not satisfactory, as it leaves out a great deal of vital infomation, it isn't very well written and it's inconsistent. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My goodness, I've been singled out because I reverted a massive attack on the article last night when the whole article was changed to a position as though nothing had happened and Kosovo was merely a part of Serbia. This is ridiculous. Those who pretend that Kosovo is still part of Serbia are living in denial. David (talk) 11:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please keep an eye on KosMetfan, he's so quickly reverting the page after someone reloaded the one we're all agreeing to, it makes me dizzy...--SalaSSin (talk) 17:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I blocked him for 24 hours for vandalising a number of other articles. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't mention the international community's view (the partial recognition of Kosovo that's coming today) You said so yourself, coming, it hasn't happened, don't jump the gun. It doesn't mention the international presence in Kosovo - UNMIK, KFOR, EULEX etc. Are you blind, it does mention UNMIK and KFOR, but not with those names, as for EULEX, it's non existant right now in Kosovo, don't jump the gun. It's ungrammatical. How? it isn't very well written How? ☆ CieloEstrellado 02:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm kind of baffled at the current situation of this article. The country exists, whether we want it to or not, it has an official flag, official name(s), all makings of a de facto sovereign state. It's just its inception and the recognition of it that is politically controversial. Can we just have some agreement on whether the official names (Republic of Kosovo and the Albanian and Serbian names) and flag be posted in the infobox? —Kurykh 02:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently not, thus my "A PLAGUE ON ALL YOUR HOUSES" comment and my merciless trimming of the infobox. We do not take any position on whether it is a republic behaving freely or an autonomous province behaving badly; we only say that it is Kosovo. DS (talk) 02:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am in support them, for the reasons you cite, but at the moment I am unsure if there is consensus for it. SorryGuy  Talk  02:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So why don't we have the interim seal in the infobox? - 67.41.182.153 (talk) 02:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, we do not take any position. That means that if the Assembly of Kosovo call their country "The republic of Kosovo" then we're doing it too. --Jambalaya (talk) 03:12, 18 February 2008

(UTC)

The article needs to be protected from these eccentric edits that Kosovo is anything but an independent country. It has declared its independence and it has and will be recognized by most states. So therefore this page needs to reflect this. Azalea pomp (talk) 03:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest you tone down the attitude that edits conflicting your point of view are somehow "eccentric" and should be barred from the article. It is inflammatory and surely not helpful to reaching any kind of consensus. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 06:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have ANY proof or a list of all the countries who will recognize Kosovo?... The article here on wikipedia only has a hand full of countries, about the same amount of countries who have declared they wont recognize it... What I've read Russia will probably prohibit them from joining the UN. And th Serbian-Russian team will try to get as many of their friends together to not recognize Kosovo. Btw, I declare this room as the Republic of Cooltown. Give me a article as a country... I mean it will be recognized by most states. Chandlertalk 06:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like everybody here is simply wasting their time. and I don't mean this in a mean way at all, but quite in the literal way. There are so many places that have "State" status (i.e. Infobox with flag, coat of arms, etc) on Wikipedia, despite having a disputed status : Republic of China aka Taiwan, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic aka Western Sahara, and if you really want me to, I will go find all the other places. Just like in the Kosovo article, it is well explained in these pre-cited articles that the claim of these places to statehood are not universally recognized, and we all seem to be happy with that. I feel like those who are decrying the "recentism" and the political motivations of those who are eager to make sure that Wikipedia matches the reality on the ground, should maybe (at least for some of them) look into political motivations of their own. Themalau (talk) 04:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "country" heading on the right side of the screen dictates that the cities and regions of kosovo are still "Serbia" while this is not true due to the fact they declared "self independence". These should be changed to reflect this.

If you dont know what i am talking about, here is an example.

When i click on "Dragaš" in the section entitled "Administrative Divisions", Municipalities" on the Kosovo page it reads on the right side in the information bar

Country Flag of Serbia Serbia Province Flag of Kosovo Kosovo (under UN Administration) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muscatp (talk • contribs) 05:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article should reflect official usage so I am changing the main name title to Republic of Kosovo.--Getoar (talk) 06:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You mean article name or name in infobox? —Kurykh 06:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the beginning it should say:Kosovo, officially the Republic of Kosovo etc..--Taulant23 (talk) 06:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I meant the name on the inbox should say REPUBLIC OF KOSOVA, while the article should be titled as Taulant put it.--Getoar (talk) 06:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the capital city should appear as Prishtina. It is compliant with English spelling/pronounciation as well as that of the first official langauge.--Getoar (talk) 06:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. In English, Pristina or Priština is the more common spelling, and we follow the more common English spelling. Prishtina is rarely encountered. For precedent, see Kiev/Kyiv. —Kurykh 06:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's no such thing as transitional president/prime minister anymore, I believe. I removed those terms as I think they are not appropriate since Kosova declared its independence. Likewise, Ruecker's name should be taken off soon.--Getoar (talk) 06:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise on capital name: Pristina, with no diacritic. The Albanian version is simply not commonly seen in English, no matter how fiercely one may protest. —Kurykh 06:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't compromise on such issues, but I'll just wait for the Kosovar government to suggest the official name Prishtina for use in foreign languages. Then I believe we'd have to choose Prishtina.--Getoar (talk) 08:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No we do not have to choose Prishtina; we are not government mouthpieces. If you don't compromise then you leave me no choice but to stand my ground. Per longstanding precedent and convention, we aim for the most common English spelling, not what the Kosovo government dictates us to do. In this case, Pristina is the most common by a large margin. Please see the Kiev naming dispute (where the Russian name, Kiev, took precedence over Kyiv, the Ukrainian name, due to common English usage of the former) before further commenting. Just because Pristina happens to be a Serbian derivation does not mean it cannot be the most common name in English. And I note you gave no response to my previous comment regarding this, which is just a rehash of what I just said, but you just reverted it with the same repudiated and discredited reason. —Kurykh 08:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As an outsider and native English speaker, I suggest we go for Pristina, which is the usage in the UK. If, as Getoar notes, the Kosovar government requests that the world uses Prishtina, major media outlets will comply, as they did, for example, in the case of Cote d'Ivoire (formerly Ivory Coast), and we can then follow suit. Until then, we should use the common English spelling, and we can note the variants. Grace Note (talk) 10:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Pristina, without an H or a diacritic is the most common spelling I have seen. Wikipedia should use the English spelling in most common usage amongst native English speakers. Abc30 (talk) 12:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have just started to work on the history section. I have not offered citations so far, but I promise I will have them ready soon. The separate article on the history of Kosova could be expanded, but the main articles should not include too many information and usually useless and dubious demographic analyses. My edits are good-willed and I would beg you to trust me until I provide reliable references (I’ll bring English ones mostly so you can easily agree on the issues).--Getoar (talk) 08:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the best thing to do, for now, would be to work on the History of Kosovo and History of modern Kosovo articles first, adding sources, and then fix up this section later. BalkanFever 08:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And in English its Kosovo. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 10:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not any more. It is now Kosova according to their government, like it or not.

