Talk:Association football: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →

Thumperward (talk | contribs)

1 user group
123,588 edits
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
rvv
Thumperward (talk | contribs)
Administrators
123,588 edits
Line 184: Line 184:
: I think the current form is fine in British English, where collective nouns can take the plural. It certainly reads fine to me. [[User:ReadingOldBoy|ReadingOldBoy]] ([[User talk:ReadingOldBoy|talk]]) 08:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
: I think the current form is fine in British English, where collective nouns can take the plural. It certainly reads fine to me. [[User:ReadingOldBoy|ReadingOldBoy]] ([[User talk:ReadingOldBoy|talk]]) 08:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::Collective nouns can be taken as plural, but here it seems strange since the image shows a single team member kicking the ball. I think it would read better with the verb changed to singular. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 21:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
::Collective nouns can be taken as plural, but here it seems strange since the image shows a single team member kicking the ball. I think it would read better with the verb changed to singular. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 21:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

::: Far better would be to restore the previous wording, changed in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_football&diff=330578009&oldid=329697878 this] ill-advised edit. I've restored the original wording, with a little clarification. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 09:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:42, 14 May 2010

Featured articleAssociation football is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 20, 2006.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 10, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
October 15, 2007Featured article reviewKept
Current status: Featured article

Unpopularity in the United States

Should a section on association football's unpopularity in the U.S. be added to this page? Considering association football's nearly worldwide popularity, it would seem to me that this phenomenon is notable. There is a large quantity of sources that have analyzed this phenomenon and come to different conclusions. All could be represented here. Thoughts? -User in Washington DC, Max...no account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.32.192.33 (talk) 18:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better as a seperate article. There are probably loads of similar topics that could be suggested but as soon as you start to cover them in any detail it would be impractical to keep them in this article. If it's just a couple of sentences it could go here but, as you mention, there are probably loads of theories so it would quickly become reasonably lengthy. If you do write something you could always post it here on the talk page and let people discuss whether to put it in this article or start a new one. Mah favourite (talk) 00:33, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't there an article about Soccer in the United States? There is already a section about the sport's popularity in that country there, so if you feel the need to add anything, I suggest you add it there. – PeeJay 09:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with PeeJay. Moreover, singling out the US as opposed to say Venezuela, the Dominican Republic, Ireland, or Australia, seems to me to hint at a sort of Wikipedia:Systemic bias. But a brief, balanced mention in this article about areas of the world where association football isn't the unquestioned #1 sport is probably reasonable. - PhilipR (talk) 22:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But it is the 4th biggest sport in the US and growing. It is also the biggest recreational sport in the US. Therefore for these reasons I oppose. IJA (talk) 02:52, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They don't play succer in the US like they do in Europe and around the world. Soccer is less of a sport in the US and popular worldwide but the sad thing is US pays more money to the American players than any other country. It is sad, why do the Americans have to pay for much for it's players. Imagine making $50 million a year in soccer making make less than 2% of that in some other country? Doesn't make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.95.140.176 (talk) 08:34, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you are suggesting that football players earn more in the US than any other countries you are mistaken. The highest earning footballers play in England and Spain Zarcadia (talk) 18:30, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fine I'll reword it, but we should have a area of the page which explains about the Soccer/Football thing explaining it in detail!!

Simba1409 (talk) 10:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Change the Etymology section

The section states that most countries use the term "football" rather than "soccer". That is fine but the wording makes it look like only the United States and Canada use the term "soccer" even though a decent number of Asian countries use a variation of the term. I propose that this should be reworded in a way that shows the use in more than just these two countries. Maybe a map with colors based on the name? Or maybe just something as simple as adding "and a few other countries". Though I believe a few of the major countries like Japan and Korea should at least be listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.50.255.30 (talk) 19:46, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Someone recently changed the wording of that section. I changed it back to the old wording as I think it's more neutral and accurate and addresses the concerns raised here. If you want more information, like a map, you should check the two articles listed in the see also, Names for association football and Football (word). LonelyMarble (talk) 20:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The name of the game is "soccer". People make it out as though we in the U.S. incorrectly refer to football as soccer. That is incorrect. They incorrectly refer to it as football. In the U.K., "football" is considered a blue collar term. Members of the aristocracy still refer to the game by its correct name of soccer.Mk5384 (talk) 18:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, the name of the game is Association Football, from which "soccer" is derived. In the UK "football" is by far and away the most common term for it, since Association Football is by far and away the most popular variant of the various types of football that there are. And what the aristocracy supposedly call it{{citation needed}} is really neither here nor there. BEVE (talk)  19:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The name of the game is not "association football". It is commonly referred to as football, just like the peanut, which is a fruit, is commonly referred to as a nut. It's proper name is "soccer". Want a cite? See, Among the Thugs by Bill Buford.Mk5384 (talk) 18:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the earliest "football" matches played in the U.K., and you will see that they were indeed, called soccer. (Kind of appropriate, as that is the name of the game.)Mk5384 (talk) 18:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there evidence for the name "soccer" coming from some other source? The Football Association formed the rules for the modern game, and they call it simply "football" and it is called "association" to distinguish it from other types of football. 4.243.40.17 (talk) 06:33, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

