Measurement (defunct)
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Measurement, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.MeasurementWikipedia:WikiProject MeasurementTemplate:WikiProject MeasurementMeasurement

Archives

Index Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

This page has archives. Topics inactive for 90 days are automatically archived 2 or more at a time by Lowercase sigmabot III if there are more than 5.

I was asked to show where middots were replaced by dashes. The first one that I saw was on line 2. I have not yet looked any further. Martinvl (talk) 15:47, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have done a little more research - WP:MOSNUM recommends the use of middot when multiplying symbols - moreover middot produceds a slightly larger chanracter than sdot. Please reinstate the middots. Martinvl (talk) 15:55, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably your line 2 includes:

The unit symbol is km/h or km·h⁻¹.

Which I replaced with

The unit symbol is km/h or km⋅h⁻¹.

This was a replacement of middot (·) with sdot (⋅), not with a dash as you stated. The MoS is not fully consistent; however, review Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Mathematics#Multiplication sign – it makes some mention of the sdot where multiplication is intended. This fits more closely with the Unicode wording accoding to my memory.

OTOH, on the presumption that you do not consider article to be scientific (it is clearly not mathematical), I will replace the sdots with middots again. You clearly prefer the larger dot (though I personally don't see the point). — Quondum 16:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may both be right. I too thought that Quondum had inserted dashes and when I look very closely at my monitor I see the sdot displayed as two pixels wide and one tall. If I then zoom the display it varies; sometimes it's clearly a dot, as tall as it's wide, and sometimes it's clearly wider than it's tall, while the middot retains equal height and width throughout. I don't think my setup is particularly unusual. I suppose it may be a bit different to those in common use when that part of the MOS was written, which leads to the horrid thought that it might be better to avoid the sdot even in scientific and mathematical contexts. NebY (talk) 19:16, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The references in the <gallery> section work fine if they're moved outside of the gallery, but {{reflist}} isn't processing them correctly within the gallery. My first inclination is to try moving the references within the reflist (like Parable of the Sunfish) but that's a pretty drastic change. Other solutions? GaramondLethe 06:00, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have solved the problem, but I used the difficult way - I formatted the citations myself. I know from experience that when multiple templates are used, all sorts of wierd conditions come up and it is often quicker to ditch the template than to find a work-around. Martinvl (talk) 10:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I had thought of several solutions, all of which were more complicated than that. Nice work! GaramondLethe 20:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following was posted on my talk page:

If it is of sufficient importance to have a section, then the contents of that section should be summarised in the lead per WP:Lead. It is also of benefit to those readers who understand usage such as kph to see it in the lead. Removing it from the lead might be seen as a POV action, as though there was an attempt to suppress such usage. We need to ensure that our articles give a robust appearance that we are not being selective about which common expressions we approve of! SilkTork ✔Tea time 17:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Martinvl (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Placing this in the first paragraph is giving it undue weight. If you feel strongly about it, then work it into the final paragraph of the lead, along with the bit about "klicks", but however you word it, make it clear that even if the Daily Mail uses "kph", official and academic publications (including school work) should use "km/h". Martinvl (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Should"? I don't follow you. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC) And I am unclear about "undue weight". Some clarification of your concerns would be helpful. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Should" as in "You should use the symbol Fe for the element iron." Other symbols and abbreviations have existed and some abbreviations may still be in use, but if you're working with the government or doing science or engineering then the expectation is to use the relevant international standards. GaramondLethe 01:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of, Martin, we had a list of "current" abbreviations (scroll up a bit to see it). I like the look of that table. Was there a reason we decided not to go with that version? I can't remember. GaramondLethe 01:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Garamond

As far as I can recall, the reason was that we could not find any authoritative sources that required the use of "kph" etc (upper or lower case) - the OED (and other English language dictionaries) recorded that at some time in the past, "kph" has been used. On the other hand, the CGPM (since 1960) and ISO (since 1992 or earlier) have specified that one "should" use "km/h" or "km · h^-1 internatioanlly, NIST (since 2001 or earlier) recommend the use iof "km/h" within the United States and EU directives (since 1972) makes it a legal requirement for any purpose associated with the Internal Market.