Since when have governments decided on the spelling of English language? --88.114.235.225 (talk) 18:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The League was supported by the Ottoman Sultan because of its Pan-Islamic ideology and political aspirations of a unified Albanian people under the Ottoman umbrella. The movement gradually became anti-Christian and spread great anxiety among Christian Albanians and especially among Christian Serbs."? I believe the League was initially pan-Islamic,but religious leaders were not accepted later on.That "religious" character was overcome by the leaders of the League, seeing that Albanians hosted all three major religions."Anti-christian" is harsh at least,not to say wrong!The character of the League was purely nationalistic,but not religious fanatism.I suggest that this statement is changed.Amenifus (talk) 12:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this article should be split, into Kosovo and Republic of Kosovo. The Republic of Kosovo is not, in spite of enthusiastic wikinationalists and crystballing arguments, not widely internationally recognized. There needs to be one article on Kosovo, its history, geography, demographics, etc., covering a larger historical span and one of the Republic. If some material is covered in both, that is not a major problem. Compare Western Sahara and Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. Also, note that China doesn't redirect to People's Republic of China, in spite that PRC controls the major part of Chinese territory and is overwhelmingly recognised as the government of China. --Soman (talk) 12:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an argument. Therefore, its conclusion cannot be accepted. You could never talk about, say, China, and the Republic of China, because its a contradictory suggestion. So, I don't think it's a good idea to have two different articles. That would double Wikipedia's efforts to maintain neutrality and unbiasedness. --Arber (talk) 13:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I'm not following your argument. China and Republic of China are two separate articles. --Soman (talk) 13:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those are contextually different than an would-be Kosovo/Republic of Kosovo split! --Arber (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, slightly. But the case remains, that wikipedia cannot only take into account de facto control. In order for the article namespace Kosovo to be identical with the Republic of Kosovo, it is needed that their is some assertion of international recognition (and not just expected recognitions). There are no definate limits here, it is of course a bit arbitrary, but I'd say that if there is an overwhelming international recognition and/or UN membership, then it would make sense to have Republic of Kosovo redirect to Kosovo. In the meanwhile, we should make a POV remark of negating Serbian claims to the area, there is still a Serbian administrative region, de jure, named Kosovo-Metohija. My suggestion would be to have a temporary solution similar to that of China, namely stating links to Republic of Kosovo and Kosovo-Metohija in the lead, and letting the article Kosovo deal with history, culture, geography etc.. --Soman (talk) 14:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Second that. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 00:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the discussion at Talk:Priština. I have opened a survey to move that page to Pristina (with no H or diacritic) as this is the most common ENGLISH spelling and this is the ENGLISH wikipedia. Please see the discussion on that page and familiarise yourself with the wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Naming_conventions (use_English). Discuss and vote at the Pristina talk page. This page will need to follow the outcome of that discussion. Abc30 (talk) 13:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The official and primary language of the Republic of Kosovo is Albanian. Therefore, the name of the Capital City of Kosovo would be Prishtina, not Pristina. It's like saying Nueva York instead of New York just because there are many Hispanics living in NY... --Arber (talk) 13:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are right but please understand that this is the english wikipedia , look at belgrade it isnt named beograd even though serbian is the primary language there--Cradel 13:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is really quite simple. Wikipedia:Naming conventions policy says Name your pages in English. We don't call Germany 'Deutschland'. We don't call Belgrade 'Beograd'. We only use native spellings if they have entered common usage such that they have replaced the English spelling, as in the case of Cote d'Ivoire. Abc30 (talk) 13:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, but you do call Tirana as is, and you do call Ankara as is, and you do call Prishtina as is. The version Pristina is just a Serbian version which has hindered the real name, as it used to be recognized.--Arber (talk) 13:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tirana and Ankara are the names of thse places in ENGLISH. That is why we use those names. They are the English language names for those cities. Pristina is the English name for this city. The BBC, CNN and all other English speaking organisations use PRISTINA. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it is the truth.[5][6] Abc30 (talk) 13:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, the title of the article on New York City in the Spanish Wikipedia is indeed Nueva York. Article titles use the most common version of place names in the particular language of the host Wikipedia. Powers ^T 13:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly! The reason we have many different language versions of Wikipedia is so that each one uses its own language. This one should use ENGLISH. Abc30 (talk) 13:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not me, but it's the fact. Take a look at this page: University of Prishtina. At the first paragraph, it shows the Albanian name of the university, the Serbian name, and the Latin name, which is: "Universitas Studiorum Prishtiniensis". Even in the Latin language it is written with the Albanian letter "sh", and not with "s"! Consider this, for one.--Arber (talk) 13:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the English wikipedia, not the Latin one. Abc30 (talk) 13:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're missing the point. Since there is no official usage yet, one should use the original name, which is Prishtina. In addition, I used the Latin Name to show that even an old language such as Latin recognizes the name as Prishtina. Please, do not commit logical fallacies, such as the one you just did.