South Africa refers to the game as "soccer" but is not listed as one of the countries that does so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.167.183.79 (talk) 22:31, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Probably because the national governing body for association football in South Africa is the South African Football Association. – PeeJay 23:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Association Football

what s this? a minor scottish league?--Ntucu (talk) 18:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? – PeeJay 03:35, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think they’re referring to the fact that, before this article no one knew wtf “association football” means (football and soccer speakers included). —Wiki Wikardo 22:20, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nickname 'Soccer'

I am removing Soccer from the nicknames page, the only people who call it Soccer are those who have a Football league in their own country such as America or Australia. Those who support the sport don't refer to it as Soccer so how can it be considered a nickname? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simba1409 (talk • contribs) 07:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer is a word originally deriving from association, similar to rugger. It is used across the globe, not least in the UK, where there are 20.1 million google pages using the phrase [1]. --Pretty Green (talk) 09:35, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

take a look here, see the number difference? [2]


take a look here as well, [3]

If you want Soccer in the nicknames is fine but saying it is commonly refered to as soccer is wrong, Football is a way more common word used for the sport!


BTW non of the pro players call it Soccer! Simba1409 (talk) 20:42, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, many people DO call it SOCCER. Mostly in the US, but it is quite a common term. Halofanatic333 (talk) 12:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know this is going to go round and round for ever, and I don’t have the energy to fight this full-time, which is what it would take to get the page moved from the universally reviled title of association football, but I feel I should point out if it’s “mostly in the U.S.,” that’s only by benefit of its population. I can’t imagine it’s very common in Australia to refer to it as football, given the overshadowing popularity of rugger and Aussie rules in the country, and when you combine that with sometimes in Ireland, almost all time time in Canada, etc.… so when you add it up, I don’t know that you can characterize the use of soccer as a primarily U.S. thing. —Wiki Wikardo 20:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Page name

Shouldn't it be a capital F? I can't change it however!

Simba1409 (talk) 07:38, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, as it is not a proper noun. See also Rugby union, Rugby league, Table tennis etc. --Pretty Green (talk) 09:32, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Soccer" in lead

The only place the word appears in the lead is in the hat. As an American I find it odd that an article on this sport doesn't have the word "soccer" anywhere in the intro section. Granted, we Americans aren't known for our wordly view, and perhaps "football" exceeds use of "soccer" by leaps and bounds in the overall globe. Still though, America is a pretty big place, makes up a large percentage of the English-speaking world that reads the English Wikipedia, and we all call it soccer here. Since soccer redirects here, and it's a prominent enough term to warrant the hat statement, there should be some mention in the lead, however brief. That's my 2 pence. Equazcion (talk) 06:59, 20 Mar 2010 (UTC)

Yes but that's America, how many of the Pro American players/those playing in the American League call it Football most of them! The majority of the world calls it Football, it was the first Football and the only Football which uses the feet for most of the game so shouldn't it have the right to be called Football. Additionally the countries that call it Soccer (most of them anyway) try to enforce the word Football as the correct term, all of the governing bodies of those countries refer to it as Football, take Australia for example. They have AFL and both of the Rugbys, The AFL and Rugby fans usually call it Soccer but those who play the sport call it Football and the correct/official term for the sport in Australia is Football! The sport is not commonly known as Soccer, Soccer is in the nicknames as it should be but most people call it Football! Simba1409 (talk) 08:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Simba1409, you are clearly a very dense individual. We do not care what the "official" name for a sport is in a particular country; we simply care what Joe Public on the street calls it. There are people in the United States, Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand who call the sport "soccer", and there are even British people who use that name. It is just as valid a nickname as "football". – PeeJay 09:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but it is way more refereed to as Football than Soccer, Football is not a nickname of the sport noting the knowledge of FIFA= International Federation of Association Football!

The sport is called Footie or the World Game more than what it is called Soccer so why don't we just leave the most common name (Football) at the top and leave the nicknames on the side! Simba1409 (talk) 09:51, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's just in your experience. There are millions of people worldwide who call it "soccer", even more than those who regularly call it "the world game" or "the beautiful game". This encyclopaedia is intended to serve the entire planet, not just your tiny corner of it. – PeeJay 09:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the most common name for the sport? Football, I'm not saying people don't call the sport Soccer hence the reason it is in the nicknames on the side! We keep the most common name at the top, the other names at the side!

