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the transition resulted in what Marin Independent Journal writer Paul Liberatore called "an undercurrent of racism."

should be replaced with:

When he was hired over a singer from a Journey cover band, he also had to learn to deal with an undercurrent of racism among some Journey fans.

as per: http://www.marinij.com/ci_7826224?IADID=Search-www.marinij.com-www.marinij.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.149.33.126 (talk) 00:03, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is a misquote. The phrase "an undercurrent of racism" appears in the quotation cited, and it is not out of context. It seems to me that the change you propose is stylistic. Dave Golland (talk) 03:45, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like there is some sort of smear campaign happening against a person named Brian Camelio who was incorrectly identified as a former member of Journey (studio musician). From what I can tell, a number of blogs stated this and they are now trying to make it fact by posting it here. There is no evidence from any recording or tour that this is true and it seems to be misinformation being perpetuated a by number of bloggers so they do not have to admit they did not fact check their work or need some sort of sensationalism for their story. I have removed the reference that was posted and cited back to one of the blogs that misquoted it. Please keep an eye out for them trying to re-introduce this into this article. Jamesrand (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So the BBC News article would be wrong? Maybe, it would be a first step to write to the BBC and explain that. I have reinserted this, since this is verifiable. Note that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" (from Wikipedia:Verifiability). --Edcolins (talk) 09:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good suggestion. I will write them now. Jamesrand (talk) 03:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While it's often said that one cannot prove a negative (i.e. "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"), it is more verifiable that Camelio was not a member of Journey than that he was. According to http://www.journeymusic.com/pages/bio , http://www.journey-tribute.com/journey/resources/faq/faq-s2.html , and http://www.journey-zone.com/Sections/Band/journey.htm, Camelio was not a former member of Journey. Both the Journey Wikipedia Page and Camelio's Wikipedia page use the same citation, a BBC source, which itself cites no references. (Longstanding readers of my Journey writing, please note that I am "holding my nose" while citing the "official" band bio from journeymusic.com.) Dave Golland (talk) 19:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Time magazine says Brian Camelio was a "former member of Journey and Phish." [1]
• paidContent says he "worked with" Journey and Phish [2]
• NYconvergence says "he used to jam with" Journey and Phish[3]

I think we have independent confirmation from reliable sources that there was some relationship, but not what that relationship was.--Nowa (talk) 23:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've GOT the Flans book, and nowhere does it state that Dunbar didn't get along with Steve Perry. That may have been the case, but attributing that to Robyn Flans' Journey book is wrong; Flans does state that Dunbar wasn't happy with the change & with stuff that the band *in general* were pulling, but Perry is not specifically mentioned. Full text & articles of the book are here: http://holyshrineofjourney.com/flans.html Zenfrodo (talk) 19:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent catch. Dave Golland (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not checking over the whole entry, but this stood out on first read: ", Don't Believing became a huge succes after the Sopranos and GLEE and a series of tours with the present line-up. And that leading to the top-selling catalog track in iTunes history on 2009. ^[1][2][3]"

The vandal can't even spell correctly!

Added: User "Wagino 20100516" please don't revert text *without checking the content*. You're reverting text that isn't even proper English were it spelled correctly (which it isn't). It's obvious vandalism, and you auto-revert and send me a msg saying *I'm* vandalizing the entry? I don't think so. Put a modicum of effort in, mate, and at least read the revision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.163.20 (talk) 08:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well done. Dave Golland (talk) 17:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That Arnel Pineda is in the infobox and Steve Perry is not is absurd. john k (talk) 07:28, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but from what I can tell, it is the Wikipedia standard to list only current members in the infobox if the band is still active. Steve Perry was the lead singer of every one of the band's top 40 hits (unless one of the excellent tracks from Arrival got in, or "After All these Years" charted). So it would seem logical that he rate the infobox. But then that begs the question: by what standard do we determine who rates the infobox? If Steve Perry, why not Gregg Rolie also? What about Steve Smith? At some point there would have to be a cutoff, but who would decide where?

I was editing the E.R. page when that show ended three years ago, and as I recall, the current cast (Angela Bassett, John Stamos, etc.) was in the infobox until the final episode aired, at which point the infobox reverted to the original cast (George Clooney, Anthony Edwards, etc.). But even if that were to happen were Journey to break up today, the original members did not include Steve Perry. Looking at the current E.R. page, I see that every actor who made primary cast over the fifteen seasons is now listed; the same could presumably apply to Journey, which would include Perry.

Why not now? Some would reasonably argue that a five-member band which includes only two original members (three from their height of popularity), and not their longtime and clearly most-popular frontman, is no longer the same band. If you replace the head and legs, is it still the same person?

I must confess, I don't know anymore. Maybe the infobox should simply include all eight former members. What does everyone else think?

Dave Golland (talk) 04:38, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My view is that we exercise jugment in each individual case, and list the most important members, as revealed in reliable sources. The idea that NPOV only allows us to use the same rigid formula for every band seems deeply flawed to me. john k (talk) 15:09, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I vote for all current and former members but not the touring or session musicians. This would include thirteen names. I also think the list should be in order of the date joined the band, with the original five alphabetical. Dave Golland (talk) 21:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also no managers. Dave Golland (talk) 21:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would seem reasonable. john k (talk) 03:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]