There should be a section of the article addressing the history and state of religion in Kosovo. Probably best in the culture section.--Ason Abdullah (talk) 13:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please argue the removal of clarification note that the republic is only independent de-facto. For example, in Transnistria article it is said that the republic is de-facto (but nopt de-jure) independent.--Certh (talk) 13:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that Kosovo will soon be a partially recognized country in South Eastern Europe. We could link the "partially recognized" words with the Kosovo independence process and recognition article to allow people the option to see who recognizes it and who doesn't. As far as the republic part goes, there should not be any doubts about that by now. It is a republic, it has declared itself a republic, it will be recognized by many as a republic, and it will be ruled as a republic. That is enough to make it de-jure. Being a UN member is not a "de-jure" pre-requisite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.226.128.186 (talk) 14:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo is not anymore a self-declared de-facto independant republic since many countries recognize it. Stasm 20:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagegd this for speedy deletion but thought I would quickly come here and check if this article should have been left as it was. It assert(ed) that Kosovo was a state of the United nations until 2008, giving it the UN flag, etc, which si why I requested speedy delte for patent nonsense. Just wanted to check I wasn't having work deleted that was sanctioned as a main article split. - Fritzpoll (talk) 13:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It does seem like non-sense. To assert that Kosovo formed a different state between the Kosovo War and yesterday certainly seems bizarre, and there's no use for such an article. There should just be one article for Kosovo and here the earlier history of the territory is amply described. TSO1D (talk) 14:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Was UNMIK terminated after declaration of independence?--Certh (talk) 14:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I've moved to PROD this now. - Fritzpoll (talk) 14:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the opinion above that the articles for Kosovo and Republic of Kosovo should be split.

I believe there is one point totally ignored in this discussion. As it was mentioned, one of the criteria of statehood is "full control of the claimed territory". But Republic of Kosovo doesn't have it. I am not speaking about the fact that Kosovo is rather being controlled than controlling anything (the only force that controls the whole territory of Kosovo is KFOR and therefore it's still de facto an international protectorate). I'm pointing out at the fact that the Serbian exclaves haven't recognized the authority of the Prishtina and still consider themselves subjects of Belgrade. The Prishtina government has partial control of the territory only, and this fact should be noted in the article. While the minor exclaves seem to be overrun by Prishtina in near future, it's very unlikely that Belgrade will agree to let go the Serbian-populated north without a fight.

Hence, we have here a classical case of a territory split into "legally incompatible" divisions (like in Koreas, former Germanys, Chinas etc.). Today we have three political entities that coexist on the territory of Kosovo: the Serbian Kraj, the independent republic, and the international protectorate. Every one of them should have a separate article — other than Kosovo.

• Samoa ≠ neither Independent State of Samoa nor American Samoa.
• Korea ≠ neither Republic of Korea nor DPRK.
• China ≠ neither Republic of China nor People's Republic of China.
• Germany ≠ neither FRG nor GDR (before 1990).

To associate the article for all Kosovo with state symbols of Albanian Kosova and its government wouldn't be just violation of the neutral POV principle, it would be contradiction to the truth as well. Hellerick (talk) 14:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flawlessly argued. Might I also add Macedonia ≠ FYROM. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 14:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that there is already a separate article on the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo. --Soman (talk) 15:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Probably when the heat dies out a little, people will recognize that this is what must be done here, too. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 21:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The map on this article has already been updated to show an independent kosovo but what about the maps on other countries ? Should they be changed too or wait until someone recognizes it and then change the maps only on those countries that recognize it  ? --Cradel 15:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah personally I think it's probably a good idea to wait and see what level of international recognition it gets before changing all the other maps of Europe. Abc30 (talk) 15:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please, try to keep these discussions at the appropriate subpage, Talk:International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence. Doing so will help centralize discussions and reduce excessive posting in this talk page, thus simplifying work in the main article. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 16:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Afghanistan []
• Albania []
• Australia []
• France []
• USA []

This was what I've heard today--Ezzex (talk) 15:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any sources? --Cradel 15:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For Afgahnistan: Vijesti.hr Template:Hr icon Vseferović (talk) 16:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In following weeks there will be many stories to come but till is fully recognized by United Nations this article should be locked from editing or create new article of self declared independence. Is there separate article for Turkish part of Cyprus? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.81.105 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is: Northern Cyprus. - Ev (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of unrecognized states do have Wiki articles. 128.227.97.59 (talk) 17:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

no sources?

[7] --Agüeybaná 20:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Albania recognised Independece of Kosovo on 21 October 1991 based on a resolution of the Albanian Parliament. Today (19 February 2008) Albania established diplomatic Relations with The Republic of Kosovo at ambasador level. source: Top-Channel Mr. Islam Lauka is the new ambassador of Albania in Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piasoft (talk • contribs) 17:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Germany, France, Italy and UK all recognizing. Spain not. "Germany said 17 of the European Union's 27 members had decided on quick recognition" vhttp://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSHAM53437920080218 --AlexSuricata (talk) 16:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please, try to keep these discussions at the appropriate subpage, Talk:International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence. Doing so will help centralize discussions and reduce excessive posting in this talk page, thus simplifying work in the main article. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 16:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ireland/Éire will recognize an independent Kosovo. [8] --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  20:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Belgium, Luxembourg, Slovenia, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark, Finland, Bulgaria, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Austria, Hungary joined or were joining the early recognizers."
"The Czech Republic, Netherlands, Portugal, Greece and Slovakia were still making up their minds." [9]
"Cyprus, Greece, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Romania have indicated they too are not keen to recognise Kosovo."[10]--AlexSuricata (talk) 23:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the "Republic of Kosovo infobox in the introduction, there is a section termed "independence", consisting of two items: declared, bearing the date of 17 February, 2008; and recognized, bearing the date of 18 February, 2008.