More people call it Football than Soccer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simba1409 (talk • contribs) 10:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But how do you know that "football" and "soccer" are not used in equal measure? Usage of those terms varies depending on where you are; even within countries, usage of a particular term can change. As far as most people are concerned, "football" and "soccer" are equally valid nicknames for association football. – PeeJay 10:04, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Count the countries, which would be more people? [4] Football would! They aren't the population of countries that call it Soccer is overpowered by the larger list of countires which call it Football [5] They are not used equally, Players, Fans, Governing bodies, Commentators, Coaches etc call it Football since it is the world most popular sport that leaves a small amount of people who call it Soccer Fact and math over rules opinion! Simba1409 (talk) 10:10, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're obviously not listening to what I'm saying. "Football" may be more popular as a primary nickname, but how many of those people do you think use "soccer" as well? Probably most of them. Anyway, this discussion is clearly still in progress, so stop removing "soccer" from the article until the conversation is over. – PeeJay 10:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No most of them wouldn't call it Football and Soccer, and seeing that there is more countries (with bigger populations) that refer to the sport as Football the discussion is other due to the reason that Wikipedia follows facts!

Again read here [6]

Simba1409 (talk) 10:20, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now you're the one making assumptions. Just because someone uses one name primarily does not mean they are incapable of using another name. For example, my dad is Welsh and he uses "football" and "soccer" interchangeably. Your argument is a non-starter. – PeeJay 10:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, the most common name for the Sport is Football EVERYONE KNOWS that the way the page is worded makes it sound like the terms are equaly used which they are not!

How about we reword it to something like this 'more commonly as Football in most countries and Soccer in countries with other codes of Football?'

Simba1409 (talk) 10:34, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to argue with you any more over the prevalence of either term. However, I do agree that a rewording is probably necessary. Whether the wording you suggest is appropriate or not is not for me to decide. – PeeJay 10:39, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
EVERYONE else seems to be happy with it as it is, which is why you keep being reverted - while Wikipedia uses consensus not majority, this should be a pretty strong hint. Your arguments are valid reasons why the article titles should be (association) football rather than soccer (and believe me, that argument has been done to death), but not valid reasons to remove the word soccer as an alternative name for the sport, which it is. BEVE (talk)  10:41, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't usually matter how prominent an "also known as" term is. How often one word is used over another is a hard thing to source, so claiming something like you're suggesting is usually not done in leads, and would be original research anyway. How often on Wikipedia does some editor make the argument that, "Well everyone knows this", and actually end up winning? That's really not a respected argument here. Equazcion (talk) 15:00, 20 Mar 2010 (UTC)
PS. I also oppose this "other codes" wording, not only because it sounds totally awkward, but because it doesn't make much sense. "Codes" other than what? Are you saying the rules of the game in countries that call it "football" are more "official" than the one calling it "soccer"? It's a very odd statement that seems again like original research, and even if not, is too cryptic for the lead. Equazcion (talk) 15:04, 20 Mar 2010 (UTC)

This argument, if you want to call it that, has been done to death. I'm surprised you guys are being so patient here. The fact is not only is soccer just a "nickname", it's also a name used exclusively (and officially) for the sport in the U.S. and Canada, which is over 300 million English speaking people right there. Not to mention many other countries also commonly call it soccer. It's also irrelevant which name is used more for the sport in this case, so let's not even argue about that. Backing up your argument by linking to another Wikipedia article is also not the way to go. LonelyMarble (talk) 15:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Other codes of Football means AFL, Rugby League, Rugby Union, American Football etc. And how is it irrelevant, the article claims that Football and Soccer are equally terms which they clearly are not! Football is the offical word for the majorty of the world, so it should be re worded.

If you think Soccer is a more common term then your an idiot! It should be noted that only general public call it Soccer (excluding America who have MLS) all the other leagues call it Football. It should be noted that the sport is officially called Football excluding America and a few other countries!

Count the countries which have Football for the official name of Association Football and which have Soccer, then count the people, which has more! Football!

THE ARTICLE NEEDS REWORDING! If they want the sport called football they would have called it FISA!Simba1409 (talk) 22:12, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No one said soccer is the more common term. It doesn't matter if they're equally used or not, even if you had a source for that, which you don't. And don't call people idiots -- WP:NPA. Equazcion (talk) 22:26, 20 Mar 2010 (UTC)

Exactly my point, the article suggests that Soccer is a equal or more common term which is why it must be re worded, and I can get sources to prove which word is more common! I could even do the math!

124.179.243.193 (talk) 23:04, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The lead makes no claim which name is more popular, and football is even listed first. More information about the differing names for the sport is covered in length in the etymology section of this article. The etymology section even makes clear that most official organizations use football. There is absolutely no need to get into an argument about whether football or soccer is the more common name. If you want to force the argument, the United Kingdom has ~60 million people; the United States and Canada have ~340 million people. And why force the issue, the article is already titled association football, let it go. LonelyMarble (talk) 03:10, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly it leaves the user blank, another reason why we should reword it! Well all know which term is official and more common!

