Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17: Difference between revisions

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::::It was around 30km away. I'm not too sure the map would be improved by a scale bar though. For such a small image (when displayed in the window) a scale bar might make it a little cluttered. [[User:Stickee|Stickee]] <small>[[User_talk:Stickee|(talk)]]</small> 09:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
::::It was around 30km away. I'm not too sure the map would be improved by a scale bar though. For such a small image (when displayed in the window) a scale bar might make it a little cluttered. [[User:Stickee|Stickee]] <small>[[User_talk:Stickee|(talk)]]</small> 09:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
:::::I thought a scale bar was MoS for all maps? My Geography teacher at school was fond of reminding us all that a map without a scale is like a lock without a key. I'm sure we can trust readers to expand a small image into a large one, if they want to. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 10:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
:::::I thought a scale bar was MoS for all maps? My Geography teacher at school was fond of reminding us all that a map without a scale is like a lock without a key. I'm sure we can trust readers to expand a small image into a large one, if they want to. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 10:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

== Chernukhino as the second possible missile launch spot ==

Currently, Chernukhino's roadblock and Chernukhino is not mentioned as a possible launch spot, despite that it was mentioned three times in the recordings distributed by the Security Service of Ukraine / SBU. A reference to Chernukhino should be added, and Chernukhino should be marked at the map.

(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-prorussian-separatists-discuss-downing-of-flight-mh17-in-leaked-audio-released-by-ukraine-security-service-9613893.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/18/mh17-recording-russian-colonel-rebels-discuss-disaster-video at 0:30

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975218/Malaysia-Airlines-crash-Intercepted-call-suggests-rebels-to-blame.html at 0:50)

Revision as of 12:03, 14 September 2014

{{Controversial}} should not be used on pages subject to the contentious topic procedure. Please remove this template.

Air traffic control data

There is lots of contradicting information on the recordings of communication between MH17 pilots and the Air traffic controllers:

  • Media reported on 17 July that they were confiscated by the SBU, referring to a "source in Kiev". [1]
  • The Ukrainian ambassador to Malaysia denied on August 8 that the recordings where confiscated [2].
  • DSB announced on August 11 that cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder (the black boxes), air traffic control data, radar and satellite images ... is currently being compared [3].
  • The Russian ambassador to the UN demanded today: They [Ukraine] have to provide records of conversations between their air-traffic controllers [and pilots] ... [4]

Is there any additional information which clarifies this issue? When DSB says "air traffic control data", could this mean anything else than the ATC conversation with pilots? It can't mean radar data, as this is mentioned separately. --PM3 (talk) 19:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian ATC tapes: the turd that will not flush! Strange how the "bad" guys handed over the flight-data and voice recorders that would prove their guilt whereas the "good" guys held back the ATC data that would prove their innocence. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
82-The talk page is not a place to talk about the topic of the article, the Ukrainian-Russian situation generally, or your views on such things. It is a place to discuss how to improve the article. Frankly, there are a lot of possible reasons why the investigators have not made the information on the data recorders public at this time (but this isn't the place to discuss them). You seem to be interested in the topic, I hope you will help us all improve the article further. Best Regards--64.253.142.26 (talk) 00:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2728660/Ukrainian-air-traffic-control-sent-doomed-flight-MH17-conflict-zone-Donetsk-region-says-Russia.html (as an example): "Russian envoy to UN demands Kiev release communications with MH17". The story being suppressed on this article is not that the investigators haven't made things public it is that the authorities in Kiev seized ATC recordings and have still NOT handed this over to the investigators. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 08:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Find a collection of reliable sources that discuss the issue, and we can examine the sources WhisperToMe (talk) 10:25, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As if western mainstream media would cover this: it's not in line with the official (US State Dept) narrative. --87.117.204.133 (talk) 10:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are plenty of sources from other countries, Malaysia included. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/the-moscow-times-churkin-says-ukraine-should-give-investigators-access-to-mh17-audio-files-361175.html
quoting: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/churkin-ukraine-should-give-investigators-access-to-mh17-audio-files/505346.html
http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/563210/20140820/russia-ukraine-air-traffic-control-malaysia-airlines.htm
http://www.nation.lk/edition/breaking-news/item/32450-kiev-must-publish-record-of-mh17-communication-with-traffic-control-russia.html
http://rt.com/news/181300-mh17-flight-record-public/
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/745999 --82.198.102.128 (talk) 15:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! The RT source (re-posted at Sri Lanka) identifies the Russian envoy as Vitaly Churkin. Would it be fair to state his demands within the article? RT and the International Business Times both mentioned this demand, so it may make sense to state this in the article. I am aware that the DSB has not mentioned the ATC data anymore. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I would have thought that a statement by Russia's Permanent Representative to the United Nations since 2006 would be worth mentioning (notable in Wikipedian?) Even the BBC reported off-hand in their timeline that in the immediate hours after the crash the Ukrainian regime intelligence services confiscated the air traffic control records in Kiev. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 16:01, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is the statement relevant? Is Churkin speaking for the DSB now? Geogene (talk) 18:43, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No he's speaking as Russia's Permanent Representative to the United Nations. Is the UN not relevant?

--82.198.102.128 (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ambassador Churkin doesn't speak for the UN, either. But that is beside the point. Do you think that this comment of his is of lasting relevance? And don't you think that if the ATC recordings are not available to the DSB, and are needed in the investigation, that the DSB would comment on this on their own behalf? Geogene (talk) 19:38, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What I think doesn't matter. After all - its not a forum. Surely it's the secondary sources that count:
I think that if the Malaysians are also wanting the tapes, it's a strong indication that this is something that should be addressed in the article. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:55, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Examining the quotes themselves, we have "Attorney-General Tan Sri Abdul Gani Patail said Malaysia would make a formal request for the ATC recordings. However, he did not commit to a definite timeline." and "the Ukrainians have yet to receive any formal request for the tapes [from the DSB official investigation]". So it seems no-one has actually requested them (officially) yet anyway. Stickee (talk) 12:03, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Adding on to what's been said earlier: the DSB has previously said they have the ATC data [5], as has been repeated by other sources (IB Times). In regards to new FAQ not mentioning ATC, the list wasn't exhaustive: "...information from various sources, such as the...". The "such as" means they have other data, which would likely mean the ATC as well. Some more sources saying the DSB has the recordings: RIA/Reuters, China Central, Indo-Asian News/The Hindu NBC News.
Also, just found this interview in which a DSB spokesman says they have ATC information: "This team has collected a lot of information ... For example ... radar information from air traffic controllers" RT. Stickee (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
None of these sources say where the radar information from air traffic controllers came from. Russia has very publicly made their recordings available, so they would obviously be a source. If Ukraine is saying that they ". . . have yet to receive any formal request for the tapes [from the DSB official investigation]" then how can they be a source of info for the DSB? --82.198.102.128 (talk) 13:17, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The day after my posting, DSB relased an FAQ (Dutch original, English translation) which differs in one point from the August 11 statement: While flight recorders, sattelite and radar images are still mentioned, ATC data is no longer mentioned. I have also directly asked the DSB about the ATC data, but I got a "we won't tell" reply. So no helpful information from that side so far. --PM3 (talk) 02:53, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@PM3: , regarding your comments, the conclusion of the english-language Wikipedia editors appears to be:

  • Yes the BBC did report that "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukranian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."
  • The Ukrainian ambassador to Malaysia actually said: "There is no proof or any evidence that the tapes were confiscated by the SBU". This is not strictly a denial that that the recordings were confiscated. I doubt most native-english speakers would spot the subtle difference, so there's no need to feel bad about interpreting these words as a denial.
  • DSB does not say exactly whose "air traffic control and radar data" is being compared".
  • Yes, basically, the Russian ambassador to the UN did demand that: They [Ukraine] have to provide records of conversations between their air-traffic controllers [and pilots].
So the apparent contradictions could actually be reconciled - if somebody really wanted to. But the thing is: so what? This subject is not mentioned in the english-language article anyway.
PS: the german-language version has a much more neutral tone to it. Well done. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 08:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is normal to impound the ATC recordings after an incident or accident most if not all the relevant discussion is also on the aircraft voice recorder, so I am not sure what all the fuss is about it doesnt actually appear to be relevant. MilborneOne (talk) 08:47, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aye, I was thinking the same thing. The cockpit voice recorder would have all the ATC-Aircraft conversations on it, and the DSB confirms they have the CVR [6]. There's also the fact that the DSB hasn't requested the tapes yet anyway, according to the NST [7]. Stickee (talk) 08:52, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not strictly true - 1) The CVR will only reveal what ATC said to MH17, not conversations with other aircraft in the area (or show that there weren't any). Ukrainian radar data will also show what (if any) other aircraft were in the area. 2) Humennyi said that "if a formal request was made by Malaysia or the international investigation team, Ukraine would extend its cooperation". The international investigation team is not the same thing as the DSB. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 09:13, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(1)Slight error the VCR will record all transmissions from atc to all aircraft on the frequency in use by the aircraft it has no way of knowing the air traffic are talking to somebody else. MilborneOne (talk) 09:45, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes: "on the frequency in use by the aircraft" - not traffic using a different frequency --82.198.102.128 (talk) 09:55, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If it is on a different frequency it is not under the control of the FIR sector so not really relevant. MilborneOne (talk) 11:42, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think you'll find that all aviation frequencies are under the control of the FIR sector - not just the ones in regular use. See here for some common civvy ones in Ukraine or here (and search for Kiev) to find 22 military ones. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 12:20, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
True but none are relevant to the incident or investigation as MH17 was probably only using one frequency plus guard at the time, if MH17 talked on other channels it will be in the voice recordered data, suspect we are in the realms of original research so perhaps just need to wait for the preliminary report and then we can judge if any of this is actually relevant. MilborneOne (talk) 12:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's just it - an accident investigation HAS to consider ALL possibilities - including what OTHER aircraft were in the area. Only ATC data can help with that - VCR won't. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 12:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
re: "It is normal to impound the ATC recordings." Normal, yes, if not obligatory, but it would normally be done by those authorised/certified to do so (in this case authorised/certified by the EASA, probably). What's not normal is confiscation by security services. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 10:09, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems clear to me that no editor is going to include this subject in the main article, so why don't we just call it quits here and let it disappear down the memory-hole into the archive? I think that @PM3: - the OP - has enough info here to make his mind up for the german-language version. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 12:52, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking on notability is this: what is the most damning thing that could possibly be on that ATC tape? That a Ukrainian controller sent the aircraft, along with many others, down a corridor that international agencies considered safe? It suddenly became unsafe when somebody gave the guerrillas a launcher that could reach airliner cruise altitude, and that happened with no warning. The Churkin remark is a Soundbite of the Week for the domestic media consumption, and at most a foot in the door for Russia to try to discredit the Dutch investigation in a few weeks (note that they're laying the groundwork for that now). But I won't come behind you and remove it. Geogene (talk) 16:03, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is related to the request for the ATC records: [8]. Getting ready to reject the report's findings. Geogene (talk) 20:09, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
re: "what is the most damning thing that could possibly be on that ATC tape?" - that miltary aircraft were operating close by the civilian aircraft - directed by Ukrainian ATC. Why do you bother trying to trivialise the issue - as a way of dropping it - when it has already been effectively dropped anyway through being ignored? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.117.204.133 (talk) 07:47, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As no-one seems prepared to cover the subject - or offer convincing reasons why not - I have made it the subject of an edit request, --87.117.204.133 (talk) 13:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Stickee reckons this is still under discussion so: I would like to request that the following being included in the article:

  • On 17 July the BBC reported that "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukranian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency." BBC
  • The Ukrainian ambassador to Malaysia said: "There is no proof or any evidence that the tapes were confiscated by the SBU". NST
  • The Russian envoy to the UN Security Council has demanded Kiev release all records of its air-traffic controllers' communications with the plane. Daily Mail