Martinvl (talk) 10:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I've not been clear. We have a table of archaic abbreviations in the article and above we have that table along with "abbreviations that aren't official but that you might still see around". Hmmm... to be consistent, those cites should be to a reasonable date for "first use". Let me see what I can dig up along those lines. GaramondLethe 17:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article is the first one mentioned in the kph page here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kph. Please add kph to the introductory section as it is probably the most common abbreviation used for this measurement of speed. Here is some proof if you didn't already know it http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/kph.

There are at least 10 different abbreviations of kilometers per hour, all of which are now archaic. They are listed later in the article. The symbol km/h is now in common (though not universal) use. Garamond Lethet
c 23:14, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some abbreviations may be archaic, but kph is not - it is current and common, and certainly more familiar than km·h^−1, so should figure in the first sentence at least on a par with km/h. The BBC use it in their news reports: [1][2][3], as do RTÉ: [4], CNN: [5][6][7], CBC: [8][9], ABC: [10], TVNZ: [11]. So to use that as an excuse for omitting it is disingenuous. Béal Orna (talk) 23:31, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The ones in the opening paragraph section are the official abbreviations. Unofficial ones are covered further down - SimonLyall (talk) 00:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The English language isn't regulated (as say, the French language is, for example), so has no official abbreviations. If you mean the official abbreviations of certain major organisations, then kph can certainly be included as the official abbreviation used by Reuters - see [12]. Béal Orna (talk) 17:44, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, DeFacto. SPI already filed. You know the drill. Garamond Lethet
c 18:20, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If abbreviations used by major news organisations are not in the lead section, slang shouldn't be. Maybe a new section is needed, not just within "notation history", for other names and notations (or call it "notation and naming" or something similar, and move "notation history" within it). The "slang" paragraph from the lead section, and the paragraph starting "With no central authority", could then be moved into it. Peter James (talk) 12:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, slang and notations would sit well together in a new section; that's a great idea. But I'd be very wary of the argument that "kph" is used by major news organisations and should be given prominence. It's easy to find instances but they may be exceptions and certainly a quick check on Orna's first organisation, the BBC, shows how exceptional they can be. "kph" appears at www.bbc.co.uk about 3,250 times, of which about 1,310 are in their forums at www.bbc.co.uk/dna and not organisational usage. "km/h" appears at www.bbc.co.uk about 130,000 times. The BBC's news style guide says on speeds "Our style is: 2.5km/h and 60mph - ie with no gap after the number." NebY (talk) 14:32, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not organisations generally, but those mentioned in the article: Reuters and The Guardian. The source verifies Reuters as recommending kph, but an online version of the Guardian source says "km/h kilometres an hour (not kph)", and a 2012 Guardian style guide doesn't mention it at all. Peter James (talk) 17:03, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I could see adding a sentence to the lead along the lines of "Most media organizations have adopted the symbol km/h, but a few (such as Reuters) prefer the abbreviation kph." The body of the article would need a section listing a dozen or so style guides and their recommendations to back that up. Hmmm.... I might have time to track down a few style guides this afternoon. Garamond Lethet
c 18:15, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, but the lead has information about slang and military terminology, which needs mentioning elsewhere in the article whether it's summarised in the lead or not. Peter James (talk) 18:27, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved the slang out of the lead and into the notation history section. Checking into the Guardian cite now.... Garamond Lethet
c 20:51, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian is out, The Economist is in, and I've added a couple more obscure abbreviations to the list. Peter, others: do you think the lead is in good enough shape to remove the tag? Garamond Lethet
c 21:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The last sentence says something not otherwise mentioned, but it's not enough of an issue to require a tag. Peter James (talk) 21:30, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The current text appears to state that the Economist also recommends "40C" for temperature. I think that only applies to Reuters, but it might be simpler to remove the bit about temperature. --Boson (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch—fixed. Garamond Lethet
c 05:36, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's quite ironic that practically all examples given above are from sources that do not use "kilometre per hour" as their unit of speed. They give speeds in "mph" and try to convert to "km/h", getting it wrong. −Woodstone (talk) 06:06, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Getting it wrong? Kph = km/h in the same way that mph = mi/h. Neither is wrong, they are simply different ways used to represent the same thing. Béal Orna (talk) 22:33, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tell you what: if you're still here after the SPI we can discuss it. Garamond Lethet
c 00:11, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Kilometres per hour → Kilometre per hourKilometre per hour
• Actions per minute → Action per minute
• Counts per minute → Count per minuteCount per minute
• Dots per centimetre → Dot per centimetre
• Dots per inch → Dot per inchDot per inch
• Flashes Per Minute → Flash per minute
• Instructions per second → Instruction per second
• Lines per inch → Line per inch
• Miles per hour → Mile per hourMile per hour
• Millimeters, water gauge → Millimeter, water gauge
• Queries per second → Query per second
• Revolutions per minute → Revolution per minuteRevolution per minute
• Samples per inch → Sample per inch
• Tracks per inch → Track per inch