However, in other countries' similar infoboxes the item recognized is only used to reflect the date when seccession was recognized by the State from which the country in question declared independence, and the date provided next to it is always the date of such recognition by the State suffering the loss of dominion over the territory.

Thus, since Serbia has not recognized Kosovo's declaration of independence (perhaps some day it will, just as was the case when Britain recognized America's independence; when Portugal recognized Brazil's separation, etc), the recognized item should be excluded for the time being. --Antonio Basto (talk) 15:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• You have to add Costa Rica As well recognized today. Source: [top-channel]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/18/kosovo.independence/index.html?iref=newssearch 68.45.106.216 (talk) 16:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gorg Bush votes for many things.

Umm... why is the old article here, and not the one after declared independence? Seems Serbian nationalists are reverting the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.18.36 (talk) 16:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My original comment was edited. This is the article confirming that the US has recognized Kosovo.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/18/kosovo.independence/index.html 68.45.106.216 (talk) 18:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

France has recognized independence: Reuterus Template:En icon Vseferović (talk) 17:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Germany, Italy, France, Britain, America all recognise the Republic of Kosovo: BBC.

[11]

David (talk) 17:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that sadly enough, the sentence is a self-declared independent state" in the leading section should be changed in light of the fact that it's no longer just Kosovo claiming independence but its new status is being recognized by other states as well. Dapiks (talk) 17:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

America is a continent, do you mean the United States of America?

Actually Mr. Pedantic, there is no continent America, there's a North America and a South America. Neuronecro (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why are there two continents named after that Vespucci guy? Why not call North America Turtle Island and South America something else? 204.52.215.107 (talk) 23:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, why not just call the New World America, and then call North America Turtle Island and South America "Cordillera and Amazonia", or some such name. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 23:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

nah, that whole name scheme is about as silly as West Gondwanaland and East Gondwanaland to refer to parts of "Gondwanaland". 204.52.215.107 (talk) 23:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone should add some perspective on what happened in 1990 [12]. --NN —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neuronecro (talk • contribs) 18:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Many issues have been brought up in these discussions: when is a country a country? What is the legitimacy of unilateral independence? What should wikipedia do, and how is this consistent with other nations that have become independent in recent years?

I. When is a country a country:

As many people have pointed out, The Montevideo Convention defines a "state," but one of the key charactereistics of a state as defined is its ability to engage in diplomatic relations. States normally fall into two categories: those recognized by most other recognized states, those recognized by only one or a few states (or only by unrecognized states). For practical purposes, many people consider UN recognition the litmus test of legitimate sovereignty, but as some have already pointed out, it is not legally necessary. Simply being recognized at all by somebody is also not enough, as in the case of Northern Cyprus or Taiwan. Conversely, simply being opposed by one or more countries is not enough to negate sovereignty, no matter how powerful those in opposition, otherwise, long-established states could esily lose legitimacy on the political whim of a few enemies.

Conclusions:

1. The legal definition of a state is based on certain rational guidelines, but, the final legal status of a state is subjective, as there exists no process in international law to pass final and unequivocal judgment, or to officially confer de jure status. No amount of legal argument changes the basic existence of that subjectivity, which is dependant on the opinions international community. 2. It is valid to debate whether any self-declared state, and also the international community, are right or wrong, whether they have legal and/or moral precedent, but the conclusions of such arguments should not be the technical determiners of de jure sovereignty. 3. Majority support is crucial, but absolute consensus is not.

II. What is the legitimacy of a unilateral declaration of independence?

Some people have argued that there is the danger of a "Kosovo Precedent." Their position is that any unilateral declaration is illegal, regardless of the circumstances, and if the international community recognizes one, then it sets a precedent for any other breakaway movement, such as Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Other people have pointed out that the United states unilaterally declared independence, and many, many other countries followed its example. But the United States Declaration of Independence clearly defines the circumstances that legitimize secession:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

This historic document, which sets the precedent for legal secession, could not be more clear. It establishes that:

• People do have the right to unilaterally dissolve, revolt against, or declare independence from, an abusive government.
• People, however, do not have the right to declare independence casually, and should only do so when a long train of abuses makes it absolutely necessary.
• People are morally obligated to justify their independence to the nations of the earth.

Conclusions:

1. International laws, and indeed the very sovereignty of nations, ultimately derives from the people who inhabit those nations, as reflected in the US Declaration of Independence, the French Declaration on the Rights of Man, and the United Nations Charter, as well as many subsequent national and international declarations. 2. The legality of a Kosovo declaration of independence resides in the strength of its moral grounds and argument for independence, and on international recognition of that argument as valid. 3. Kosovo's declaration, and international recognition, by itself, does not set a "Kosovo precedent," because the precedent of unilateral secession is already well-established. The real issue is the subsequent international recognition and opinion on the causes for secession. 4. When international opinion differs, majority rule should apply, under the United Nations principle of equal sovereignty.

III. My personal opinion on the status of Kosovo:

Serbia originally held full legal and moral sovereignty over Kosovo, but defaulted on that sovereignty when it engaged in ethnic cleansing. When that happened, Kosovo obtained the right to secede. This does not establish a "Kosovo Precedent," it actually follows the existing precedent that's been followed and recognized dozens of times around the world. Kosovo has the right to unilaterally declare independence not because the Kosovars randomly feel like it, but because their original government, the Serbian government, did not protect their rights as Serbians, or their basic human dignity; their government tried to destroy them, and has not made a significant effort to pay reparation or to reconcile with them. Because the Serbian government derives its right to exsist from the people it rules, it has abdicated its sovereignty over the territory and over the people it abused, which is now and therefore the sovereign nation of Kosovo.