--87.117.204.133 (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, there's not going to be anything damning on those audiotapes the Kremlin is asking for except for Ukrainian ATC routing the flight down a corridor that was believed to be safe. Any communications between the ATC and MH17 would have taken place over standard VHF frequencies that would have been monitored by every other commercial aircraft in the area and would probably have been recorded on the CVR (along with, "Why is that Su-25 shooting at us?") Further, the DSB would probably just ask for whatever it doesn't have that it needs. But by making allegations about "missing" data, certain parties can make it look like something nefarious is going on that isn't. It's food for conspiracy theories that we normally wouldn't include in the article. Geogene (talk) 18:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So basically, after researching the topic yourself, the conclusion is that these three sources were wrong to have reported it. --87.117.204.133 (talk) 19:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be misinterpreting the prohibition on OR (which is a ban on putting OR in article content) to say that we are forbidden from using research/argumentation to debate notability on talk pages and noticeboards (which happens daily). Geogene (talk) 20:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, what are you proposing to add? Something like...Russia asked Ukraine to publish its air traffic control records? Geogene (talk) 20:10, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am only proposing to add details from what the sources reported, such as:
  • On 17 July the BBC reported that "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukranian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency." BBC
  • The Ukrainian ambassador to Malaysia said: "There is no proof or any evidence that the tapes were confiscated by the SBU". NST
  • The Russian envoy to the UN Security Council has demanded Kiev release all records of its air-traffic controllers' communications with the plane. Daily Mail

Please feel free to add any further info from these sources (or indeed any other RS that covered the subject). --87.117.204.133 (talk) 21:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I added a sentence from Reuters about Russia demanding that the CVR and ATC audio be published. I think that meets the notability criteria because it's being repeated and was picked up by Reuters (whether it will be lasting is another matter). This stuff about seizing ATC data doesn't seem to have resonance in the sources. In my opinion, a passing remark from the BBC on it isn't enough. Geogene (talk) 22:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone with a genuine interest in the possible relevance of the missing ATC data, this covers quite a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.198.102.128 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The DSB Preliminary Report says that The data obtained was the following:

NPOV template

The lead is way unbalanced. We have one editor who appears to admit it should be giving the US government point of view strongly. Sources which state that Western government merely 'suspect' separatists shot down the plane are not given space in the lead. The Russian government point of view is given little pscae and placed well down the page even though there is evidence that most of the Russian population subscribe to it. The lead is effectively controlled by a group of editors who seem to wish to promote only the US government point of view. That is not the function of wikipedia. Given the discussions which have been ongoing here this template should have been in place for weeks past. Sceptic1954 (talk) 22:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone, please don't edit war over the NPOV template such as happens in articles in Wikipedia that are controlled by activists. Please let it be. Even if you don't agree that the article is not neutral, the template helps draw more people to the talk page. Cla68 (talk) 22:16, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Cla68, if you want more editors involved, then call for protection to be lifted so more editors can edit. What's "controlled by activists" here is the contention that the article does not given enough credence to Kremlin claims and therefore should be templated. WIkipedia does not owe either the White House or the Kremlin anything. What we owe to our readers is the presentation of reliably sourced material. That, right there, explains why the Kremlin view is not dominant and as far as I'm concerned bogus, demonstrably false Kremlin contentions are given too much space as it is such that the NPOV problem is going to far the other way. But rather than template I provide SPECIFIC reasons why a source is or is not reliable.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:59, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody has attempted to remove the NPOV template, Cla68. Geogene (talk) 22:28, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
An article that is templated simply because an editor believes the "Russian government point of view" is not featured prominently enough is not sufficient reason to maintain a template. If there is an objection, then spell it out. See Wikipedia:NPOV dispute.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:52, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The lead reflects reliable references so just because you dont agree with it is not a reason to add a npov tag. The lead is not controlled by anybody and is a combined effort from all the editors that work here and is driven by consensus. The lead reports what is being said on all sides (and as far as I know the conflict in the area of the incidents has nothing to do with the United States so cant really be a "side" if you want to be neutral). The fact that "Russian population subscribe" to the view of the Russian media is not really relevant and both the Russian and Ukrainian view is mentioned, although perhaps if different the Dutch and Malaysian view should be stated. Dont really know what you mean by "that Western government" as far is know a "western government" doesnt exist. So you really need to reconsider adding the non-neutral template as "I dont like it" and "they wont let me change it" is not a matter of neutrality. MilborneOne (talk) 22:30, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I meant 'Western governments.' As this wasn't clear to you please state if this affects your conclusion.Sceptic1954 (talk) 14:07, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is a lot of truth in what Sceptic1954 is saying: a lot of other Wikipedias, the ones in languages I can read, at least, have balanced articles on this subject. They have articles saying that the truth is not known, yet, and that there are different theories on what happened. This article, on the other hand, is clearly a copy of the official US government's version which is also the version that Western news sources, which are all blatantly controlled by the US government and US interest groups, have been spreading since day one: Russia is GUILTY!!! GUILTY!!!! GUILTY!!!!!!! Off with their heads! They are the judge, the jury, the DA, the public defender, etc. They have "undeniable proof", "a smoking gun", etc., yet, they have not released any of that to this day... They have not even released what they found out in the black boxes... Once could wonder whether they are hard at work on fabricating "smoking guns" and "undeniable proofs"... One could also wonder whether the US government is paying some of the many, many, many jobless people in the US to spread propaganda on, and control, not only news forums, but also Wikipedia... I really hope that is not the case, but who knows.... Kind regards, --Mondschein English (talk) 22:36, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your point would be much more convincing if you actually presented a coherent set of concise arguments in a neutral manner, backed up by actual facts, instead of going off on a rant containing unproven clichés, such as the accusation that all Western media are directly controlled by the US government. FungusFromYuggoth (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What is a rant is debatable, and I do not appreciate your accusing me of "going off on a rant". It is a rude accusation that I would hope you would take back. Is it a cliché or is it an observation that western news sources are blatantly controlled by US interest groups? They sure seem to always all give the same version of international facts, don't they? Nonetheless, it is my government and I say what I want about it. Are you an American by any chance? Nichts fuer ungut, --Mondschein English (talk) 23:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed: it's a rant (judging by the number of exclamation marks alone) and does not warrant an NPOV tag. The US intelligence has offered an explanation for the accident; the Russian government totally disagrees; both views are mentioned in the lead. Sorted. --Deeday-UK (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The exclamation marks were obviously not a rant of mine but my poking fun at the rants of the western media. Also, the lead does not simply say "The US intelligence has offered an explanation for the accident; the Russian government totally disagrees", but it goes into the details of the US version and at the very end it simply says "the Russian government disagrees" without mentioning any theory confuting the official US government's version. There is a big difference. :-) --Mondschein English (talk) 00:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Sceptic started a thread at the NPOV message board recently as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Malaysian_Airways_Flight_MH_17 Geogene (talk) 22:38, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone further tries to remove the template I will raise it on administrators notice board. Clearly there are other editors who share my concern on this. The dispute is ongoing and the template contains a request not to remove it until consensus is reached. This means all round agreement, not majority voting. First a recent BBC report said 'western governments suspect...' The lack of certainty needs to be reflected high up in the lead. What we have is claim + details of claim + brief mention of counterclaim. It should be brief statement of claim followed by brief statement of conterclaim then anything else sutable afterwards. Whether the Kremlin claim is valid or not is neither here nor there the fact is it is a significant view held by many people and desrves due weight. Sceptic1954 (talk) 07:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The first 2 statements of the 2nd para in the lead are sourced to the Washington Post, here are some comparisons:

the officials said the intelligence assembled in the five days since the attack points overwhelmingly to Russian-backed separatists in territory they control in eastern Ukraine.
which WP editors turned into: According to US intelligence sources, the plane was downed by a Buk surface-to-air missile fired from the territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists.
The U.S. intelligence officials, who included experts on Russia’s military and its relationship with separatists in Ukraine, said they do not know the identities or even the nationalities — whether Russian or possibly defectors from Ukraine’s military — of those who launched the missile from an SA-11 surface-to-air battery.
which WP editors turned into: They said their conclusion was based on sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel patterns in the wreckage, voice print analysis of separatists' conversations in which they claimed credit for the strike, and photos and other data from social media sites all indicated that Russian-backed separatists had fired the missile.