– Article title should be in singular form per WP:AT, WP:PLURAL, and normal practise for such articles. —  AjaxSmack  00:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cf. other SI derived units, Imperial units, and Customary units of measurement in the U.S. such as metre per second or radian per second. Also note a similar ongoing discussion at Talk:Pounds per square inch.

• I have no title preference for these myself. —  AjaxSmack  00:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose all as per WP:PLURAL--this is an exception that has enjoyed long-standing support here. (Can I be pedantic? Truth be told, I oppose as per WP:UE, as "mile per hour", etc. is ridiculous.) See for instance [13] or [14] if you want evidence. Red Slash 04:02, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all. "In Standard English, [the use of the plural] crucially depends on whether the phrase is prenominal or not. Prenominally, the phrase will not show plural marking, while elsewhere it will have the normal plural marking, as appropriate."[15] In other words, the unit is the kilometer per hour, but kilometers per hour is the better name for the article. The source isn't reliable, but it's the most on-point I can find after a quick search. I'll see what else I can find. Garamond Lethet
  c 04:14, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose All Wikipedia rules don't trump English grammar. The plural is used unless the actual value is one Unit or less. This is the very first time I've seen most of those constructions. If there's a serious rule conflict, the rule needs to change to allow these. htom (talk) 05:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all. I think this is similar to the last guideline on WP:PLURAL#Exceptions in reference to The Beatles: in common English usage, it is normally almost always plural unless the phase refers to only one unit or individual. Zzyzx11 (talk) 06:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Mild oppose all. Singular form would technically be correct and consistent with SI derived units, but since none of the above are official SI units (at best, they're a combination of an SI unit and an arbitrary measurement), I think common usage in English (i.e. plural form) should prevail. Indrek (talk) 08:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. According to the logic of the above users, since the plural is used for most units unless the value is one, we can argue that we should use plural for article titles of simple units such as hours, kilometres, inches, pounds (mass), and feet (unit). However this is not the case in Wikipedia. --Quest for Truth (talk) 09:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. These articles are each about a unit, which is by definition singular. Only when combined with a number greater than one they become plural. WP:PLURAL applies. −Woodstone (talk) 10:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The current title is not plural, it's singular: "Kilometres per hour is a unit of measure." Also, as others rightly note, common usage overwhelmingly favors the current form. ╠╣uw [talk] 11:13, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all: Those aren't official SI units, so their common English usage is the way to go. In other words, proposed "singular" forms would make no sense. For example, "dot per inch" makes no sense when compared to "dots per inch." How could you say that a printout has "600 dot per inch", or that current speed is "60 mile per hour?" Plain wrong, except in cases where the associated value is one, like in "one mile per hour" — but then again, those units are almost always used with values much bigger than one. — Dsimic (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I found a previous discussion at Wikipedia talk:Article titles/Archive 11#RfC: Should titles of article on units of the form "X per Y" be singular or plural?. --Quest for Truth (talk) 09:44, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see that this nomination raises WP:PLURAL as a key objection to the current title, but I'm not sure that's applicable given that the current title is already singular. For instance, one would not say, "kilometres per hour are units of measure." One would instead say, "kilometres per hour is a unit of measure." The title refers to a unit, which in this case is kilometers per hour; that the name of the measurement includes a plural noun does not make the measurement itself plural. I thought I should ask, though: does anyone actually use this title as a plural?

(BTW, I see that miles per hour is the same: "Miles per hour is an imperial unit of speed expressing the number of statute miles covered in one hour.") ╠╣uw [talk] 11:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]