Simba1409 (talk) 05:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, the easy way out of this is to change the wording to 'also known as football or soccer'. --Pretty Green (talk) 10:15, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that change of wording would help with this user's complaint of alleged ambiguity. And I don't think a change of wording is necessary. No one else seems to have a problem with the current wording. LonelyMarble (talk) 22:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer is by far the most popular name of this sport throughout the English speaking world. Football is a confusing name which can refer to a variety of sports. Plus, no one ever calls it Association Football. So, soccer is the only logical name. Just because some Poms don't like the name soccer should not really matter. Jonas.maj (talk) 12:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is clearly a subjective issue. Your perception of the popularity of either word will obviously depend on where you are from. If you are from a place where American football, Australian rules football or rugby league football is more popular, then it is almost certain that you will refer to association football as "soccer". However, this does vary across countries, regions and even cities, so it is not fair to say whether "football" is more popular a term than "soccer" or vice versa. – PeeJay 16:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think interpreting the above comments as an assertion about the popularity of the word soccer vis-à-vis football is beside the point. Instead, it points out what I think should be obvious, and the reasons I would strongly support a move to soccer (though the article should still use the majority wording football): that very few people are familiar with the term association football, while technically correct and incorporating the commonly used word football; and that soccer is unambiguous, and is understood and used throughout the English-speaking word, even when not the preferred term.
FWIW, though (not much), football (soccer) makes my eyes bleed.—Wiki Wikardo 00:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly words derived from the English word "football" are the most common terms for this sport; however, the Spanish word for the sport is "fútbol" and the German word for the sport is "fußball". These words, though similar to "football", are spelled and pronounced differently and are therefore different words. How many non-English speaking countries actually use the word "football" for the sport? Rreagan007 (talk) 21:34, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Check the interwiki links on the article to get an idea. Arguably, "fútbol" is the same word, just with an unavoidable accent by non-English speakers, and then naturalized to Spanish orthography. French, for example, also spells it football. —Wiki Wikardo 00:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yawn! The article is fine at 'association football' - that is the sport's name. Admittedly it is the more formal version but, as you note Wiki Wikardo, football (soccer) is ugly and both football/soccer are unacceptable for a variety of reasons. 'Association Football' is perhaps more common than many think - FIFA, for example, includes it in its name.
As for the whole soccer in lead stuff; the phrase Association football, more commonly known as football or soccer is completely accurate, it doesn't state which is most common, ie, it is fair and neutral. As I have pointed out many times too, the American/Rest of World soccer/football binary simply isn't true; 'soccer' is less common in Europe/Africa than America/Australia but isn't absent (I was at a match yesterday at Wembley where the fans were chanting "We're the famous Barrow soccer and we're going to Wembley"); whilst 'Toronto FC' proves that some in NAmerica are at least familiar with football for this sport.
What I'm trying to say is - the lead is fine, the title is fine, leave it be! --Pretty Green (talk) 10:00, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify (fuck it, I am not wading through the reams of circular debate to try and make sense of all this), what, exactly, is the problem with soccer, again? It’s certainly more common than association football; is it because some Brits erroneously perceive it as North American? —Wiki Wikardo 07:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The commonality of the terms soccer/football is difficult (impossible?) to prove and depends on your definition of common. 'Soccer' is probably the most common term for a wider number of people, in that the majority of the English-speaking world is American English speaking, and the majority of American English speakers use 'soccer'. But, American English writers will also write a hell of a lot less about soccer than those using British English; so the majority of documentation about the sport probably calls it football. So from an archival/literary POV - and this is, after all, a source-based encyclopaedia - football is probably the most common. Add to that that many non-English languages have terms similar to football - futbol, Fussball etc. - and the waters become muddier. And yes, there are also the language bigots on both sides of the pond (oh sod it - in every country), who are the sort that can make Wikipedia a hell hole if they want. Pretty Green (talk) 08:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

picture

The first picture reads "The attacking team attempt to kick the ball past the opposition goalkeeper and between the goalposts to score a goal." It seems it should say "The attacking team attempts..." I cannot edit because I am anon. 129.133.206.180 (talk) 05:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the current form is fine in British English, where collective nouns can take the plural. It certainly reads fine to me. ReadingOldBoy (talk) 08:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Collective nouns can be taken as plural, but here it seems strange since the image shows a single team member kicking the ball. I think it would read better with the verb changed to singular. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Far better would be to restore the previous wording, changed in this ill-advised edit. I've restored the original wording, with a little clarification. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F362062436