Apart from the cherry-picking required to generate these statements from the Washington Post article, even those chosen don't accurately quote the source. Sceptic was correct to insert the NPOV template and it should remain there until the article becomes neutral. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 09:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed --Mondschein English (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair I gave this as the source for the wording as it refelcted better the wording than the previous. Quite possibly the original wording did derive from this source. Also the source opens with "The Obama administration, detailing what it called evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner, on Tuesday released satellite images and other sensitive intelligence that officials say show Moscow had trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the attack." The RS appears contradictory "The U.S. intelligence officials, who included experts on Russia’s military and its relationship with separatists in Ukraine, said they do not know the identities or even the nationalities — whether Russian or possibly defectors from Ukraine’s military — of those who launched the missile from an SA-11 surface-to-air battery." for one thing if they were defectors from the Ukrainian military how can it be certain that Moscow trained them? However identifying contradictions in or between RS is usually condemned as OR.Sceptic1954 (talk) 09:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would also state in the lead that the US government is holding back on releasing the evidence they gathered. Relevance should be given to the on-going investigation and the lack of hard evidence, at this time. --Mondschein English (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@IP82, the WaPost article [9] does state that the US says the evidence points to the separatists ("...points overwhelmingly to Russian-backed separatists"). They don't know the exact identities or nationalities of them, but they say the evidence indicates overwhelmingly those responsible were separitists. Stickee (talk) 09:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The source does NOT say it is a conclusion. What gives you the right to interpret it as such? --82.198.102.128 (talk) 10:09, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Very true. --Mondschein English (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And even if it is a conclusion what gives anyone the right to present it as fact. The fact that the Washington Post present the US government's conclusion does not make this a fact, any more than if they reported the Russian government's conclusion. Sceptic1954 (talk) 13:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also very true. --Mondschein English (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@IP82: A "conclusion" is a judgement made by reasoning, which is what the WaPost article explains. It's seemingly fairly straightforward paraphrasing. But if you're still not sure, here's some more sources: "U.S. officials have concluded the missile was fired from rebel-held territory." ([10]), "[US officials] had concluded that separatists fired the missile" ([11]). Stickee (talk) 13:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your first source does not support the statement in the lead that "Russian-backed separatists had fired the missile" - only that "U.S. officials have concluded the missile was fired from rebel-held territory."
As for your second source: "Obama stopped short of publicly accusing the separatists, or their Russian patrons, of pulling the trigger. "... .“Whether it was a Russian military unit that did it or it was a separatist unit . . . we don’t know,” ...Privately, U.S. officials said intelligence assessments, based on weapons believed to be in separatist hands and the tracked location of the launch site, had concluded that separatists fired the missile, although it was unclear whether they knew their target was a commercial airliner." So, yet more cherry-picking and distortion of what the sources actually said. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 20:00, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Stickee: : are you going to respond to this? --87.117.204.133 (talk) 13:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is not unanimous (WP:NOTUNANIMOUS). Take a look through the AfD log and look how many articles are deleted/kept without unanimity, or a look through RfA applications. Firstly, the US government's view on this has not changed. The BBC quote does not indicate their view has weakened (and it doesn't even refer to them). Also, in regards to escalating to sysops, an administrator has already commented in this very section. Stickee (talk) 09:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The wording at NOTUNANIMOUS suggests that one dissenter may be overridden. Here we have 2 or 3dissenters at least. Please give specific reference to administrators comment. Thank you Sceptic1954 (talk) 09:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The sysop is MilborneOne, whose comment is currently the 6th from the top in this section. Stickee (talk) 13:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have offered a different lead. There is no issue over sources. I'm not even debating the amount of space given to different aspects of the question. The main thing is that the mention of claim and counter-claim should be prominent. The fact that the Russian government have made a claim which many editors here reject (and I personally feel is rather unlikely) is a significant fact in this story.Sceptic1954 (talk) 14:12, 27 August 2014 (UTC)To add to this, I consider the fact that there are other views than the US view should appear before the evidence which supports the Russian view. This is the key difference. It's a question of prominence rather than amount of material. BTW regarding the adminsitrator above, I'd take issue with the assertion that the US government is not a 'side' in this. The head of the CIA has visted Kiev since fighting began and the US press for sanctions on Russia. I would seek views of more adminstrators were the tag to be removed without consensus. Sceptic1954 (talk) 14:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The US government is deeply involved n this. Biden's son is in the Ukraine doing who knows what, the US is pressing for Ukraine's NATO membership, etc.
One question to those who put this article together: how is "The Christian Science Monitor" a reliable source? The name alone and a quick visit to their site would lead to believe otherwise. Kind regards, --Mondschein English (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Despite their name, they're not actually some big Christian preaching mouthpiece (unless it's an opinion editorial piece, as goes with any newspaper). See a discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 26#Christian Science Monitor. Stickee (talk) 02:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't oppose the lead as it stands currently. "Conclusion" --> "Judgement" I do not find objectionable. I still think that emphasizing the 5 days is somewhat POV, but it doesn't stick out in the article; nor is it technically incorrect. Geogene (talk) 16:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The five days isn't that important, although it gives something of a chronological sequence. I'll be happy to remove the template if no other objections to the change. In fact if Stickee doesn't object I am happy for them to remove the template whilst I sleep! This discussion may soon be rendered redundant anyway by the publication of the Dutch report. Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:51, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To summarise the locus of the NPOV dispute in relation to your comment 3 levels above, there doesn't appear to be dispute about the content of the lead, nor any dispute about the air time of the content. It appears to be focused around the order of the content of the lead. I still have some concern that the "claim and counter-claim" ordering results in false balance, but I'll leave that for another time. Perhaps after the prelim report comes out? Anyway, I've taken off the {{POV-section}} tag now.
By the way, the Dutch preliminary report won't discuss liability or blame (according to the BBC). And the DSB says their final report won't be out for another year, so there's still quite a bit of a wait yet. Stickee (talk) 02:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. This is Sceptic1954, my home internet is down and I can't sign in at the public terminal. Yes the difference was over order. If any governments intelligence statements are questioned then I think the reader should be aware of this before reading the detail of the statement, that way they may read it more critically. Let's see what the preliminary report says, it will hopefully say how the plane came down, even if I can't identify who217.26.11.122 (talk) 12:32, 28 August 2014 (UTC)Now signed in, I can confirm that 217.26.11.112 was me. Sceptic1954 (talk) 13:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Heavily unbalanced, many claims are presented in a way that suggests they are factual. The wording implies the plane was already crashing when fighter jet is alleged to come into proximity i.e. suggestively discrediting alternative theories. Fails to mention counter-claims or the myriad of references which do not adhere to the POV expressed. Disproportionate volume of text given to one theory, NOWHERE does it mention there are multiple theories. This, quite frankly, stinks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.174.195.175 (talk) 06:34, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. HiLo48 (talk) 06:56, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The article reflects the coverage in the majority of reliable sources on the issue, giving more time to conspiracy theories would be undue weight, contrary to core policies at Wikipedia. Geogene (talk) 16:41, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I put the NPOV template back up because HiLo48, Mondschein English, and a number of IP editors seem to want it there. Hopefully this will draw in more experienced editors who will vouch for weight being determined by the bulk of reliable sources...and not "equal time" for conspiracy theories. Geogene (talk) 18:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, the article should reflect the amount of weight and attention given in the reliable sources and media. Stickee (talk) 04:42, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
However does one compute the amount of weight and attention in RS? Do ten RS, which may derive from a single RS, each with 100K readers/viewers count more than one RS with 2 million readers/viewers? Who can posibly compile makle a list of all RSs? Seems to me that it's a question of finding an RS to suit a point of view.Sceptic1954 (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Problems start right from the beginning: airliner "was shot down". Is it really a fact? AFAIK official investigation isn't finished yet. Saharaza (talk) 21:39, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Does the article cite a source for it? Geogene (talk) 22:41, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The source says it crashes, and "there are reports that the plane was shot down". Saharaza (talk) 15:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Source #3 [12] says it was shot down. I have moved source #2 to the end of that sentence so that the three sources for it are together and the sourcing of the shootdown is not implied to be there. Geogene (talk) 16:32, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Still it isn't a fact yet. I think we should stay who exactly thinks that it was shot down. Currently we have a perfect candidate for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:According_to_whom Saharaza (talk) 18:26, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
From the link above: Do not use this tag if naming the individuals who hold a position would be silly because of the number. Facts that are widely held should be asserted as simple facts. Do not use in-text attribution to imply that a widely held view is a minority position. Geogene (talk) 19:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Still, it simply isn't a fact yet, so it cannot be accepted as "fact that is widely held". Saharaza (talk) 19:26, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Are there reliable sources that seriously challenge it having been shot down? Geogene (talk) 20:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Are there reliable prove that it was shot down? It's pure speculations, until results of official investigation are ready. Saharaza (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The way that "proof" works on Wikipedia: reliable sources say that it was shot down. Therefore, it was shot down. Geogene (talk) 22:06, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Gold Standard in RSs The Dutch report prefixes what may be understood as shot down with 'probably' ergo element of doubt.Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then we should say "probably shot down" where the article speaks in Wikipedia's voice. Geogene (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Russia's state-controlled media outlets are the only organizations clinging to the fiction that it was anyone besides Russian-armed separatists who shot down the airliner. We should treat their assertions accordingly. Parsecboy (talk) 16:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you're so certain about the fact that it was shot down, no harm will be done by waiting for the official report, rather than allowing Wikipedia to become part of the western propaganda war that began way before the crash. HiLo48 (talk) 21:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You continue to advocate censorship. Do you expect to find a receptive audience here? Geogene (talk) 23:32, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Censorship? LOL. Of course I never expected you to agree, but that has no impact on my view. As for how many others agree or disagree with me, many times in my life I have been in a minority, and right. HiLo48 (talk) 23:40, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have read over this discussion several times over. There is absolutely nothing in it which justifies the POV tag. The main gripe appears to be that reliable sources don't say what some particular Wikipedia editor accounts want them to say. Too bad. Volunteer Marek  01:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see that this has been reverted, as it was done without consensus--82.198.102.128 (talk) 19:31, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said above, I have read this discussion several times over. There is absolutely nothing in it which justifies the POV tag. There's a lot of talk about how the article uses "Western sources", wikilawyering about the word "probability" and stuff like that but it's all one big WP:IDONTLIKEIT. And then that is mixed in with a lot of pointless arguing (see WP:NOTAFORUM) and some folks saying "we can't say for sure what happened therefore we should NOT say what the reliable sources say" (???) which just betrays a fundamental ignorance of Wikipedia policy.

Until one of youse can give specific, policy based reason for the tag, it goes.

And no, there's NOTHING in policy which says the tag may not be removed until every obfuscating battleground warrior is convinced that the article is neutral. The template may say something about not removing it, but a template is NOT a policy. The relevant policy is WP:NPOV which actually trumps consensus. And even the template says explicitly:

This template should only be applied to articles that are reasonably believed to lack a neutral point of view. The neutral point of view is determined by the prevalence of a perspective in high-quality, independent, reliable secondary sources, not by its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the public. (my emphasis)

I know there's gonna be lots of wikilawyering attempts about what it means to be "independent" etc., but that's exactly what we have here. The problem in fact appears to be that some editors wish to ADD POV to the article, can't find reliable sources to back it up, and so as revenge, tag up this article. Sorry. Not how it works. Volunteer Marek  19:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Report by Russian Engineers Union, full version. Technical point of view.

Here is the report prepared by Russian Engineers Union. They are re-constructing the attack on Boeing, compare possibilities, analyze the facts and photos. The report presents technical point of view on what happened.

Google translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.odnako.org%2Fblogs%2Frossiyskiy-soyuz-inzhenerov-rekonstrukciya-ataki-na-boing%2F&edit-text=&act=url

Original text in Russian: http://www.odnako.org/blogs/rossiyskiy-soyuz-inzhenerov-rekonstrukciya-ataki-na-boing/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.39.247.53 (talk) 18:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am not at all convinced this is sufficiently relevant / reliable and would rather wait for the official investigation. As far as I understand this (through the large untranslated sections) this report suggests that the plane was shot down by cannonfire from a fighter plane; as they more or less conclusively rule out the air to air missiles (to weak) and doubt the BUK scenario. The plane would have been a Mig29 (as the Su25 cannot maintain the cruising altitude of MH17 long enough to effectively use the gun). Apparently the Mig29 has a similar radar profile as Su25. Wow and all that without access to anything but freely available internet information (their claim). Arnoutf (talk) 18:45, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously you were too busy to actually read the report because you are misinterpreting it. I have just checked: the report is fully translated in English by Google translate, and authors did not rule out Su25 plane as you mention, neither they insisted on using gun only. The report is written in a neutral manner and logically explains probability of different options, whether BUK or plane. Until the official results published, which may be not soon, this report is a good review of the facts community already have. Apparently the report has more information and is better structured than many of the source links at the bottom of the page. Saying that the report is not quite relevant is ridiculous - I believe the only explanation is biased opinion based on sticking to official US government version, while the report considers several options. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.39.247.53 (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
UPD Unfortunately, not all text was translated by google. My bad. Sorry for misunderstanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.39.247.53 (talk) 19:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is what we call original research so is not really relevant to this article. MilborneOne (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree. Quite fascinating. But classic OR. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I agree. For the opinion of the Russian Union of Engineers it isn't OR. I would prefer to find the document at the REU page, but their page does mention their taking part in this conference. Geogene (talk) 15:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it isn't OR, it's WP:PRIMARY. If there are reliable secondary sources which discuss the report then maybe we can say something about it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:53, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are the following sources: http://news.rambler.ru/26622925/ , http://www.bfm.ru/news/270419 Saharaza (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But are these reliable. Rambler.ru appears to be a portal and as such probably not more reliable than e.g. Yahoo in this context. I could not even find any description of BFM quickly. Arnoutf (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are many others, e.g. http://expert.ru/2014/08/23/ekspertyi-soyuza-inzhenerov-malazijskij-boing-skorej-vsego-sbit-s-samoleta/?n=171 Saharaza (talk) 21:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This report is not OR and should be included. It is a very thorough and neutral investigation. It presents all its evidence in a nice concise manner.121.45.26.144 (talk) 11:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Way too much US Side in the Lead

This part belongs in the cause, the lead is fine without it:

The US sources stated that their judgement was based on sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel patterns in the wreckage, voice print analysis of separatists' conversations in which they claimed credit for the strike, and photos and other data from social media sites all indicated that Russian-backed separatists had fired the missile.[6] The Dutch Safety Board is now leading an investigation into the incident and is expected to have a preliminary accident report at the end of August.[7]

Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media attributed to Igor Girkin, leader of the Donbass separatists, claiming responsibility for shooting down a military aircraft,[8][9][10] but after it became clear that a civilian aircraft had been shot down, the separatists denied any involvement. The Ukrainian government says the missile was launched by "Russian professionals and coordinated from Russia".[11][12] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mondschein English (talk • contribs) 17:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This was literally just discussed in the "NPOV template" section above, and it was agreed it's fine as it is. Stickee (talk) 22:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You agreed it was fine as it is - some others did not agree. Yet you still removed the NPOV template --82.198.102.128 (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Which is acceptable. See WP:NOTUNANIMOUS. Geogene (talk) 19:50, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mention unanimity, but If we're going to have to go down the policy-shopping route, let's try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Closing_discussions for starters --82.198.102.128 (talk) 20:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Add the essay at WP:TENDENTIOUS to the list. You say we have had to "cherry pick" sources in order to claim that US intelligence blamed the downing on a Buk missile fired by pro-Russian separatists from rebel-held territory. I don't understand your argument here. Do you not agree that if you had convinced us to disregard that one, that we could find thousands of other, equally credible sources for this very basic information? Geogene (talk) 20:29, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So why not pick some of these "thousands of other, equally credible sources" to insert what you want to say into the article- instead of picking three that don't support the statement? --82.198.102.128 (talk) 07:31, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Geogene: re "You say we have had to "cherry pick" sources" - I didn't actually say "we" or "you" (singular or plural) so your statement has a bit of a straw-man look to it. You then go on to say ". . if you had convinced us to disregard that one, that we could find . . ." Who is exactly is this us/we of which you speak? Is it a group/association/organisation or something? Are you the nominated spokesman for the us/we group? PS: any luck with the list of "thousands of other, equally credible sources" yet? --87.117.204.133 (talk) 10:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Geogene: : Your comment gives the impression that the "us/we group" will simply keep looking through the available RS until the "us/we group" find something that justifies the "claim that US intelligence blamed the downing on a Buk missile fired by pro-Russian separatists" . Am I reading this correctly?
No, "you" (that may be singular or plural, I'm not sure) are not reading that correctly. Nor are you encouraging me to take your argument here more seriously by implying bias on my part. The US intelligence community may be right or wrong in blaming the separatists, but that they did in fact blame the separatists is not a point I think is worth arguing. It's not surprising that they did, it's well sourced that they did, and there are numerous other sources that could have been used to say that they did. So I find arguing about it a waste of time. That's just me, speaking for myself, of course...but nobody else appears to be arguing it with you either. Geogene (talk) 16:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What seems to have got lost along the way here (and it was in the NPOV template that I brought this up) is that the original source (and two others that were offered) did not really support the statement about putting the blame on the separatists. I cannot see how the article is improved by having such a discrepancy in it. Why not just substitute a source that unequivocally (and without any cherry-picking) supports the statement? --87.117.204.133 (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then we could move on to discuss whether or not the lead has an NPOV or whether or not there is "Way too much US Side in the Lead" and maybe even the "Paragraph breaks" --87.117.204.133 (talk) 22:02, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The source is actually so close to the statement in the article that it's a close paraphrase hazard. The amount of the "US side" in the lead only reflects the bias in reliable sources, changing that would be counter to policy. Geogene (talk) 22:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand why Geogene removed the OSCE (independent, Swiss based, European monitoring mission) source, and say not notable. This is probably the only source that is neutral enough here to give some credits. This mission was asked by both Europe, US and Russia, this is more than notable informations.Popolon (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is the edit in question: [13]. There is nothing wrong with the source or the OSCE. The problem is that the content is an anecdote that serves no purpose in the article, other than to say that the militants operated with "professionalism". It's POV and doesn't belong in the article. Geogene (talk) 00:12, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's better than our reporting of the bullshit claims from Tony Abbott that were made from a purely POV, propaganda driven position long before anything could possibly have been known about why the plane crashed. We cannot fill the article entirely with politically driven crap without some balance. HiLo48 (talk) 00:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean to suggest that a routine anecdote from the OSCE about one day in their investigation has as much notability as the official remarks by a head of state? Geogene (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No. I don't mean to suggest that. I am stating with certainty that the OSCE report carries far more weight. They are in a position to actually know what they are talking about. Abbott wasn't. His rabid pronouncement was pure political opportunism based on nothing. It really adds nothing at all to the article. Obviously OSCE reports will always be more valuable. I simply cannot comprehend why you personally place so much weight on obviously propaganda driven nonsense from obviously politically biased people. HiLo48 (talk) 00:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think weight and notability shouldn't be mixed up with credibility. Abbott is not the arbiter of Truth here, I don't mean to imply that we should consider him that. Geogene (talk) 01:22, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What's notable about a politician spouting entirely predictable garbage? HiLo48 (talk) 02:22, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wait a minute -- let me get this straight. Are you saying you don't like Tony Abbott? I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you! -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like politicians. They almost all spout entirely predictable garbage. So again, what's notable about a politician spouting entirely predictable garbage? HiLo48 (talk) 22:33, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And now as I check the source [14] again, I see that there is nothing in it about the separatists "defending" the OSCE. There is a comment that the OSCE "re-confirmed" that the emergency services of the separatists "had, in conducting search operations, behaved in a professional manner". So the source doesn't even match the content. We should consider removing remarks in the article about the separatists not performing search/recovery operations in a professional way, as that material may be dated. But we should not add content just to portray the separatists in a friendlier light. Also, note that sources do not have to be "neutral". Geogene (talk) 00:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Should we also consider removing purely political statements based on nothing? HiLo48 (talk) 00:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Beat me to it. Article text doesn't match the source. Stickee (talk) 00:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm beginning to quite clearly understand why Geogene would remove such a source. See the title of this thread. Geogene is very consistent. HiLo48 (talk) 23:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you think I'm up to no good, then I hope you'll be taking that to the proper venue. Geogene (talk) 00:12, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Popolon, you appear to be confusing notability with neutrality. Notabilty is established by multiple secondary sources reporting that information. The OSCE link is a press release only. Additionally, the text you provided doesn't even match the press release. The only thing the release says was conducted "professionally" was the DPR's own search operation, not any defending or co-operation. Stickee (talk) 00:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notability needs a lot more than multiple secondary sources reporting that information. It actually has to matter. You are really nitpicking on anything that says anything good about the separatists (you could fix that detail yourself), but will support inclusion of any politically motivated rantings that support your view. HiLo48 (talk) 23:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I understand you're not a fan of Tony Abbott (or other politicians for that matter); you've made that very clear several times. But just because you don't like someone or that you believe they're "spouting garbage" and "ranting" doesn't mean they're not notable. They've received significant coverage in the press and have been covered in the article. Stickee (talk) 07:42, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The political rants are totally predictable. They might be widely reported by a media desperate for content, but they are actually not notable. Did any politician say anything that surprised you? HiLo48 (talk) 08:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2014 - hidden note: incorrect talk page reference

The hidden comment above the YouTube/External Audio in Cause section says:

!-- The audio has been widely published/played in media coverage and is a significant & noteworthy piece of evidence. Discuss on the talk page section: Deletion of External Link to Wiretaps Audio -- ( presumably: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17/Archive_2#Deletion_of_External_Link_to_Wiretaps_Audio ) but there was a further (later) discussion at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17/Archive_10#YouTube_ref

I therefore request that the hidden comment be amended to shows this later discussion as the justification for inclusion of this YouTube video in the article. --87.117.204.133 (talk) 10:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC) 87.117.204.133 (talk) 10:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why it's entirely necessary, but I've added it anyway. Stickee (talk) 14:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Stickee: - seen as you have asked:
Volunteer Marek inserted the dodgy YouTube link here: Revision as of 20:26, 7 August 2014 but seems to have included a hidden comment from an earlier (favourable) discussion on the subject: "!-- The audio has been widely published/played in media coverage and is a significant & noteworthy piece of evidence. Discuss on the talk page section: Deletion of External Link to Wiretaps Audio --". It may have been just an oversight on the part of Volunteer Marek, of course. After all, Volunteer Marek took part in the later discussion about the YouTube Ref (that was unfavourable to the inclusion of the dodgy YouTube). Additionally - after Volunteer Marek had put it back in - Volunteer Marek was reminded about it here. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 09:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The section still includes a reference to the previous, outdated discussion and perhaps Volunteer Marek can explain why it was put back into the article.

Preliminary Report

The preliminary report will be published on 9 September at 8:00 UTC [15]. --PM3 (talk) 19:21, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Sam.gov: I saw you added info about it here, but note that it's already covered at the end of the "Investigation" section. Should the information be merged there? Stickee (talk) 00:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Stickee: Sure, it can be merged there. I initially added it under the "cause" section because the source said it will discuss the possible cause of the accident. Sam.gov (talk) 01:19, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay great I've put your comment about the final report taking another year there. Stickee (talk) 01:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Sam.gov (talk) 01:37, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It should also be noted that the the Ukrainian authorities have the right to veto/censor all reports. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 17:11, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Where did you get that information? Arnoutf (talk) 17:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, thought it was common knowledge. Here's an example - http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/564116/20140827/mh17-investigation-update-conspiracy.htm --82.198.102.128 (talk) 18:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So it's not just Ukraine that has a veto - "Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium" must arrive at a consensus. My first thought - why Belgium? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is "Global Research" reliable? Here is their website: [www.globalresearch.ca/]. The link given above cites their website as the source of the English translation. I don't trust anybody source that will publicly acknowledge using them as a source. Geogene (talk) 18:22, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Searching the WP:RS noticeboard archives reveals fruit:
WhisperToMe (talk) 19:30, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
GlobalResearch is a fringe publication, and the latest post on the RS/N (archive 155) appears to echo that too. Some choice headlines: 9/11 Truth in 2014: Is a Breakthrough Possible?, The Failure of Mainstream Media, Global Warming Media Propaganda. Stickee (talk) 00:43, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Malaysia PM said the intelligence report is conclusive: WSJ--Ymblanter (talk) 17:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Um yes, these comments "come ahead of Tuesday's release of a preliminary report by the Dutch Safety Board". But that news conference/ report says nothing about any four-way joint consensus, or any mention of Ukraine agreement. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:15, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Australian PM visited the Malaysian PM, an on this occasion they just hat to say something, but actually they said close to nothing. --PM3 (talk) 17:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 September 2014 - second downing of a civilian aircraft by a BUK fired from Ukrainian territory

The last para of the lead has some points of interest such as: "The crash of MH17 marks the fifth Boeing 777 hull loss, the third in just over a year. With 298 deaths, MH17 is the deadliest air incident in Ukraine and the deadliest airliner shootdown in history. The crash was Malaysia Airlines' worst incident and its second of the year, after the disappearance of Flight 370 (9M-MRO) on 8 March, en route to Beijing from Kuala Lumpur".


Something not mentioned is that it is the second downing of a civilian aircraft by a BUK fired from Ukrainian territory. The other one being when Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 (a commercial flight) was shot down by the Ukrainian military over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001. Should not this information be included? 82.198.102.128 (talk) 17:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 might be mentioned in that context. Or added in "See also". Martinevans123 (talk) 18:15, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think this was already discussed in the past, and the editors decided not to include links to any other shootdowns (eg KAL007, Iran 655) since there would be a huge long list, and they're already covered in the "See also" list wikilink. At least that's what John said in this diff ("These are already covered in the list wikilink"). There's also a link to List of airliner shootdown incidents in the lead. (I've marked this as answered. It doesn't mean discussion is closed. It's just so it's no longer transcluded in CAT:ESP.) Stickee (talk) 00:58, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 tragedy was not Buk, but S-200. The plane was in 250-300 km from coast, and Buk has maximal range of 18 km. `a5b (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that makes it alright then. Nevertheless Ukraine banned the testing of Buk, S-300 and similar missile systems for a period of 7 years following this incident. Ukraine’s acting Defense Minister Ihor Tenyukh described the combat readiness of the country’s armed forces as “unsatisfactory” in his 12 March 2014 report to the acting president. Tenyukh said recent exercises demonstrated a “dismal degree of preparedness among servicemen and lack of military specialists, equipment and weapons” in the Ground Forces, the Air Force and the Navy. The country’s air defense troops had received little training because of the 2001 ban on missile launches imposed after the crash of a Russian Tu-154 passenger jet. The ban was lifted in 2008, but so far only 10 percent of Air Defense Forces servicemen “have mastered the required level of theory and practice,” the report said. Hindustan Times RIA www.globalsecurity.org. The Ukrainian military had several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk region where the Malaysian passenger plane crashed, Russian Defense Ministry said rt.com. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 20:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can we find reliable sources about the ban, published before MH17 disaster? Hindustan Times made the picture in day or two after the crash, and I think it can be not reliable. Earlier sources don't say anything about Buk. PS: march 2013 report in mass media: RIA `a5b (talk) 21:44, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

the article is way too long with virtually no credible evidence presented which therefore makes it very misleading

In order to be neutral, this article must state unequivocally that there is virtually no real hard evidence to point to in all of this so far. Reporters who say they "see" something, in other words, "gossip", is repeated in a litany and stream of reports thus giving the impression that this "preponderance" substitutes for fact. The facts are actually extremely limited so far, and on the ground investigation, due to the nature of the area of the crash being a war zone, hard indisputable facts are currently impossible to come by, where the preponderance of actual evidence which is the crash scene and the wreckage, is and perhaps will be limited and possibly even disputed into the future.

But apart from that, the other hard evidence is currently still not available to the public. Usually ATC transcripts are released by now and so long after the fact, black box evidence is released at least in bits but so far nothing, so no cockpit recording information can be objectively or fairly be evaluated. Usually any investigation will reveal openly and transparently this data, but so far there is not even a hint that this is going to occur on Tuesday so the report unfortunately will be filtered. The article needs to delete about 3/4 of the biased hysteria it reports in an attempt to give the impression that multiple unverified reports sum up to actual evidence.

Thus we have virtually no solid evidence at this point to go by, the article is thus extremely misleading due to probably the following reasons.

Currently there is an ongoing media frenzy, and the subject is therefore timely, so it seems that reporting as in any media surrounding war events, usually are poor representations of any objective reality. The old maxim "the first casualty of war is the truth" applies. One would need to go back to the WMD debate prior to the Iraq War and how it was reported in wikipedia at the time to bear out the suspect nature of articles during periods of media war frenzy.

