The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.‎

The result was draftify. There is a general sense that the topic may be notable but should be rewritten/salvaged/or split before being mainspaced. Opinions differ on whether TNT and the like appliy here, but most people agree that it should not be in the mainspace as is. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:12, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Berber separatism in North Africa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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The article is complete nonsense masquerading as a real article while having both WP:SYNTH and WP:OR problems. Characterising normal anti-colonial wars/battles, normal political struggles and normal political protests as seperatism is pushing a far-fetched POV. I can't find in any of these sources a clear mention of "Berber separtist/separtism" or "It started to make an ethnonationalist Berber country", etc. Nothing just tribes fighting colonial forces or cultural activists protesting against their countries (for linguistic and cultural rights). The only separtist movement in this article is the National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad who founded a short-lived state from 2012 to 2013. TheseusHeLl (talk) 05:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. TheseusHeLl (talk) 05:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. TheseusHeLl (talk) 05:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Quite a few of the issues appear to be dealt with in Berberism. —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 14:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Morocco-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 14:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Libya-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 14:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete This is a massive content fork presenting 100 years of sporadic Berber rebellions against large numbers of different governments as some sort of grand struggle for Berber independence, clearly original research and synthesis. Zoozaz1 (talk) 01:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep or alternative possibility Split into three articles (while keeping Berber separatism in North Africa as short overview/disambiguation page or merging into Berberism) - though i'm also the author of this page, let's use logic to decide whether this is a "nonsense" or an actual topic, which is differing enough from Berberism to have its own page.

• First of all, Berberism page is about ethnic/sectarian nationalism, this being parallel to Kurdish nationalism, Assyrian nationalism, Sahrawi nationalism. Those three other examples also have related, often prolonged violent conflicts, associated with nationalism. In Kurdish case, there are three notable conflicts - Kurdish separatism in Iran, Kurdish rebellions in Turkey and Iraqi–Kurdish conflict; In Assyrian case, we have Assyrian genocide and Simele massacre; In Sahrawi case, we have a single prolonged conflict - Western Sahara conflict. Using those examples we can see three main arenas for prolonged Berber/Amazign separatist struggles:

- Rif Conflict in French and modern Morocco By Riffian people (from 1920 Rif War up to modern to Hirak Rif Movement);

- Geographically sporadic Tuareg rebellions by nomad/semi-settled Tuareg people communities across most North-Western Africa from 1916;

- Kabylie Conflict in Kabylie, Algeria, initiated in 1963 by Kabyle-dominated Socialist Forces Front and restarted from 1980s by Movement for the Autonomy of Kabylie (the Berber Spring, the Black Spring (Algeria) and minor more recent events);

• Secondly, is there an reliable source for grouping those three military/political struggles into a single topic and is this notable per WP guidelines? The answer here is purely technical: the Economist claims so and we have research on this topic in the academic (see Contested identities: Berbers, ‘Berberism’ and the state in North Africa,North Africa’s ‘Berber question’) and general literature (see The Berber Cultural Movement in the Maghreb: Contemporary Issues in Transnationalism);
• Thirdly, is there a violent and notable Berber separatism movement to execute Berber nationalism? The answer is clearly yes - there are three such nationalist, and often clearly separatist, movements;

Given above explanations, I would suggest creating two new articles Rif Conflict and Kabylie Conflict about specific Berber conflicts (in addition to Tuareg rebellions page, which is to be expanded into full article) in any case, whatever the community consensus on the discussed article in this thread.GreyShark (dibra) 08:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Greyshark09, I'm not opposed to splitting the material, as I think that could solve the issue of presenting it as one long struggle, but a problem is that much (not all) of the material is a content fork from articles that already exist. Zoozaz1 (talk) 13:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Again, you're pushing a "separtist" view of cultural/ethnic nationalism and anti-colonial struggles.

1."First of all, Berberism page is about ethnic/sectarian nationalism, this being parallel to Kurdish nationalism, Assyrian nationalism, Sahrawi nationalism." Well that's your POV. We should never never equate nationalist movements with each other. It's wp:or and nonsense. Berberism =/= Arab nationalism, Assyrian nationalism =/= Slavic nationalism, Kurdish nationalism =/= Assyrian nationalism =/= Sahrawi nationalism =/= Berberism =/= Arab nationalism..... We're not here to make new concepts and synthesize different ideologies in a single one.

"Using those examples we can see three main arenas for prolonged Berber/Amazign separatist struggles:" That's the problem you're using hints of nationalism and some separtist movements as a basis for a wide multi-faceted permanent separtist struggle that started from the times of "Tuareg guerrillas". Any reliable sources where an author is clearly connecting these wide ranged topics as a single struggle?

"Rif Conflict in French and modern Morocco By Riffian people (from 1920 Rif War up to modern to Hirak Rif Movement)" Any sources that connect these different struggles/anti-colonial war in a single separtist movement?

"Geographically sporadic Tuareg rebellions by nomad/semi-settled Tuareg people communities across most North-Western Africa from 1916;" Any sources that connect these different struggles/anti-colonial war in a single separtiist movement? (why not create an article about Tuareg nationalism?)

"Kabylie Conflict in Kabylie, Algeria, initiated in 1963 by Kabyle-dominated Socialist Forces Front and restarted from 1980s by Movement for the Autonomy of Kabylie (the Berber Spring, the Black Spring (Algeria) and minor more recent events);" Any sources that connect these different struggles/anti-colonial war in a single separtist movement? (you can develop the already existing article Kabylism)

2."Secondly, is there an reliable source for grouping those three military/political struggles into a single topic and is this notable per WP guidelines? The answer here is purely technical" It shouldn't be "purely technical". Do you really have a source that connects all of these movements/guerrilas/anti-colonial groups and says that they're all a single "Berber separtist" movement?

see Contested identities: Berbers, ‘Berberism’ and the state in North Africa,North Africa’s ‘Berber question’) Where is "Separtist" or "Separtism" in the work? I can't find a single word about Separtism in the work.

"see The Berber Cultural Movement in the Maghreb: Contemporary Issues in Transnationalism);" Can you point where "Separtism" is mentioned in the chapter?

3."Thirdly, is there a violent and notable Berber separatism movement to execute Berber nationalism? The answer is clearly yes - there are three such nationalist, and often clearly separatist, movements;" That's true but why creating a WP:OR non-WP:STICKTOSOURCE article with copied material instead of expanding the already existing articles (Berberism, Kabylism) -TheseusHeLl (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Confused. I know that the question is not strictly relevant to whether this should be deleted, but I find it difficult to proceed with looking for sources if it isn't answered. Why "in North Africa"? Does Berber separatism (or indeed a significant population of Berbers) exist anywhere else? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually yes, there is a large Berber diaspora community in Europe and there is a mixed Berber-European ethnic heritage in the Canary Islands.GreyShark (dibra) 10:01, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - This is an argumentative essay with OR issues, and needs to be nuked from orbit. There may very well be a notable topic regarding Berber separatism, but in order for a good article on that to be written this needs to be removed. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Move to draft to facilitate breaking out sub-articles from salvageable materials in the article. BD2412 T 00:53, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.