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Would someone please correct this template so that the placing of the "Politics of ..." template no longer suggests that countries have relations with Vatican City State rather than with the Holy See, the entity with which the relations do exist, in many cases since long before the creation in 1929 of the other entity, with which these countries have no bilateral relations. See Holy See#Diplomacy, Foreign relations of the Holy See, and Vatican City#Foreign relations. Esoglou (talk) 14:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Politics template code doesn't lead to foreign relations. What page is this issue on? CMD (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was wrong to mention the "Politics of ..." template, and I apologize. I should have mentioned Template:Foreign relations of Europe. In this, I think, "Vatican City" should be removed (Vatican City doesn't have bilateral foreign relations with any country) and "Holy See" should be added. However, even in the politics template, the Vatican-City-based Holy See seems to deserve mention in line with the mention of the Brussels-based European Union. See Template:Politics of the Holy See and Politics of the Holy See.

I wonder should I have written of navboxes, rather than templates. I trust you will forgive my uncertain terminology. Esoglou (talk) 17:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Your edit from 29 December 2012 was reverted as it caused two extra braces to appear on various pages (you can see these extraneous braces below "Other entities").

This template is transcluded on over 7,000 pages. I'd recommend testing in a sandbox before pushing further changes. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 01:50, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So would you please attend to the problems mentioned above regarding the inclusion of Vatican City among the entities that have bilateral foreign relations with other countries and the absence of the Holy See from the entities that do have such relations? Esoglou (talk) 07:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Sorry, I'm not following what you want changed, exactly. As I see this template (Template:Europe topic) currently, "Vatican City" is listed under "Sovereign states" and is a link to Vatican City. What would you like to see changed?

All of the talk about "Politics of" articles and the "Holy See" has left me confused. Please be more explicit (include a rough diagram, if you think it'll help) about what you want and I may be able to help. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment it's a redirect, so readers will get to where they belong. I'm of the opinion that this minor legal incorrectness isn't really an issue, as it leads to the same page and doesn't affect the reader, who would more likely recognise Vatican City than Holy See (in my experience). CMD (talk) 03:20, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see, Chipmunkdavis, that you are right about the wikilink leading to Foreign relations of the Holy See, although the visible indication, which you have to click on in order to see the correct international entity, says "Vatican City". I hadn't clicked on it so as to find the correct indication. It is the incorrect indication that appears in all the pages that link to Template:Foreign relations of Europe. I quote from the Holy See article: "Often incorrectly referred to as 'the Vatican', the Holy See is not the same entity as the Vatican City State, which came into existence only in 1929; the Holy See, the episcopal see of Rome, dates back to early Christian times. Ambassadors are officially accredited not to the Vatican City State but to 'the Holy See', and papal representatives to states and international organizations are recognized as representing the Holy See, not the Vatican City State." I take issue with your expression "it leads to the same page". It leads to a page concerning a different entity, the Holy See, which had diplomatic relations with states long before the Vatican City State was created and which presumably would continue to have diplomatic relations with states even if the Vatican City State were obliterated tomorrow. The existence of the Holy See is no more linked to the existence of Vatican City State than the existence of the European Union is linked to the existence of the city of Brussels. Although Vatican City State is an independent state, it is, as far as bilateral diplomatic relations go, in the same position as the city of Brussels, in that it has diplomatic relations with no state whatever. On the other hand, all but a tiny minority of states have diplomatic relations with the Holy See. Yet the Holy See is not included in the navbox Template:Foreign relations of Europe, while the European Union and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta are included.