This of the worst articles in wikipedia I have ever read, and until recently, I thought that many contentious subjects were fairly represented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.44.183.72 (talk) 18:24, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. This is one of the worst Wikipedia articles only presenting the Ukrainian and US views. Does not even mention questions in the US about the capability of that AA rocket. I am finding the Russians more forthcoming sadly. Elemming (talk) 21:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, data from the CVR and FDR and not typically released until a, at least preliminary, report has been published. The fact that data was leaked in this case, shortly after the analysis began, makes it somewhat unusual, even if the content of that leak did not much to what was already known. Even so, it seems likely, that the flight recorder data will not add much to what is known already. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The OP is right. The article is full of unsubstantiated, propaganda style claims that the evil Russians are at fault. It's an appalling article. HiLo48 (talk) 21:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
specific examples? there shouldn't be unsubstantiated propaganda style claims - articles are meant to be led by RS. if there are egregious examples of propaganda that has strayed from RS , why not do something about it. your manner of writing - 'The article is full of unsubstantiated, propaganda style claims that the evil Russians are at fault' - is very broad brush - I don't think, if the regime of lavrov and putin, are the victims of false propaganda that would be right. that would be awful. they wouldn't stoop to propaganda so why should wp editors let them suffer from it without a fight. they shouldn't. its bloody well not right if its happeningSayerslle (talk) 21:12, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Op has got it pretty much spot-on for the status of the article so far. As for Sayerslle's request for "specific examples", all that is needed is to go back through the archives to see "specific examples" of manipulation. I think InedibleHulk put it pretty well HERE: "I absolutely agree that factual and objective coverage is the way to go here. But I'm just as convinced it can't possibly happen. Theoretically, sure. But it goes way beyond Stickee, Wikipedia, this plane or any one state's disinformation machine. I suggest surrender." --82.198.102.128 (talk) 21:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The OP writes: "Usually ATC transcripts are released by now and so long after the fact, black box evidence is released at least in bits but so far nothing." In my experience, that's wrong. Very sorry if it's "of the worst articles in wikipedia I have ever read". Martinevans123 (talk) 21:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We seem to have put a lot of effort into reporting the entirely predictable, obviously propaganda driven claims of politicians and politically motivated people, who in reality have based their statements on nothing concrete at all, and whose statements, because of their predictability, add absolutely nothing to the article. The article would be better off without them. And while the section of the article headed Cause states "The cause of the crash has not yet been determined by the official investigation", that fact is not directly reflected in the lead. It describes the plane as having been shot down, even though that is not even certain. It spends a lot of words on the US version of what happened. We really should add the above statement on the cause being unknown early in the first paragraph of the lead. HiLo48 (talk) 23:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The article reflects what the sources are saying on the matter. You've made it clear here and in the past you don't like what's being reported, but that doesn't matter. It's received significant coverage in the press and is included in the article. Stickee (talk) 23:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great. Another red linked account with a few old contributions, coming over to this topic + a lot of anon IPs showing up to cheer this on. Anyway, it is not the job of an encyclopedia to "present credible evidence". This isn't a courtroom. It isn't some online mechanism for adjudicating real world disputes. It's not an authority on matters-that-be (well, sometimes, but it shouldn't be). It's an encyclopedia. And that just means that we write about what reliable sources say. Period. If you think the reliable sources got it wrong and want to vent about it, you're in the wrong place. Volunteer Marek  00:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Marek, an encyclopedia should report facts not propaganda. There are very few facts in this case other than "the plane was hit by high energy particles which caused it to crash". See the Dutch report.14.2.27.135 (talk) 13:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, we report what is properly sourced AND notable. Being well sourced is necessary but never sufficient to justify the inclusion of something in the article. Something that is entirely predictable, and based on nothing concrete, is not notable. Yes, the propaganda based political rants are well reported, but that doesn't make them notable. HiLo48 (talk) 00:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, it's hard to tell exactly what the OP's problem with the article is except that they don't like it. Volunteer Marek  01:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But you can surely tell what my problem with the article is, yet you chose to ignore my post immediately above. HiLo48 (talk) 01:37, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you're referring to your comment in this particular thread, "OP is right", then yes I have a sense of it, but I don't see anything there except more IDONTLIKEIT. Volunteer Marek  13:31, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If it's the subject of many non-trivial articles from reliable sources, it's notable. Stickee (talk) 03:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely what is notable about a politician saying precisely we would have expected him to say? HiLo48 (talk) 03:43, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's a world leader expressing an opinion -- whether it is predictable or not, jingoistic or not, utter bilge or not is irrelevant. It shouldn't be presented with undue weight, but certainly in the context of an international reaction to an event of global magnitude and significance, it does carry some weight. -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. HiLo48 (talk) 05:54, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
i haven't been following recent reportage on this at all closely but I gathered from RS - the most widely reported idea was that some version of - 'Russian-backed Ukrainian separatists gained access to a sophisticated Buk ground-to-air missile system, most likely via Russian channels.' - that is not the U.S version , as you keep parroting but the impression anyone would hold, not in thrall to some putin cult of personality imo, or simplistic 'anti-West' knee-jerk response to absolutely every bloody news story imo - so the most commonly held idea as relayed by RS is the ground t air missile , no? - oh heres a guardian story - ' But for some this is not enough. For various reasons, ranging from fear, to vanity, to hatred, people need an overarching theory. There must always be more to matters than meets the eye.plots illuminati Russian tv - ( also you write 'I don't like politicians. They almost all spout entirely predictable garbage' - why do you write that here? what is that to wp? your personal overarching loathings are being dragged into an inappropriate venue imo ) - oh here, hot off the press , more on the buk missile system the buk that downed flight mh17 inside Russia controlled by Russian troops - Sayerslle (talk) 13:10, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's an attack on me, but it's such a poorly structured, incoherent rant, it's hard to tell. Please discuss the topic, rather than me. HiLo48 (talk) 17:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you were agreeing with an ip saying that there was just what some reporters 'saw' and 'gossip' or something - i'm saying we should just reflect RS - you want to replace with 'no one has a clue what happened' - I don't think RS reflect that. - capisce that? Sayerslle (talk) 17:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I have no idea what you're talking about. For starters, my spellchecker rejects your second last word. What is it meant to be? And don't quote me as saying things I haven't said. If you want to disagree with my words, don't replace them with something else and disagree with that. That's a confrontational and ineffective form of debate. Stick to the words I have actually used. HiLo48 (talk) 17:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
it means , understand? - i'm obviously incoherent to you , so fine, moving on Sayerslle (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
your exact words hilo It describes the plane as having been shot down, even though that is not even certain - but in RS, one routinely finds such as this, from September 2014, the guardian , -

Flight MH17 was shot down while flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur over an area of Ukraine controlled by pro-Russia separatists. preliminary findings - so what form of words would you saddle the article with ? - also its pretty self righteous of you to complain about personal directed sentiment when , in defending a npov (cough) pusher - you write stuff like ' Some [editors] here don't do a very good job of it. They don't recognise their own biases, and they simply know that Putin is evil. Haberstr may not have behaved perfectly, but it has happened in an area of incredible bias, where he has been in a minority against what may not exactly be a cabal, but it's certainly a culture which isn't very open to differing views. ' - so you are attacking a group for being not as open as you? self praise is no praise - you don't come across as 'open' to me at all - you are just as much closed as anyone else , and if your hedging and caveats , flying in the face of multiple RS, about what we should relay from RS were as circumscribed as you want, the article would say, what exactly, - ' the plane was flying and then not. it may have been shot down but even that isn't clear' - but where are the RS so expressing that? if you have them , use them, edit the article, and stop accusing others of having ill disguised agendas while you flatter yourself your own hasn't affected your approach to wp. Sayerslle (talk) 19:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's very dishonest discussion. The quote from me was made in the context of a sentence elsewhere in our article that said the cause of the crash was unknown. The Guardian quote is a new one about a preliminary report that has now just been published. I will accept that. I was never going to accept the propaganda driven ranting of a pro-US politician, in complete ignorance and only within hours of the crash, who had been spouting anti-Putin bullshit for months. There is a huge difference. HiLo48 (talk) 21:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If there is substantial substantive agreement with a Guardian news report then I suggest you retract your "propaganda driven ranting" label from those remarks which have received that sort of confirmation. If we are going to label the remarks of others "dishonest" as readily as you seem prepared to, what's dishonest is your projection of yourself as neutral when you call the Associated Press an unreliable source while simultaneously calling that extremely dubious New Straits Times article "excellent". It's time you disclose your "excellent" criteria transparently for the community to evaluate if you want an "honest" discussion. You have only exhibited an interest in fact checking those sources that don't advance a Russian propaganda line.--Brian Dell (talk) 12:06, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and a wise Admin (yes, there are some, though I still have a fundamental problem with all of them) told me once that a good way to have a constructive discussion here is to avoid the word "you" in one's posts. Let's try. HiLo48 (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

BBC Panorama claim

On 8 September 2014, in BBC's Panorama programme "Putin's Gamble", it was claimed, for the first time, that two eyewitnesses had identified operators of the Buk surface-to-air missile launcher, as having Russian (and in one case a Moscow) accent: [16]. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If this is true that would make Russia a party in all this, and in fact a party that has a lot to gain by denial and misinformation. In fact, if this is true it would make all Russian government sources and government controlled media since the crash that did not admit to this (which must have been known by Russian government from the start) unreliable instantly. Arnoutf (talk) 20:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(The theory was also expounded, by the Ukrainian security services, that Putin had intended to shoot down a Russian Aeroflot airliner as a pretext for the invasion of Ukraine, but had fired at the wrong plane. (Not that convincing, as it tuned out)). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:14, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
John Sweeney going there and taking to residents - scared of speaking openly , tellingly, - adds to the evidence that has piled up [17] - even one of his own former advisors says on the programme Putin is spinning out of control - .john Sweeney article bbc Sayerslle (talk) 20:53, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Sweeney is a very well-respected journalist. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Panorama may have it right, but accents don't tell all. The recent beheading videos from ISIS showed a guy with an English accent. I don't think Britain is a party to that activity. HiLo48 (talk) 21:10, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's a very valid point. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I hardly think the case was being made that accents were 'telling all' - anyhow , if its what RS are talking about and reporting on, the sightings on the day of the buk etc , so should wp. Sayerslle (talk) 21:27, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
and RT ,putin regime/iran regime propaganda, as you must be aware, hilo , certainly does portray Britain/US/Jews as a party to that ISIS activity - [18] - iran press tv isil cia/mossad proxy - perhaps you were hinting at that belief, I don't know. Sayerslle (talk) 21:41, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WTF? Please stick to commenting on the words I actually use, rather than speculating that I might have meant something else. That approach is never helpful. HiLo48 (talk) 22:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Plus there's a new open source analysis of "Buk" video and photos leading to a conclusion that "the Buk that was seen leaving the suspected area of the missile launch on the 17th of July most likely belonged to and was manned by Russian troops from the 53rd Kursk Brigade." [19]. Pawel Krawczyk (talk) 08:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Anonymous witnesses don't prove very much. Worth a mention in the article but it must be highlighted that they are anonymous.
Nor do anonymous editors, eh Sceptic1954? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
remark read, not deemed worthy of reply. Sceptic1954 (talk) 17:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
fine then! I'll refuse to sign too. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC) d'oh[reply]

Prelim Report

The preliminary report has just been released by the investigation (english pdf).

  • Doesn't seem to be any surprises really.
  • Caused by external factors, and high-speed projectiles. Not inconsistent with Buk or bullets ("A BBC correspondent says this evidence is consistent with the plane being struck by shrapnel from a missile.").
  • ATC transcript included (page 15).
  • Crew properly trained.
  • FDR shows no sudden movements before FDR cuts off.
  • 3 other commercial aircraft nearby (closest is 30km)
  • Report says last radio transmission at 13:19:56, while Malaysia Airlines in article says ATC contact lost at 13:15.