Miloshevic was found unguilty of any ethnic clensing in Kosovo by the trial. Besides that, now Serbia is governed by completely different people, e.g. political opponents of Miloshevic.--Certh (talk) 21:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IV. Recommendation for Article Treatment:

When either A. 50+1% of the sovereign states of the world extend formal diplomatic recognition to Kosovo, or B. the United Nations extends diplomatic recognition, then the Wikipedia article should treat Kosovo as any other established country, and not as simple a "de facto" sovereign country. The controversy over persistent claims against Kosovo's independence should, at that point, be resigned to a separate section.

--Supersexyspacemonkey (talk) 20:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, though I would like to make it clear to everyone reading this that it is all just your own personal opinion and isn't any kind of official wikipedia policy. Abc30 (talk) 20:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, and it's also worth pointing out that the definition of a "country" is hazy anyway. England, Scotland and Wales are commonly referred to as countries (which of course they once were) despite not having any international diplomatic recognition of any sort. What we can say is that Kosovo is a self-governing state which has declared itself independent. It's in broadly the same category as Northern Cyprus, Transnistria or Abkhazia; those articles provide some useful pointers for how we should describe Kosovo's current status. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What does the official wikipedia policy in this matter? If there is none, maybe one should be introduced? I guess some people won't recognize Kosovo at any point in time, however, if the majority of the world's reconized countries recognize Kosovo, I really can't see why Kosovo shouldn't be treated as a sovereign state by Wikipedia. Of course, the fact that a couple of countries hasn't recognized Kosovo should be included. 83.227.38.72 (talk) 21:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you also agree that, because of same reasons, North Kosovo has the right to secede from the remainder and remain in Serbia? Also, no matter because in some historical sentences unilateral secession might seem justified and legal, it is a precedent according to Precedent Law. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point, but to me that feels like we're talking more about 'Where to draw the border' rather than 'Should Kosovo be treated as a state, if the majority of countries in the world recognize it' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.181.214.178 (talk) 09:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Original research. Wikipedia should say exactly what the sources say. Nothing more, nothing less. The American Declaration of Independence is not a source on the Kosovar Declaration of Independence. - Revolving Bugbear 21:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although it states so in the main article that Kosovo had been recognised by France, USA, Germany etc. that is simply not true. German Foreign Ministry just ANNOUNCED this step for Wednesday 20th of February AFTER a vote in the parliament "Bundestag". Most other European countries also just ANNOUNCED their willingness to consider such a step. That said, it should be added that Afghanistan was the first state worldwide to accept an independent Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.114.86.209 (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello USA is just a country! Why you refer it alone and you dont refer to all the countries that recognise the republic of kosovo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feta (talk • contribs) 21:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because the USA is one of the most powerful states in the world. David (talk) 23:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And what, might makes right or something? --Michalis Famelis (talk) 00:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in this case, yes. It's because of the United States that Kosovo even got to this point.UberCryxic (talk) 00:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, that's exactly what the Serbian PM said. At any rate, the US point of view is certainly as respectable as any other, it is however not any more "right" than the Russian or Chinese ones, as far as NPOV is concerned. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 01:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't forget to write that Kosovo is a landlocked country, dunno why it isn't there yet. :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.175.213 (talk) 19:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC) Is it a country? That's POV.--201.17.90.204 (talk) 01:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the info box, it shows the date of Kosovo's "recognition." Is that wholly appropriate? How can you have one date for recognition when not everyone has recognized it? I looked at a few other country pages and have not seen anything similar to this. Or is this a special case? --Jesuislafete (talk) 21:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could I ask some of you as experts in this area to comment on this splinter article that was created today. The Afd listing can be found at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kosovo (UNMIK). Many thanks - Fritzpoll (talk) 23:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article though trying to make NPOV stance got some Pro-Kosovan attitude. First of all, I object to use of the map showing Kosovo as just another sovereign country in Europe as Germany or France. I think that Wikipedia should be consistent in its portrayal of various self-declared republics such as Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia, Kosovo etc. The map on Northern Cyprus entry shows it next to Greek Cyprus, the map on Abkhazia entry shows it within Georgia etc. The map should show Kosovo's location within Serbia as it is yet considered part of Serbia by majority of international community. 2. Kosovo is not sovereign country. It is administered by the UNMIK. Wikipedia should support NPOV attitude, therefore it has to support the status quo. Wikipedia articles should not getting quickly edited in favour of Recentism but properly considered and debated. It does not matter that the US or Afghanistan recognized Kosovo because if sovereignty is not generally recognized by international community (including the UN) it makes no difference if independence was recognized by Turkey (as it is for Northern Cyprus) or by the US (as it is here). I propose to debate it here before I'm going to edit the article in order to make it more NPOV.Merrybrit (talk) 23:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo is considered a sovereign country by the United States and some other countries. That viewpoint should also be included. Likewise, viewpoints of Pluto as a planet and as a dwarf planet should also be included in any discussion of planethood with respect to the solar system and of Pluto itself. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 00:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That point of view should of course be included and I also disagree with Merrybrit's idea of Wikipedia "supporting" this or that POV. However, I agree completely with Merrybrit's primary objection, that is, the map. Until such time when Kosovar independence is uncontroversial, the map should stick to the standards of articles about other similarly controversial de facto entities such as those mentioned above. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 00:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The history section, and in particular the section on antiquity and the middle ages, reads like a nationalist rant written by an amateur historian. It is filled with romantic, unsourced statements about antiquity is very anti-Serbian. I changed it, but it was reverted almost instantly. It is very POV and biased and something needs to be done about this. --Tsourkpk (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the history part is not well written. There are not enough references. You can't say that Milosevic was covering his back! What kind of neutrality is this?