A word of thanks for the patience shown by those for whom my attempts at explanation have been and possibly still are insufficient. Esoglou (talk) 15:38, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

However, nothing has yet been done about the mistaken omission from the navbox that appears in all articles related to Foreign relations of Europe of the Holy See, which does have foreign relations in the same ways as the European Union and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, which are included. Nor has anything been done about the mistaken inclusion in that navbox of Vatican City, which has bilateral diplomatic relations with no state whatever. Esoglou (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As there is a redirect there isn't an omission (and in common parlance the two are interchangeable, especially due to the fact that as you noted there's only one set of foreign relations). A reader will no doubt more easily recognise Vatican City than Holy See, and the redirect may be useful in teaching them about the unique situation of sovereign and its territory being distinct entities. The change that could be made is to create an optional template that can change Vatican City to Holy See. However, I don't know how to code that. CMD (talk) 17:41, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neither do I. But surely somebody does. They are two distinct entities, even if their sovereign is the same. Similarly, Australia and New Zealand are two distinct entities, even if their sovereign is the same. If nothing better can be done, any editor, even without special technical knowledge, can surely add "Holy See", leaving both "Holy See" and "Vatican City State" in - just like "Australia" and "New Zealand" in other templates. Esoglou (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In the same legal way that the Vatican is distinct from the Holy See, Australian and New Zealand have different sovereigns (and seems tangential anyway as I said the entities were distinct). The situation is also not at all a useful parallell, as both Australia and New Zealand are sovereign, while the Vatican is not but the Holy See is, and also as both have separate foreign relations. In the case of the Vatican/Holy See, there is only one set of foreign relations, and the redirects lead to it. Having both "Holy See" and "Vatican City" (or other formulation) would cause massive redundancy across the many areas this template is used. CMD (talk) 19:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be mistaken about Australia and New Zealand: they have the same sovereign, the present incumbent being called Elizabeth, but they are distinct sovereign entities with distinct foreign relations. Vatican City State and the pre-existent Holy See have the same sovereign, the present incumbent being called Benedict, but they are distinct sovereign entities with distinct foreign relations (only multilateral ones in the case of Vatican City State, which is a member of some international organizations but neither sends ambassadors to other states nor receives ambassadors accredited to it). If you think the lack of bilateral international relations makes listing Vatican City State misleading, then omit it and replace it with the Holy See, the entity that does have international relations both bilateral and multilateral. Then there will be no redundancy. Esoglou (talk) 21:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Monarchy of Australia is a distinct and separate institution to the Monarchy of New Zealand. The Vatican City is not a distinct sovereign entity. Its sovereignty is entirely vested in the Holy See. As for sovereignty vs a sovereign, in modern international law one doesn't need a sovereign to be sovereign, which is why the Holy See remains a sovereign entity even between popes. This template, used for a wide range of different topics, should not be edited to fix one legalistic quibble that doesn't at all affect the reader's experience. CMD (talk) 22:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My mention of the identity of the sovereign of Australia and New Zealand was merely in reply to the claim that "Australia and New Zealand have different sovereigns". Even if the Holy See and Vatican City State were the same entity with only a legalistic quibble distinguishing them (as you seem to say), the name used for that single entity should be the one that has designated the entity since even before the other aspect arose. But in fact, "the Holy See and the Vatican City are considered two separate entities or 'persons' in international law" (1); "this personality of the Holy See is distinct from the personality of the State of Vatican City" (2); "even when the Holy See did not exercise territorial sovereignty after 1870, it was nevertheless recognized that it had treaty-making capacity" (3). Esoglou (talk) 10:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You keep repeating that the Vatican and the Holy See are different entities in international law, something I've at no point disagreed with and something that I've even repeated myself. Between the two entities, it is the Vatican City that gives the Holy See its territory, and thus its statehood, as opposed to just a sovereign personality (such as the SMOM). This physical presence makes it far better for this template, which can often deal with topics such as geography, transport, and crime, which don't make sense when compared to the Holy See. CMD (talk) 12:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If the SMOM can be prevented from appearing in inappropriate contexts, such as geography, transport, and crime, so can the Holy See, surely? The Holy See is not a state and does not need to be a state nor to have a territory in order to be recognized as a sovereign person in international law, as was shown in the 1870-1929 period. Esoglou (talk) 17:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder how can I add National and University Library of the Republika Srpska in Template National libraries of Europe (it always redirects me to this so I decided to ask here (: ). I saw that you have already talked something about it and I agree Republika Srpska should not be among dependencies and I do not want to do that. I want just behind Bosnia and Herzegovina put Republika Srpska in brackets like it is done in UK case. In particular it should look like this Bosnia and Herzegovina (Republika Srpska) or Bosnia and Herzegovina (Republika Srpska) because there are two National libraries (like in UK where they have even 5). You can find this template through one of the articles I linked here. I would do it myself but at the moment I can not make it right. Thanks everyone/enyone for help (: .--MirkoS18 (talk) 02:52, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just undid an attempt to undo their addition. Let's see what was wrong with the previous table:

First of all, it includes Sicily but not Sardinia. Sicily is not a dependency, but an autonomous region of Italy. So is every other region in Italy. The only thing special about Sicily is that it is an island. Like Sardinia.

If Sicily and Sardinia are in, Corsica should as well. Even if legally it's just another French department. It is geographically, culturally, historically and biologically distinct. I'm planning to add a few lists of mammals and the large islands of the Mediterranean have their own set which is informative of their natural and human history (since most of them have been introduced by successive Mediterranean invaders). That alone would speak in favor of listing Crete, the Balearics and the Azores (the only autonomous Portuguese territory besides Madeira, if the lists of autonomous territories is right) as well. All of them large islands or island chains that have not been connected to the mainland since before mankind appeared and therefore are geographically and hsitorically distinct.

Lists like "lists of airports of..." an island or island chain would also be informative in their own right without the need of going to the longer home country list to look it up. The Azores in particular is one of the biggest hubs for air and naval traffic in the world, many of which never land in mainland Portugal.

Finally, the equivalent Africa table lists Madeira, the Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilla and the Plazas de Soberanía. Of all these, only the Plazas de Soberanía is really a dependency and not an autonomous territory. One might make the case that since neither Portugal nor Spain are based on Africa then it makes sense to list only their African territories in the table rather than the home countries. But then we have Turkey in the Europe table, for example. In short, I see no reason to list Madeira and the Canaries in the Africa table but no the Azores and the Balearics in the Europe table, when they are the exact same: a Portuguese and a Spanish autonomous island territory arbitrarially considered part of the continent in question.--Menah the Great (talk) 23:30, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The key principle here is to have the same links at Template:Countries of Europe, to prevent having the same debates in multiple places. Sicily was added a couple of hours before your edit. It shouldn't be included, it doesn't meet any criteria for being part of the template. Therefore, Sardinia, Corsica, etc, etc, also should not be included. On your final point, it's been the practice in the countries of... templates, where it may not be obvious why a country is listed, to list the component parts which form part of the continent in question. This in no way means that every autonomous part of every country should be included - but is certainly a debate which could be had there. Warofdreams talk 15:51, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A link should probably be included to : Summer Time in Europe, but my skill does not extend as far as including it... Peregrine981 (talk) 12:42, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I removed Svalbard from this template some time ago, not primarily because of it's international status, but mostly because of the usage of this template. This template is used in a lof of "topic in Europe", where you in Template:Football in Europe get an automatic link to Football in Svalbard. Good faith editors will ofcourse try to create these article, and the recently created Football in Svalbard (which I got speedy deleted) stated that "there are no football teams in Svalbard). You also had the List of supermarket chains in Svalbard, which is linked from every other List of supermarket chains in Europe article, through this template, and that list had an impressive amount of 1 entry. This template is very useful, but when you include Svalbard, which international status could be discussed, you are bound to get a whole lot of non-notable articles about "topic in Svalbard" created by good-faith editors. I therefore suggest we remove Svalbard from this template. Mentoz86 (talk) 12:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think this template should have an option to exclude individual countries from being displayed. E.g. for maritime topics it doesn't make sense to keep showing redlinks for landlocked countries like Andorra or the Czech Republic. Or, AFAIK, some tiny states like Monaco or San Marino don't have any national parks, but {{Europe topic|List of national parks of|countries_only=yes}} is used on quite a lot of pages. So I could imagine optional parameters like |AD=no to exclude that specific list item. De728631 (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]