Although this isn't a forum, some interesting points nonetheless. Stickee (talk) 09:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have added detailed timing, flight track and flight levels information from the report to the article already (Crash section) based on the full report[20]. Other details you mentioned should be also probably added to respective sections. Pawel Krawczyk (talk) 09:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Not inconsistent" and "consistent with" is not the same as "caused by". For the sake of such credibility that Wikipedia may enjoy on topics such as this the caution in this report should be reflected in this article. Sceptic1954 (talk) 09:46, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the report does not mention missiles nor bullets. Its summary says that damage appears to indicate ...impacts from a large number of high energy objects from outside the aircraft.
Also it explains why we have not yet heard much of blackboxes. As expected when a perfectly fine plane is suddenly hit by many high speed objects, the recordings abruptly end without any indication of any problem before end of recording. Arnoutf (talk) 11:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I can't retrace the quote but somewhere today I read that someone from the Dutch Safety Board say that they were writing for the next of kin and for history. Please can we adopt the same principle here. Let's respect those who died are not use this to grind our own axes: We should not be using this article to make one or other side in this conflict look bad. Whatever we write is unlikely to save a single life in the region.Sceptic1954 (talk) 13:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Arnoutf: Haha yeah, they do tend to stop recording when that happens.
@Sceptic (3 comments above): Bear in mind the preliminary report intentionally doesn't discuss who did what, because their primary concern is safety and how the plane got to be where it is. CNN's reporter explains it better: "[The report] never once uses the word missile. How can this be? The purpose of the preliminary report is not to apportion blame; that is left to prosecutors. ... Once you understand that, reading the report makes sense." ([21]). Re-ordering the lead like that and inserting that quote has WP:GEVAL issues. The sources are still saying the report is consistent with and backs-up the prevailing cause of the accident. Stickee (talk) 13:40, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
and the source you quote says it was shot down but doesn't say by whom so perhaps the lead should reflect that. There's nothing in the report to suggest by whom. And if sources say that US intelligence claims they are only reliably reporting a claim, just as RT might reliably report a Russian government claim. Sceptic1954 (talk) 14:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(It's not so much the case that the FDRs "stop recording" - there's just nothing left to record.) Martinevans123 (talk) 14:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
if the report points to ground to air missile, - that isn't trying to make one side look bad sceptic1954, -(Russians and their map) -or axe grinding is it? that's reality making one side look bad - here is eliot Higgins talking about the report - says it doesn't add much to the picture really [22] Sayerslle (talk) 14:47, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
With the available information I think it is safe to write that the plane was shot down. This does not indicate who did it or even that the weapon was a Surface-to-Air Missile. In a suitable subsection the article could then go on to cite the different explanations from notable news outlets that have dealt with the tragedy (as a side effect indicating credibility or lack thereof of these news outlets). For example rt.com that writes about a Ukrainian SU-25: "[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane", http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/. I think such attempts from notable news outlets to explain the tragedy are noteworthy. Alternatively, if a news outlet is deemed to be just a propaganda tool, then the article could identify it as such, or just avoid it alltogether as a source. Lklundin (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
RT is a propaganda tool - [23] says the ' damage is consistent with what we would expect from an attack by a large surface-to-air missile (SAM), with detonation triggered by a proximity fuse showering a target with shrapnel.' the interpreter report says 'The radar evidence under review, will make it clear whether or not the Ukrainian Su-25, claimed by Russia to be operating close to MH17, was actually there or not.' Sayerslle (talk) 16:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Interpreter Mag is a propaganda tool - as has been pointed out several times before. It is a self-published "Project of The Institute of Modern Russia" [24]: The Institute of Modern Russia (IMR) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy organization—a think tank—with offices in New York and Washington DC. IMR's mission is to foster democratic and economic development in Russia through research, advocacy, public events, and grant-making. We are committed to strengthening respect for human rights, the rule of law, and civil society in Russia. Our goal is to promote a principles-based approach to US-Russia relations and Russia's integration into the community of democracies. The source given is "Powered by Pressimus", tag line: Find useful snippets of content. Weave them into your stories. ((Press)) to share with the world. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 16:19, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
its written by intelligent people though, don't you think ?, - are you saying what is quoted from it is wrong, or do you just outright dismiss anything not from RT and herr putin. Sayerslle (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As this appears to be a personal attack. I will simply ignore it. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 18:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
He's not Herr Putin, he's a Gaspadin Putin. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC) [reply]
Yeah the report doesn't reveal anything new regarding the cause. The report was never going to discuss who shot what (as said in their press release), so nothing has changed. US, Ukraine, Russia, Malaysia etc are still making the same claims about the cause, and the sources are reporting them with the same weight as before. Stickee (talk) 03:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

DSB preliminary report: English-language version is the version of record

Here are archives of the preliminary report files:
In English page 6 of 34: "This report is published in the Dutch and English languages. If there is a difference in interpretation between the Dutch and English versions, the English text will prevail."
In Dutch page 5 of 35: "Dit rapport is zowel in het Nederlands als in het Engels verschenen. Indien er verschil bestaat in de interpretatie van het Nederlandse en Engelse rapport, is het Engelse rapport leidend."

Whenever there is a difference between the English and Dutch versions, use the English version as the source WhisperToMe (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

cause section

In my view, the preliminary report gives enough material to seriously edit the cause section.

I suggest to start with a brief paragraph giving the main finding of the report:

The official investigation is being carried out by the Dutch Safety Board.[116] The preliminary report published on 9 September 2014 concluded no indications of any problems were present on the black box. The report also concluded that the damage of the plain suggested impacts from a large number of high energy objects from outside the aircraft.

Then on to a second paragraph, which should probably report something about alternative theories in some sentences, something like:

Immediately after the crash several media and governments suggested a BUK missile as the most likely cause. Russian media and officials suggested that the crash might also have been caused by air to air missiles or gun fire from a fighter plane.

And leave it at that. The whole cause section should probably not be much more than about 15 lines. It may grow when more official reports are becoming published. Also other crash articles that have a cause section tend to keep those fairly short and to the point (see Japan Airlines Flight 123 Tenerife airport disaster)

The whole mess about who actually pulled the trigger is not about the cause of the crash, but about the blame; aftermath; criminal investigation; speculation about responsibility. I suggest to move that to another sections because that is not cause in itself. Arnoutf (talk) 17:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Would support. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- 'the SA-11 is a member of a class of weapon that carries a fragmenting warhead with a proximity fuze. If a missile like that functioned as designed, it would cause damage like that evident in the debris of Flight 17.' [25] -I don't think the alternative theories should be given equal weight , per UNDUE - all theories about the cause are not equal - its misleading to suggest they are equally valid, or have been so treated by RS -Sayerslle (talk) 17:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Sayerslle. Geogene (talk) 17:59, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sayerslle makes a good point. Still, I think we need to recognize the fact that there are millions of people with a perception of reality created by rt.com. To accommodate these millions of people I think the article should include (with rt.com as source) a phrase such as this: 'The glorious Air Defence Forces of the independent state of Ukraine has apparently managed to create - in secret - a variant of the SU-25 able to maintain level flight at over 10.000m, as opposed to the original design from Moscow which can maintain level flight at only 7.000m. Nevertheless, the even more glorious Defence Forces of Russia were able to track this secret airplane as it was flying at the same level as MH17, with the obvious implication that MH17 was callously shot down by Ukraine'. This will not only provide readers of rt.com with a much needed sense of rigtheousness, but equally important provide others with an insight into the alternate reality where rt.com exists. Or what? Lklundin (talk) 18:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let's at least try to keep on topic in order to actually improve the article.
@Sayerslle - I did not intend to say that the Russian suggestions are more relevant than those of the others. The section I wanted to add actually should not make any claims about the actual cause (we will leave that to future reports). Instead it is my intention that this section lists theories raised by governments/media that are not the formal report. It is undeniable that the Russian government and media have launched such theories; and mentioning that the Russians suggested alternatives (unlikely as they may be) is in itself relevant to mention (and does not give undue attention to their POV in my opinion, as we clearly claim this is a Russia only theory). Would something like the following work for you?

Immediately after the crash media, military experts and governments in many countries suggested a BUK missile as the most likely cause (probably add some further explanation). Russian media and officials suggested alternative theories that the crash might also have been caused by air to air missiles or gun fire from a fighter plane.

Any suggestions? Arnoutf (talk) 19:06, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The first paragraph suggested in Arnoutf's opening paragraph is great, and sufficient. The second is simply feeding the propaganda war surrounding the conflict. We don't have to play that game. HiLo48 (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't delete the whole paragraph - there was a lot of work put into it by many people, and a lot of discussions to keep it WP:NPOV. Media is full of analyses on likely causes of the crash and the article should reflect the debate. Best solution would be to clearly mark this section as speculative (e.g. Probable cause or Debate on causes) and place the objective information (e.g. from DSB) in a separate section that will grow as new material is published by the investigative bodies. Pawel Krawczyk (talk) 21:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah it wouldn't exactly be the best idea to delete the entire section. It was covered by the sources in detail and the article should reflect that. Stickee (talk) 01:13, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I support the edit of the cause section. It should only include information from the official Dutch report. Everything else is guesses and propaganda and should be either removed or moved to another section. 14.2.27.135 (talk) 13:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding of the Wikipedia guidelines is that we should do the opposite. The Dutch report is a WP:PRIMARY source. We should use mostly secondary sources in the cause section, just like the rest of the article. Geogene (talk) 16:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Unless, of course, the WP:PRIMARY source is YouTube, The Institute of Modern Russia/The Interpreter Mag or Belingcat. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 16:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
the bellingcat material has been reported on in the guardian - its a well renowned world renowned RS the guardian - does it have no reputation in Montenegro? you probably agree with RT that it as a threat , this kind of material - what right has the RT narrative packaged and digestible for the epsilons home and abroad, to be annoyingly looked at in any critical spirit. exasperating. -Sayerslle (talk) 17:28, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So if Belingcat can be used because it was mentioned in the Guardian, then the official Dutch report can be used because it was mentioned in the Guardian, yes? So 14.2.27.135 has a valid point --82.198.102.128 (talk) 19:58, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, 14.2.27.135 does not have a valid point. We're not going to eliminate everything except the Dutch report in that section. And you're still confusing the former YouTube source with the current YouTube external link. Geogene (talk) 21:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
14.2.27.135's point was dismissed on the grounds of it being WP:PRIMARY. As for the YouTube source, this is also WP:PRIMARY. Why is one OK and the other not? --82.198.102.128 (talk) 21:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The precedents set by YouTube and Belingcat could mean that any WP:PRIMARY source (unfiltered by secondary sources) could be used in this article. 82.198.102.128 (talk) 21:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I like primary sources, I've been known to use primary sources, and I think that fear of primary sources on Wikipedia often goes beyond what policy intended. But as I said it's best to use mostly secondary sources. As for the suggestion that secondary sources should be avoided because a primary one is available...why? The usual preference goes the other way. Geogene (talk) 22:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is a silly discussion. Yes, the report itself is a primary source, but it has been massively covered in the media. That's where most of us heard about it. The media is a secondary source. There is absolutely no problem with us using coverage in high quality media as a source. And the content will be much better for Wikipedia than political bullshit and propaganda from politicians and their lackies. HiLo48 (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV tag again