I think the whole nation definition debate should move to more official grounds, how about setting up a debate for this somewhere? And if there is already a discussion on this somewhere like the Community well or whatever how about a link? Right now the discussion is spread over a number of pages and hard to follow. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 01:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where else is discussion occurring on the matter? I would be willing to set up Talk:Kosovo/Statehood Definition or even Talk:Kovoso/Definition in the same manner that discussion on waterboarding led to Talk:Waterboarding/Definition if anyone is interested. I think a discussion in that form might work best, but if some centralized discussion is going on elsewhere that works for me as well. SorryGuy  Talk  02:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, most of this subject has been beaten to death repeatedly over the years on the various talk pages belonging to List of countries and related articles. The Tom (talk) 02:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Was a consensus ever reached? :) +Hexagon1 ^(t) 07:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What consensus are you talking about !!! It self-declared inependence. And it is being recognised as such from many countries as times leaves behind.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piasoft (talk • contribs) 17:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could people please start remembering that Wikipedia is not a place for original research. It is pointless to set up a discussion on whether or not Kosovo should be considered a nation or not, because that would be original research. All we have to do is have this article, and allow it to present the various viewpoints on Kosovo. Quite simple really, if only people would stop making edits to article they have deeply vested interests in (which is, of course, difficult, I realise). Lilac Soul ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 17:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The views on whether Dardania is an Illyrian name or not are mixed. Check the respective page, BEFORE the 2008 Kosovo UDI. Dardani were Thraco-Illyrian. Citing respective article: "The element Dardan appears to be found in the toponymy of both the Illyrians (Dardi, Dardani) and the Thracians (Dardanos)." and "The distribution of ancient names found inscribed in Dardania are one of the main evidences that support the idea that the Dardani were Thracians commingled with Illyrians. Thracian names are found mostly in eastern Dardania, from Scupi to Naissus and Remesiana, although some Illyrian names occur. Illyrian names are dominant in the western areas, where Thracian names are not found".

Moreover, User:Getoar changed the term "region" into "country". And, Gjon Buzuku "was born in the village of Ljare (Kraja) in Bar, Montenegro close to Northern Albania (Kraje is located on the shores of Lake Scutari)." (from respective article), not "is believed to have been born in Kosovo", as User:Getoar's chenge says on Kosovo. AND, about Pjetër Bogdani: "He contributed a force of 6,000 Albanian soldiers to the Austrian army which had arrived in Priština and accompanied it to capture Prizren." (respective article) Furthermore, User:Getoar's sources seem to be Albanian POV and the user has been "honoured" with The Barnstar of National Merit "For the awesome work on Kosovo,and the Albanian related articles".

Would you assume good faith in such changes after they were repeated over and over again?

Why is an Albanian POV being pushed from people who consider Dardania to be synonymous of Kosovo and Illyrians synonymous of Albanians?

You can check the respective article on Illyrians to see whether there is a consensus or not on what Illyrians were. Cause, last time I checked there wasn't.

Is Kosovo part of Albania?

Who is gonna clean-up the article NOW, after like 10 edits??? Heracletus (talk) 02:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to add that: "The ethnogenesis of the Illyrians remains a problem for modern prehistorians." from the Illyrians article. But, no, go change everything to read different for all I care. Heracletus (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He's added all kind of POV crap, never mind the Dardanian stuff. The history section is full of romantic POV statements about the "hard working generous Dardanians" and the "Serbian peril". It's unbelievable. --Tsourkpk (talk) 06:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In most situations, Wikipedia articles concerning the various countries/nations/etc. in the world cover both the "country" (ie, the dirt and trees and rocks and cows and spot-where-medieval-warrior-X-was-struck-down) and the "state" (ie, the generally more modern organization with, as they say in school, a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.) Because 99.9% of the time country and state fade blurrily into one another, this is more than acceptable, (and indeed leads to the colloquial use of the terms as synonymous in English and most languages).

For instance, the article on France begins "France, officially the French Republic...." To split hairs, the country is "France" and the state is "the French Republic", but the two are effectively synonymous so nobody has any problem with that. In a few weird cases, the patch of ground (ie Taiwan) and the state that controls it (ie, the Republic of China) do sit in different articles.

The problem is that this article is about a patch of ground without an unambiguous connection to a particular state apparatus. To those who recognize the recently-declared republic, Kosovo is the Republic of Kosovo. To those who reject it, Kosovo is the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.

So where most other articles have only got two creatures, we've basically got three, represented in the lede of the article by three phrases in bold text. The NPOV way of handling this, as I see it anyway, is to open by defining "Kosovo" in purely geohistorical terms, defining each of the Republic and Autonomous Province in purely political terms, and make clear to the reader that there is no universally-understood way of mixing and matching them. There's absolutely no disputing that Kosovo exists, is commonly called Kosovo in English, covers a certain patch of ground in Europe, has certain people living in it, and has had certain things happen in it over the past thousands of years. That point should be made immediately in the article, and is with the statement that "Kosovo is a region in the Balkans etc. etc."

But we cannot adopt the position that whatever the "Republic of Kosovo" is (depending on your perspective, a state, a self-declared republic, an neo-Wahabbi emirate, a source of peace and justice, or a source of all evil in the world) is what "Kosovo" is. Conversely, we can't say that because the "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija" is a province, "Kosovo" is a "province". So the article can't start with "Kosovo is a self-declared republic" or "Kosovo is a Serbian province."

"Country" has to be out as an option because in the eyes of many readers it is synonymous with "state." I had previously considered "territory" appropriate, but I was convinced that that connotes non-sovereignty, so "region" it is, barring someone coming up with something mutually acceptable to everyone. (How about "Kosovo is roughly 11,000 square kilometers somewhere in the general vicinity of Skopje that far too many people have died fighting over". :) )

Am I making my rationale clear? The Tom (talk) 02:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you meant Pristina/Prishtina/Priština. Skopje is in Macedonia/[that country north of Greece]. —Kurykh 02:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I meant Skopje, in the country whose name we dare not speak. That other place is the town with the politicized caron whose name we dare not speak ;). The Tom (talk) 03:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about "disputed territory"? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 02:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Israel isnt't recognised by many countries either, that doesn't prevent it from being shown as an independent country on wikipedia. - PietervHuis (talk) 02:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dont say anything against Israel. You are not allowed. Israel is the best country on the planet, and the Jewishes are the best nation on the galaxy. And the have always right. And they are so good people, they have never harmed anyone and they are so willing to help anyone that needs a second hand. You should respect them.--Feta (talk) 13:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Israel has a 159-to-34 recognition, plus UN membership. When Kosovo gets that, I think you'll have a better case. The Tom (talk) 02:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My point exactly. But, why not drop Israel out of Wikipedia, too? There are people out there, who think that Israel doesn't exist. So, there must be sources. So, we can PROVE that Israel doesn't exist, as people here prove that Dardania was Illyrian, that Illyrians were only Albanians, that Kosovo not only is a country, but also that it has a very very long history of being an Albanian one.

-POV?? -No, I got sources. Heracletus (talk) 02:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're discussing Kosovo, you're discussing Illyria. The Illyrian thing is in some other thread, not here. —Kurykh 02:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear on this whole Israel digression, I don't think we're well served by trying to find some lede now that will have to last into the indefinite future, or lay down some sort of regulations for how things get handled with every ensuing int'l recognition. If Kosovo hits Israel-level recognition, I'm sure the issue will be reopened. If the US changes its mind and proclaims the corpse of Slobodan Milosevic dictator for life, we can reopen it, too. The Tom (talk) 03:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This argument has been made at least two times further up above (this page urgently needs to be archived). IMHO, the best solution is to split the article into Kosovo (ie the place) and Republic of Kosovo/Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija/etc (ie all the political entities in Kosovo, the place). --Michalis Famelis (talk) 03:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a fair argument, but ultimately a foolish one. The RoC/Taiwan get separate articles in part because they aren't/weren't geographical coterminal, and because it's common for islands to get their own articles. But Kosovo/RoK/APKiM all sit on the exact same patch of earth, defined purely by political borders. Also, it's almost impossible to separate the history and geography that weaves together all three. We'd probably wind up with an Albanian-POV RoK article, a Serbian-POV APKiM article, and a stripped down Kosovo article with nothing but people arguing over pears. The Tom (talk) 03:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You needn't focus on China so much. You mentioned the Country-That-Must-Not-Be-Named above, so the Macedonia/Republic of Macedonia/Macedonia (Greece) trichotomy comes to my mind as a parallel. Additionally it is not quite that accurate to say that RoK and Kosovo coinside, since the Serbian-held northern territories are de facto outside RoK (mirroring the way RoK is de facto outside Serbia). Also, I know you didn't mean to be offensive but do avoid words like "foolish", as this talk page can easily explode. (It's the Balkans, I know... :-) ) --Michalis Famelis (talk) 03:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, my apologies. The Tom (talk) 03:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(moved up from below) The main problem, as I noted above, has been editors insisting that the lead has to say "Kosovo is a self-declared republic" which simply cannot be done while entertaining a NPOV. Saying "The Republic of Kosovo is a self-declared republic" is absolutely fine. Saying "Kosovo" full-stop is is obviously problematic. The Tom (talk) 03:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is why the article has to be split between Kosovo and the Republic of Kosovo. But until that happens we will treat Kosovo as a self-declared republic in this article. As it is your version remains inconsistent, as it declares Kosovo a disputed region while displaying a whole infobox there which says Republic of Kosovo with flags and all. ☆ CieloEstrellado 03:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The infobox merely summarizes attributes that are associated with the Republic of Kosovo (note large writing across its top) and makes no claim to have them apply to the entire patch of ground. As for a split, as I was saying above, I'd like to think we could work around this well enough that this wouldn't be necessary, but if it "has" to be done, I imagine there ought to be a broader consensus. Certainly all this talk of how until then "we will treat Kosovo as a self-declared republic in this article" strikes me as a highly inappropriate position to take unilaterally. The Tom (talk) 03:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A RoK country infobox certainly gives an endorsement to RoK. Saying otherwise is being naïve. And if we were to also place an infobox for APoKaM, should it go before or after the RoK infobox? Or side by side while occupying the whole page's width? It's not practical. The infobox in your version should be strictly about the characteristics of the region, its people, but not its government. ☆ CieloEstrellado 04:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

_(Un-indent) So, how about a formal split proposal? --Michalis Famelis (talk) 04:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm all for it. ☆ CieloEstrellado 06:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting is inconsistent with how we treat other separatist territories. The separatist republic of Northern Cyprus doesn't physically include the entire north of Cyprus. The separatist republic of Abkhazia doesn't physically include the whole of Abkhazia. The separatist republic of South Ossetia doesn't physically include the whole of South Ossetia. And so on. Of course, the important point here is that the separatist republics in question, like the Republic of Kosovo, control the vast majority of the claimed territory; therefore the name of the territory is conventionally used as the short form for the name of the republic (like France = Republic of France). Additionally in Kosovo's case, Serb-populated North Kosovo (which constitutes only 10% of the territory) is still legally constituted under both Kosovo and Serbian law as part of Kosovo and the Pristina government is still the only legally-recognised governing authority in the region; Serbia has talked about setting up a separate Serb-run legislature in the north but hasn't done so yet. There's no need to split the article, and I would consider it a POV fork if someone did do this; it would be an instant candidate for deletion. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

South Africa also doesn't physically include all of south Africa, which is why we have a separate article called southern Africa. Likewise, we often refer to the United States of America as America, and the European Union as Europe, yet they're not really the same, and we have different articles in those cases. And then of course there's Western Sahara/Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Taiwan/Republic of China, two examples to counter your theory that Wikipedia treats all separatist territories the same. ☆ CieloEstrellado 09:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Cyprus doesn't claim to be Cyprus and Abkhazia doesn't claim to be Georgia. Therefore there is no ambiguosity here and we can have the article for Georgia to be identical with the one for Republic of Georgia.