Volunteer Marek. I agreed previously to the NPOV tag being removed subject to a particular form of wording being in the lead. This was agreed but has now been reverted, so I restored the tag. Please don't put words into my mouth as to what my complaint is. My main complaint is about the balance of the lead. They are documented in a number of sections. To avoid the possibility of being accused of edit-warring I'll not replace the tag immediately. In fact I have an issuie about the wording of the Dutch Safety Board report not being more prominent in the lead, and surely that is the most reliable of all RSs. Seems that many people complain about you removing this tag without discussionSceptic1954 (talk) 19:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I have no idea what you're talking about. What was the wording you wanted? Can you put it here again?
The lede is "balanced" in that it summarizes article content, which is what the lede is suppose to do. Again, I see no problems being "documented" just a lot of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Volunteer Marek  20:10, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The NPOV tag was not there solely because Sceptic1954 pointed out the non-neutrality of the article. So trying to score points against Sceptic1954 alone will never justify the removal of the tag. Anyone who has read over this discussion several times over will know that. --82.198.102.128 (talk) 20:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the discussion above has no substance. It's just editors - and anon IPs - complaining about the fact that reliable sources don't match their POV. Volunteer Marek  20:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That is extremely close to a personal attack, adds nothing to the discussion, and is purely provocative. It's sad that you are allowed to behave so badly here. HiLo48 (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Working backwards: no, I am not behaving badly. No it is not provocative (how so?). It's not meant to add the discussion, it's meant to point out the shallow depth of existing discussion. No, it is nowhere close to a personal attack. What is this personal attack I made? Saying that discussion has no substance? Saying that editors are complaining that reliable sources don't match their POV? You just did that right below.
Please keep in mind that spurious accusations about "personal attacks" are *actually personal attacks* themselves. Here: WP:NPA. Volunteer Marek  21:14, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If the tag is there readers can decide for themselves. It's about far more than Marek says and it would take forever to document it. I hope some othereditor will put it back. Sceptic1954 (talk) 20:36, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"If the tag is there readers can decide for themselves" - that doesn't make any sense. Should we tag every single article on Wikipedia so that "readers can decide for themselves"?
One more time, what was this wording you wanted? Can you put it here again?  Volunteer Marek  20:40, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I will not replace the tag for now because I really can't be bothered to go back and retrieve it. The lead is a little better this evening than it was this morning. However IMO the article generally is a joke but I frequently feel that I've better things to do with my time than try to improve it. Sceptic1954 (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
it needs a lot more from Moscow RT pov, eh? I think the lead has been eviscerated by pro-Putin pov - nothing on all the RS reports about the Buk on the day etc - seems none of us is happy really. ah wellSayerslle (talk) 20:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that should definitely be put back as it got extensive coverage and is still mentioned every time the topic of this article comes up. Volunteer Marek  21:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Sceptic, for the third time, what's this wording you wanted? If you already got it, why are you putting the tag back in?  Volunteer Marek  21:08, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to accept the fact that this incident happened well into a huge propaganda war, and a lot of what we would normally regard as reliable sources are, inevitably, presenting the views of outspoken people in their own countries. Those outspoken people are players in the propaganda war. That guarantees that we don't get a balanced picture. An NPOV tag is perfectly valid. Arguing aggressively against it is taking an obviously POV position. HiLo48 (talk) 21:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter whether this incident happened during a "huge propaganda war" (sic). It also doesn't matter that you want to throw reliable sources out the window because now, that they don't agree with your POV, they are apparently no longer reliable. As I've pointed out again and again and again and again, none of these are in any any any any any way sufficient or even noteworthy to slap a POV tag on the article. This is *the definition* of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Volunteer Marek  21:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
your idea of a 'balanced picture' - what is that exactly - if the Australian leader says something -it has to be balanced by the Iranian leader ? - why are you obsessed with 'the views of outspoken people in their own countries' - its about the evidence , not 'outspoken people' - if RS focus on the Buk sightings, and the physical evidence of the debris - what would you 'balance' that with - some Russian theories - fine - but RS haven't been too impressed have they? if they have, bring it forth - the tag is spurious imo - a desire to hang a badge of shame on an article some just don't/can't 'like' because of its subject. 21:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Sayerslle (talk)
Just so you all know, I'm getting the sniff of an WP:EW here. I can, and will, lock the article atbthe WP:WRONGVERSION if necessary. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that I will reach for the key to the case of my banhmmer.
So, let's just cool things a bit here please? Mjroots (talk) 21:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sayerslle - I did not say "if the Australian leader says something -it has to be balanced by the Iranian leader". (Classical misrepresentation and straw man argument there.) In fact I said very much the opposite. I don't want any political bullshit in the article. That is definitely NOT evidence. Volunteer Marek - accusing me of taking a POV position is just plain stupid, and insulting. You really are well into personal attack territory now. I am asking that political outbursts from anywhere that aren't based on known concrete truths should be omitted. Go on. Misinterpret that! HiLo48 (talk) 22:00, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
HiLo, saying that someone has a POV or even that their editing with a POV is not a personal attack. At least not in general. Volunteer Marek  00:30, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When you're tag teaming with another editor who accuses me of the most ridiculous biases and badly misrepresents me, and you fail to say anything negative about his bullshit and just continue to have a go at me, it's a personal attack. HiLo48 (talk) 01:07, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
First, I am not tag teaming with anyone, I'm actually not even sure who you're referring to. Second, and obviously, me NOT saying something bad about someone else is NOT a personal attack on you. That's in fact about the strangest claim of "you made a personal attack on me" I've seen here. Volunteer Marek  04:20, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Marek is entirely correct here. HiLo is far more likely to call a source advancing the Kremlin propaganda line "excellent" than a source deemed reliable by Wikipedia policy. That's POV and should be called out for what it is.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:33, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I will ignore that moronic bullshit. HiLo48 (talk) 05:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At least two of you here are blatently violating WP:NPA. Please knock it off. Cla68 (talk) 05:58, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pointing out the number of personal attackers here. I apologise for being sucked in by the provokers. HiLo48 (talk) 07:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Igor Ostanin

I reverted content sourced to Bellingcat at [26]. I don't think a website "by and for citizen investigative journalists" are RS enough to identify the specific Russian unit that (allegedly) shot the plane down. I also think this is a lot of weight given to one source (which also applies to the BBC panorama content, although the BBC is much more RS than this.) Geogene (talk) 22:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Eliot Higgins, and Bellingcat,his project - is regularly sought out by the BBC anyhow, like today [27] - and he was on Sky News tonight actually.[28] - of course it is looked down on by the all powerful moral authorities at RT - look at the supercilious smirk (10:17)[29] - ugh, disgustin' -'Its a dangerous trend' she says -probably has a gulag lined up for 'dangerous elements' then - and, 'who are they?' that moron at the end says - its a kind of power worship really - powerful people like putin are to be believed because - they are powerful Sayerslle (talk) 22:59, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. Can we get this specific content sourced to one of those larger outlets? Geogene (talk) 00:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A quick google reveals a short mention in The Guardian [30] (see the last paragraph) and The Independent [31] (2nd last para). What do you think about them? Stickee (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
the guardian mention is a good RS isn't it - after all wp is about providing information on what is out there , and not TRUTH as one is constantly reminded - I think the material, reffed to the guardian belongs in the article -Sayerslle (talk) 00:32, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is. I manually undid my revert. Bellingcat itself is probably fine in this instance since Guardian and The Independent reference it, until/unless somebody finds some weird conspiracy theories there or something. Sorry...next time I'll remember to good-faith Google first. Geogene (talk) 00:40, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, if RS is commenting on this, that certainly raises its level of notability. We should be cautious about due weight, however. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"...Ukrainian air traffic controllers purposefully redirected the flight to fly over the war zone.."

If this particular Russian claim remains in the article it should be noted that no evidence was found for this, including by the Dutch, who reviewed ATC comms with the aircraft. If we can't get rid of this contention now, what would it take to remove it? Can the Kremlin say ANYTHING that would be blocked from the article on reliability grounds?--Brian Dell (talk) 05:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just put, "Russia alleges that Ukrainian air traffic controllers..." in the text if it isn't there already. Cla68 (talk) 06:01, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is a source of unending frustration for me. If the Kremlin announced that the seas are made of chocolate pudding, I'm convinced a small army of Wikipedia editors would insist on adding that claim to Ocean. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As long as it is made clear that it is a Russian claim, and not put in WP's voice, I don't see the problem. Cla68 (talk) 06:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll repeat the question: is there ANY Russian claim that we should hold back on the grounds that it is B.S. or clearly disinformation? This isn't a trivial matter because we already had an extended argument on this page about whether we could ever say a source "claims" or "alleges" something: some argued that we must always say a source "said" because other language (like, dare I say, "alleged") implied that Wikipedia doubted the claim.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We should hold back on all bullshit claims, from ALL sides. Start with those from Tony Abbott. He had no concrete information to support his. HiLo48 (talk) 07:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why not "start" with those that have been contradicted by other evidence? The Guardian says the Dutch report "contradicts at least one of the conspiracy theories in circulation that the plane was told to fly lower than planned by Ukrainian air traffic control" but, like with that bogus New Straits Times source, the party taking the initiative to investigate and point out the contradiction is myself. You instead call for priority removal of uncontradicted material largely consistent with RS.--Brian Dell (talk) 08:23, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I agree, remove claims contradicted by real evidence. Now, about Abbott's unsupported rant? It has never belonged in the article. Even if what he claimed without evidence turns out to be the complete truth, it still doesn't belong, because he said it as a propaganda statement, not based on evidence. We include the truth based on real evidence. I'm glad you approve of that approach. I hope you don't approve of Wikipedia becoming a tool for the spreading of propaganda. HiLo48 (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You are the final arbiter on what constitutes "evidence" therefore Abbot has none? If it is "the complete truth" then in my books it is not "propaganda". I again invite you to take as much interest in the "evidence" as you take in trying to remove material that points a finger at Russia. I have pointed out a contradiction between the Dutch report and a propaganda claim. What is stopping you from doing the same?--Brian Dell (talk) 08:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Abbott presented no evidence. He just made a propaganda based statement, and we are helping him spread that propaganda. I really don't understand why you would want such stuff as Abbott's rant to remain in the article. It's not going to convince any thinking person that we are being objective. It makes us look biased. You must believe that the conclusion you already believe to be the truth is quite likely to come from the official enquiry, and if we then report it based on that enquiry, all will look terrific. A much better look than reporting political bullshit based on nothing. Surely you will want Wikipedia to maintain a credible look. HiLo48 (talk) 10:23, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Does it not allow "any thinking person" to make a better appraisal of Abbott himself? Perhaps you're more worried about "non-thinking persons"? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an article on Abbott. HiLo48 (talk) 12:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarifying there, HiLo48. But I'm not sure I'd even expect to see it at Tony Abbott. When diasters happen many notable people make public comments. Some may be wise, some may be stupid. It's not up to us to filter out all the stupid ones? Abbot is a major player in this disaster, so I think reporting his comments is justified. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:20, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I care about this encyclopaedia and want it to be a quality publication. It shouldn't contain stupid comments. It should also not contain propaganda. Abbott's comment was both. HiLo48 (talk) 19:52, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Best not to care too much: it's a way to misery. I disagree with you on this point. Abbott's comment is significant. If you feel he is making a fool of himself let him do so. Wikipedia is here to report. The lead, and perhaps other parts of this article would be improved if we were reporting the various claims, not trying to make judgements as to what actually happened. The existence of claims are one class of facts that we can get at. Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Abbott's comment was nothing more than a continuation of the propaganda war in which he had been playing a role for months. How is it significant? HiLo48 (talk) 07:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Weren't there three other commercial airliners flying over that area at about the same time? I think one of those was flying west. Should they be mentioned? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:17, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They're sort of mentioned already in the Crash section (but only names 2 flights): "Flightradar24 also reported that a Singapore Airlines Boeing 777...". Perhaps that sentence could be replaced/updated with the new info? Stickee (talk) 08:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've just updated it with the newer information. Stickee (talk) 00:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Think its fine as it is now. The claim is nestled within the "Russian Media Coverage" section only. Zhanzhao (talk) 08:52, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As Zhanzhao points out, this text is in appropriate section. Obviously it is not presented as fact but as one of the claims made in Russian media. Someone brought up starting a Conspiracy theories about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 article and that might still be a good idea. Volunteer Marek  20:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

New information

According to this publication, the Buk which fired the missile to MH17 has been identified as belonging to military forces of Moscow Military District. My very best wishes (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it did have a serial number painted on the side of it, didn't it (as the still photos in this week's BBC Panorama episode seemed to show)? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:13, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, our article says the district was abolished in 2010.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:55, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I guess, even after four years of merger with Leningrad Military District, not all the military hardware would have been re-painted or re-registered. It also seems hardly likely that all the “50” registration plates would be changed just because one military district was merged with another. But this is just speculation on my part. Nevertheless, to me the bellingcat analysis seems pretty watertight that the BUK that shot down the plane was from Russia and that it very quickly returned to Russia. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This sounds like OR. I personally have nothing against applying our intelligence to sources but unfortunately under wikipedia guidelines it is not allowed. We must apply the rules consistently, mustn't we?
as was discussed in a thread above a bit - this has been nmentioned in RS - and as wp is not about TRUTH , but in conveying information about what is being discussed in RS , it could be in the article o.k imo - RS, are not OR - the short mention in The Guardian [32] (see the last paragraph) - I don't see how it 'sounds like OR' - if sceptic1954 just writes his theories about all this that is OR - , that's how I understand the rule on OR anyhowSayerslle (talk) 19:43, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Unsigned, you're saying that bellingcat article is WP:OR"? How is that exactly? Or are you just saying it's not WP:RS? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:47, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That was me, I was being ironical. Of course we have to apply some critical intelligence. But so often it gets opposed by people saying it's OR or quoting endless policies. Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
These sources (including The Guardian) claim that the Buk likely belongs to the 53rd Russian Army brigade from Kursk, however the license plate of this particular vehicle was from Moscow area... The Moscow Military District was indeed merged with others. My very best wishes (talk) 19:57, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not qualified to comment on the idiocyncrasies of Russian military vehicle registration. But I suspect the question of the identity of the exact brigade to which the BUK is alleged to have "belonged" is a complete red herring. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
talking about applying critical intelligence sceptic1954 - you got to agree kasparov is intelligent, no? and look what he is tweeting -

Kasoparov63Sayerslle (talk) 20:55, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is clearly OR and hence does not belong in the article. 118.210.127.216 (talk) 21:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I believe as far as wp is concerned you don't understand what OR means really. its been reported on in the guardian , - I get confused myself between OR, primary , secondary and tertiary but i'm pretty sure if its reported on in the guardian its not OR any more Sayerslle (talk) 14:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Russian defense minister

Surely we can include his single-line comment in the lead? Geogene (talk) 19:38, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No. It's a pretty obvious violation of WP:UNDUE. Russia's claims and denials are already in the lede. We're not citing Ukrainian defense ministers, or any other ministers in the lede. Straight up POV pushing. Volunteer Marek  20:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's odd for Russia to blame Ukraine, this is something that resembles an actual justification for them to. It's still ridiculous, but it helps to make some sense of what would otherwise appear to be a complete non-sequitur. It's true that this is just a cabinet level official, but I haven't seen evidence that this opinion is substantively different from the Russian government's view as a whole. If this back-and-forth between Russia and everybody else is a prominent controversy for the purposes of WP:LEAD, the lead should summarize it. Geogene (talk) 21:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There's far more of the US view in the lead than the Russian view, this adds nuance to the Russian view. In any event IMO it raises a valid question: were the Ukrainian authorities in any way negligent in allowing the plane to fly over the area? Sceptic1954 (talk) 08:08, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't add any "nuance" to the Russian view for the simple reason that there isn't any nuance to the Russian view: "blame everything on Ukraine, especially if we did it". There's no other people being quoted in the lede. It's WP:UNDUE favoring a particular POV. It goes. Volunteer Marek  00:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there are, unless it was the actual nations of Malaysia and Ukraine that have been speaking to reporters, and not their human representatives. We didn't name the functionaries that gave those statements, we just took a shortcut and attributed the quotes as if they'd come from the actual countries. This is not much different, the defense minister is a mouthpiece of the Russian government in this context. Geogene (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On this line of thinking, if sources were found in which "Russia" (in some sense) is saying the same thing that this defense minister is saying (Because "Malaysia" and "Ukraine" have already commented elsewhere), would you oppose that? Geogene (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there are, unless it was the actual nations of Malaysia and Ukraine that have been speaking to reporters, and not their human representatives. We didn't name the functionaries that gave those statements, we just took a shortcut and attributed the quotes as if they'd come from the actual countries. This is not much different - well, no, it is different. We already have in the lead the statement: "The Russian government however blamed the Ukrainian Government..." So we are *already* "letting Russia speak". We are not putting in any officials in there for the other countries.
How about this: we move that statement to the paragraph right after the words "the separatists denied any involvement." and we drop the "minister" part. That way there's quotes there from Russian officials, US officials and Malaysian officials. That'd be balanced. Here there is undue weight given to Russian minister's statement. Volunteer Marek  03:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Geogene (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Motive

We should discuss the motive behind this event. Possible theories: accident, training excercise, false flag.118.210.127.216 (talk) 21:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Only if they're covered in reliable sources. Geogene (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, what do you think of these?

from http://rt.com/op-edge/173828-mh17-crash-blame-game/ "The blame game against Russia that unfolded in western media hours after MH 17 crash in Ukraine has only political motives behind it, says a former Senior Advisor to OSCE. Accusing Moscow is a great opportunity that both politicians and media can’t miss." "There are programs on air crashes on National Geographic – it takes weeks and month before you can jump to any conclusions. Whatever is being said now is just speculations for political motives. "


from http://time.com/3011538/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-china-response-mh17-russia/ "The Western rush to judge Russia is not based on evidence or logic. Russia had no motive to bring down MH17; doing so would only narrow its political and moral space to operate in the Ukrainian crisis. The tragedy has no political benefit for Ukrainian rebel forces, either. Russia has been back-footed, forced into a passive stance by Western reaction. It is yet another example of the power of Western opinion as a political tool."

from http://www.globalresearch.ca/western-powers-seize-on-flight-mh17-crash-as-pretext-for-war/5392646 "If one considers possible motives for shooting down flight MH17, the regime in Kiev and its imperialist supporters should be placed first on the list of suspects. The plane disaster has provided a highly opportune occasion for these forces to bring governments that until now opposed a confrontation course with Russia onto their side, and to influence recalcitrant public opinion. In Russia’s case, on the other hand, it is difficult to find a plausible motive." 121.45.26.144 (talk) 11:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a discussion forum plenty of places on the internet for this sort of stuff. MilborneOne (talk) 13:08, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The article cannot imply that somebody did or did not shoot down the airliner based on perceived motivations, as that would be original research. As for the sources, RT might be used in some contexts but the general opinion here seems to be that it's a Kremlin mouthpiece and therefore not independent. In this particular instance I don't think the opinion of the OSCE official is notable. Global Research is a conspiracy theory website and so is not reliable, in addition, it has been argued that any source that cites Global Research is likely to not be reliable for this reason. Time is reliable, but there are weight issues in addition to the OR issue I mentioned above. But I want to draw others' attention to it in case there's interest in including China's views. Geogene (talk) 17:08, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Parry-Haisenko-NST theory

Besides of the mainstream theory that the plane was shot down by a Buk missile, and some more or less stange theories mentioned in the section "Russian media coverage", there is a shot-down-by-Ukrainian-fighter-jets theory which spread from several New Straits Times articles (Malaysia) – e.g. [33][34] – to media like RIA Novosti (Russia) [35], Press TV (Iran) [36], Radiotelevizija Slovenija (Slovenia) [37] and Mladina (also Slovenia) [38]. As these are all notable media and they all consistently published the same theory, I think the theory might also be notable.

This theory combines the well-known Russion allegation that there was a Ukrainian fighter jet near MH17, an article by Robert Parry that cites unnamed US intelligence sources [39], an article by the former German Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko [40], and a quote of the OSCE speaker in the Ukraine, Michael Bociurkiw [41]. This theory is also widespread on typical conspiracy-theories websites, which are not notable and do not exactly contribute to its credibility, as well as Haisenko's article by itself is not notable and Parry's may not be, too. However – see above.

I am sorry to throw such a controversial topic into the discussion, but what do you think of mentioning this – based on the notable media sources – in Malaysia Airlines Flight 17? --PM3 (talk) 00:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@PM3: There's a mention of it in the Cause section ("...a Ukrainian Su-25 ground-attack aircraft..."). Stickee (talk) 02:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is so obviously ludicrous that it hardly merits discussion. Conspiracy theories is right. -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Stickee: That's just the first thing - the Russian military saying that there was a Ukrainian fighter plane that showed up as a dot on their radar screen. The NST mostly quotes other sources and discusses the looks of damages to the B777 and what US intelligence sources allegedly said.
@Kudzu1: Yes, it may be considered as a conspiracy theory, as well as some other things which are included in Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Actually there are notable German media sources which say it's a conspiracy theory. Funnily, it seems that North American media completely avoid to mention it. The Parry-Haisenko-NST theory is well present in Europe and Asia, but blacked out in America. --PM3 (talk) 03:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FRINGE.  Volunteer Marek  13:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian military also says it doesn't have a presence in Donbass. Just as it said it hadn't left its naval base in Sevastopol during the Crimean crisis. I'm not really inclined to just take the Kremlin's word for it -- or even consider what it says to be worthy of more than a passing mention when it clearly flies in the face of all available evidence. As to the conspiracy theory thing, per WP:FRINGE, we don't generally devote a lot of space and weight to them. As for the "blacked out in America" bit, nice, but suffice it to say I have a different take on the American news media than you seem to. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This theory has much factual evidence as has been presented by Western Governments of the Rebel-Buk mainstream theory.

Rebel-Buk Mainstream theory based on: - audio tapes of Rebel chatter (discredited and available on YouTube) - Reuters article of a rebel commander which is contradictory (let alone him explicitly denying rebels had a Buk the next day) - Anonymous intelligence services (who actually said they weren't sure who fired the Bul though they were sure it was a Buk) - Political Officials (who Western MSM implicitly assume are more truthful than the Kremlin) - Holes in the cockpit area that can be shrapnel from a Buk

fighter-Jet theory based on: - Presence of a fighter jet as per Russian radar data (not refuted) - Eyewitness reports of fighter planes before/after crash to a BBC reporter immediately after the crash (removed by the BBC but still available) - lack of an eyewitnesses to a Buk plume - Holes in the cockpit area that can be 30mm bullets from a air cannon - unverified twitter account of alleged ATC operator "Carlos" reported immediately after crash that talked of fighter jets tailing mh17

In addition, little urgency shown in investigation by western officials despite UNSC 2166 which demanded ceasefire in the area held by rebels. (And broken without Western protest by Ukraine)

All these are FACTS not THEORY. A theory would be that the rebels used a Buk or it was a Ukranian fighter jet.

The ONLY thing the Buk-Rebel theory has going for it is the support of the Western Govts and the Western media (New York Times, BBC, WaPo, AFP, Reuters, AP) which are considered "Reliable News Sources" vs FRINGE (though these same agencies supported Western Govt errors on Saddam WMD etc).

Thus, I believe the main entry should give space to the Fighter Jet theory as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.69.221 (talk) 22:11, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bravo! Very well said. Sadly they will just continue calling it Fringe and OR and unreliable sources, basically any excuse they can come up with. I've also not seen any refutation of the fighter-jet theory. 14.2.46.246 (talk) 08:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If the Russian military are saying "a Ukrainian fighter plane ... showed up as a dot on their radar screen", presumably its transponder was active, so can they also tell us at what altitude it was flying? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Former US intelligence personnel challenge Obama to present evidence of Russian complicity in MH17 crash

I believe that information from this article should be included. [42]121.45.26.144 (talk) 11:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I dont see why and as far as I can see the US has not directly said that Russia was involved in the loss of MH17. MilborneOne (talk) 13:16, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore WSWS is not a reliable source: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 15#Reliability of WSWS. --Stickee (talk) 14:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The US was not really involved in the crash either. Don't know why opinions there matter so much. Unless, of course, we just want to keep playing the propaganda war. The US is definitely involved in that. HiLo48 (talk) 16:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That was 12 days after the shoot-down, so hardly new. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Joe Biden's Son

I just deleted a new addition. Do we agree that whatever Hunter Biden does with a Ukrainian gas company has nothing to do with the subject of this article? Geogene (talk) 16:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. HiLo48 (talk) 16:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I was scratching my head trying to figure out how it was related. Stickee (talk) 00:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sensors, missile, shrapnel - or aircraft autocannon / machine gun?

What kind of sensor can differentiate between a surface-to-air and an air-to-air missile? How do you differentiate holes made by shrapnel and 30mm aircraft autocannon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob.HUN (talk • contribs) 08:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As this is not a discussion forum you will have to use your favourite search engine to find if it is being discussed elsewhere. MilborneOne (talk) 10:30, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah not a forum, but I think Rob's comments were in relation to these taggings. The tags don't really belong since as you say, this isn't a forum, and it's exactly what the source given says. Stickee (talk) 14:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So in an age a falsifiable digital material you treat claims of one side as facts and claims of the other merely as blaming. That's the true Wikipedia spirit. Rob.HUN — Preceding undated comment added 09:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Russian Federation pressconference on the 21 July made no straight claims on who did what. They told the world that there were ukrainian Su-25 aircraft in the area and that was it. Then private webblogs and forums jumped in and began to interpret visual damage on the wreck to be a result of cannonfire. Since inapplicable facts to that theory are simply ignored by those sources, its hard to see why they should be used for this article. Alexpl (talk) 09:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Another map

I have made a map from Flightradar24 data of MH17 and SQ351 flight tracks, MH17 from 12:55 to 13:20 and SQ351 from 13:08 to 13:27. SQ351 is the 30-km-distance Singapore Airlines flight mentioned in Malaysia Airlines Flight 17#Crash, which had to climb from FL330 to FL350 to avoid the separation conflict. If you think it's useful for this article, I can translate the labels to English. The map gives a better impression of the weather related deviation to the left (starting at 13:00) than the small one. --PM3 (talk) 19:25, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting map, didn't know the SQ flight was so close. Would this map go in the Crash section like it does on de.wiki? Stickee (talk) 00:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think the crash section would be the right place. I have also added now the 26.000 and 32.000 feet restricted airspace areas as to NOTAMs A1383/14 and A1492/14. --PM3 (talk) 00:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A very good map. I think that would be a useful addition. How close was SQ351 when MH17 was hit? Even though it was 2000 ft higher, it looks quite close. Could a scale bar be added? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:34, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It was around 30km away. I'm not too sure the map would be improved by a scale bar though. For such a small image (when displayed in the window) a scale bar might make it a little cluttered. Stickee (talk) 09:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought a scale bar was MoS for all maps? My Geography teacher at school was fond of reminding us all that a map without a scale is like a lock without a key. I'm sure we can trust readers to expand a small image into a large one, if they want to. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Chernukhino as the second possible missile launch spot

Currently, Chernukhino's roadblock and Chernukhino is not mentioned as a possible launch spot, despite that it was mentioned three times in the recordings distributed by the Security Service of Ukraine / SBU. A reference to Chernukhino should be added, and Chernukhino should be marked at the map.

(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-prorussian-separatists-discuss-downing-of-flight-mh17-in-leaked-audio-released-by-ukraine-security-service-9613893.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/18/mh17-recording-russian-colonel-rebels-discuss-disaster-video at 0:30

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975218/Malaysia-Airlines-crash-Intercepted-call-suggests-rebels-to-blame.html at 0:50)

allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F625512395