But we have two political entities claiming to be Kosovo. Therefore we should have two articles for every one and one neutral article for "geographical" Kosovo.Hellerick (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have personally come to the conclusion that we just name it a country because of how it operates from now on, however include the fact that it is disputed by Serbia. The fact that it's "self-proclaimed" is an automatic given deriving from the declaration of independence which declares Kosovo an independent country. The "partially recognized" fragment which I proposed is explained later in the article, but I agree that it is a secondary matter so it shouldn't appear on the opening sentence either. I propose 3 things:

I. Paragraph 1 should contain:

A. Kosovo be called a landlocked country disputed by Serbia, on the basis of: 1) it's geographical position 2) the term the entity has declared itself (independent country) and how it's parliament operates from now on in both internal and external matters (independent country) 3) the Serbian dispute fragment should be enough to re-direct users into learning more about it
B. The neighboring countries that border it are mentioned.

II. Paragraph 2 should contain:

A. Partial recognition as an independent country explanation.
B. UNMIK status and EULEX prospective.

III. Paragraph 3 should contain:

A. Serbia's dispute on the matter and what it considers Kosovo to be.
B. Explanation on other countries that do not recognize Kosovo.

How about this order of business? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Exo (talk • contribs) 10:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The veto power is important because a) Serbs and supporters are using the Russian and Chinese position as evidence against recognizing Kosovo, while b) the other three veto-wielders are actually in favor of recognition; also, c) the veto is used exclusively by powerful, nuclear-armed countries that won the Second World War. Their voice carries influence. — Rickyrab | Talk 03:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. But it is a complex issue that requires a few lines of explanation. That sort of content does not belong in the lead. The Tom (talk) 03:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So let's put it further down and flesh it out a little. — Rickyrab | Talk 03:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a good idea. Frankly, there's all this back and forth in the lead, but the section on the actual independence further down the is pretty hurting and has been completely neglected. The Tom (talk) 03:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't revert the whole intro just because of one problematic praragraph that was added later. I've deleted the problematic paragraph and restored the intro. ☆ CieloEstrellado 03:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That certainly hasn't been the main problem. The main problem, as I noted above, has been editors insisting that the lead has to say "Kosovo is a self-declared republic" which simply cannot be done while entertaining a NPOV. The Tom (talk) 03:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

conversation moved above

The best proposal out there so far is PARTIALLY RECOGNIZED COUNTRY.

This takes in consideration the fact that some countries do recognize Kosovo as a country, while it also underlines the fact that it is partially recognized as such. It is the best wording that exists for this scenario and it should be the default until further events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Exo (talk • contribs) 04:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FOR GOD'S SAKE, EDITORS PLEASE DECIDE ON SOMETHING SEMI NEUTRAL, AND LOCK THIS DAMN ARTICLE FOREVER. IT KEEPS CHANGING EVERY 2 SECONDS, MAKING IT LOOK NOT LIKE A RELIABLE ENCYCLOPEDIA, BUT LIKE A CHILDREN'S TUG-OF-WAR GAME. IT IS RIDICULOUS BEHAVIOR. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT SERBS AND ALBANIANS CANNOT AGREE ON ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. SO PLEASE, MAKE A NEUTRAL SOUNDING OPENING PHRASE LIKE THE ONE PROPOSED ABOVE, AND LOCK THE DAMN ARTICLE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.92.25 (talk) 05:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not use ALL CAPS on an already contentious article. It does not help matters. —Kurykh 05:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A self-declaration and partial recognition are enough to qualify as a country. In addition, Kosovo will operate as a country within itself as well as towards countries who do recognize it. I urge the editors to agree on the country terminology for 3 simple reasons: A) It is self-declared B) It is recognized as such by many other countries C) It will operate as a country. There is only 2 counter-arguments out there which say: You need UN membership or full international recognition to be a country, both of which are not the standard. There are more arguments than counter-arguments favoring the term country.

But, I believe it is necessary to specify it's current standing as a country, and I urge you to support these 2 key descriptions sorrounding the word country: A) SELF-PROCLAIMED B) PARTIALLY RECOGNIZED

This way the readers will be able to know what it calls itself and what others call it. The rest of the article can explain the various disputes on the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Exo (talk • contribs) 08:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC) So is this the way this encyclopedia acts? You people simply don't care about Serbia and you're all out for Kosovo? (Don't say anything against that I've watched the reactions of today's superpowers and they're outrageous). For god's sake show some kind of respect and be objective. If everyone was to put self-proclaimed countries on Wikipedia then I could proclaim my house as my own independent country and require that there's an article about it. Please get serious! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.160.218 ([[User talk:79.131.160.218|ta —Preceding comment was added at 15:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC) [reply]

I'm new here, so I'm wasn't sure wether to just go ahead and edit the article or to propose the change first. Anyway, the demographics section says

No, the governance of the province has since 1999 has been independent of Serbia and supervised by the UN, soon to be the EU. David (talk) 13:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
"I would love to see ANY evidence that Serbia has been running the show in Kosovo or that they are now." There is none, after losing the 1999 war Serbia had to withdraw it's troops and relinquish any control over Kosovo. Hobartimus (talk) 13:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]