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Forgive me if this is badly worded, this is my first time editing a talk page.

"The effects of child sexual abuse include depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety, propensity to re-victimization in adulthood, and physical injury to the child, among other problems."

There is an interesting book I am reading, Harmful to Minors, in it Judith Levine argues that sexuality, even involving children, is not by default "bad", and that it is the pressures and norms of society that may cause issues such as depressing and feelings of guilt. (Especially if the person in question is told they should "feel" like a victim.)

Obviously this has to do with sexual encounters involving consent and now things such as rape. But I feel that it is a good point. I recommend anyone who is up to it to read this book and perhaps add a section to this page. (I am no where near familiar enough with wikipedia to try editing such a delicate page in a way that would be useful.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.129.17.78 (talk) 03:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I have heard of this book as well. I should say up front that as a mental health provider my perspective is a little different than the general population. There are some issues to its inclusion in this article. Now, there is some truth to the fact that society does not always react to this particular issue in the healthiest way, and does not always perceive things very constructively. For example, society seems to lump together college students who have a one-night-stand with late teenagers, and middle aged men who kidnap and rape 8 year olds, calling the whole lot "pedophiles." This is of course absurd. Something that often goes undiscussed is that harm exists on a continuum, that is, it is variable based on age and other factors.

But here's the problem, you don't want to overemphasize this either. There have been instances where actual pedophiles (the clinical definition I mean) like to trumpet Harmful to Minors and other works such as the infamous Rind et al. to justify their actions, including clearly exploitative acts perpetrated on children under 10. With kids under a certain age, there is just no excusing things. For example: under a certain age, any sex no matter the circumstances causes physically measurable nerve damage that lasts a lifetime. Another problem is victims already have a hard time coming to terms what happened to them and suffer from distorted appraisal. Works such as these can have the unintended consequence of influencing victims to never seek help or justice because it causes them to doubt their feelings, even when the act was clearly a rape. A third problem is that Judith Levine is not any sort of medical or psychological expert. She is just an writer and, by her own admission, an anarchist. Now, like I said before, I "get" what she is trying to say, but my impression is that her work seems really to be about teenagers and not small children.Legitimus (talk) 16:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think you'd better read this book completely before commenting on it. By the way, though Judith Levine is just an author and journalist, she cited plenty of scholarly sources in Harmful to Minors, and some psychology or psychiatry experts highly agree with the book's viewpoint (see [1]). By the way. I think that claims that child sexual abuse should be renamed to adult-child sex and the difference of the effects of adult-child sex and adult-teen sex should be included in the article, as some studies mention them greatly, and news media like USA Today have re-stated these findings (see [2]. Please use Google Scholar and Google News to seek sources), so that the article can meet the NPOV policy.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The USA Today article makes the exact points I was trying make. They are talking about teens, not little children. Your other link was to Amazon.com, and the reviews are by amateurs, not experts. Further, on reading these reviews, they also seem to make my point: That people make too big a deal over statutory rape cases with teenagers. Frankly, your response confuses me; it appears you did not read my post at all or just a sentence or two.Legitimus (talk) 20:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Find Sherman A. Thompson's review. As a retired psychotherapist he is professional enough to review this book.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:26, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Texas State Board of Psychologists, there was never anyone named Sherman A. Thompson ever licensed in that state. The author of the review is a fraud, and this comes as no surprise given several major errors in his review that display a complete absence of any training in basic neurology.

This is all besides the point. Even Thompson's review indicates this book is all politics and societal critique. A worthy and admirable set of arguments, I agree, including inappropriate reactions from judicial and medical fields based on poor evidence that anything actually happened, or that an abusive act actually occured. You'll not get much argument from me there. But there is no science in this book purporting that sex with children is not harmful and is not abuse. That is a massive leap that many seem to make about this book, including pedophiles.Legitimus (talk) 18:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of people tend to associate child sexual abuse with the fact that certain abusers tend to remain unmarried and childless, such as in the recent clerical abuse scandal. But there is also research in the UK that shows that married men who have real jobs also take part in child abusing activities. This could probably be included as part of the sociological section which deals with the likelihood of abuse. [3][4][5] ADM (talk) 16:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes indeed. Groth and Birnbaum were some of the first to explore this aspect in their 1978 paper "Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons." This is mentioned briefly under Psychological aspects of offenders.Legitimus (talk) 19:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please be much more careful with sourcing. The first one linked seems acceptable the second two are certainly not, www.intothelight.org? Ugh. -- Banjeboi 12:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It might be a good thing if there were a separate entry on the phenomenon of female child sexual abuse, which continues to be a social taboo, because society generally expects child abusers to be male. This phenomenon has been covered in the press recently, which might give it some extra notoriety. [6][7][8][9] ADM (talk) 17:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Incest is not given the full impact it deserves in the court system. There has been no study undertaken on the long term impact of incest to the family and to the individual child victim. There is however an abundance of evidence that suggests that any individual who dares to speak out against incest in a family that predominantly supports incest by concealing it in denial (despite the tell tale physical scars of child victims) is all too often cast out of their family and subjected to defamatory attack by a multiplicity of others in the community and in various forms and with such force that it's as if the outspoken individual were themselves a pederast or convicted child sex offender. This is not what protecting children from child sexual abuse is supposed to be about.

Incest is just as prevalent in middle class Anglo-Saxon family's as it is in indigenous family's but according to the Anglo-Saxon heads of government incest in their ethnic group simply doesn't exist which is why there has been no study undertaken on the long term impact of incest to the family and to the individual child victim.MayqueenJane (talk) 10:46, 13 December 2009 (UTC)^[1][reply]

In fact, the definition itself is ambiguousnce in the West since they are some cases where parents of non-Western ancestry are accused of CSA for bathing with their children or a parent is deprived of parenting rights for asking whether feeling sexually excited is normal while breastfeeding, so to meet WP:NPOV and achieve Wikipedia's mission: summarise all reliable sources in good presentation, Wikipedians should add the definition controversy.--RekishiEJ (talk) 09:31, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source for these alleged occurrences? Even if you do, frankly that is a separate issue and more a matter of law. This article is about the raw concept of child sexual abuse.Legitimus (talk) 01:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this article also examines law aspect of child sexual abuse briefly. By the way, here are the sources for these occurrences: [10] Template:Zh icon and [11].— Preceding unsigned comment added by RekishiEJ (talk • contribs) 04:44, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of those are reliable sources for Wikipedia. The one in Chinese is a web discussion forum. The other is the website of a woman who claims she has been "sent by God to empower women, and to restore the worship of God as Mother". --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 06:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The one in Chinese is copied from a reliable Chinese newspaper.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:12, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We have no way of knowing whether that is true or not without the newspaper itself. Furthermore, you said that is Westerners who have this reaction. China is not Western. If such things really do happen in the West as you claim, surely you can provide a reliable Western source, such as from a medical journal, a court record, or a reputable American or European news source.Legitimus (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the source for the statement that a parent was deprived of parenting rights for asking whether feeling sexually excitd is normal during breastfeeding: [12].--RekishiEJ (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Plus [13] and [14].--RekishiEJ (talk) 17:44, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

AssociatedContent is a website that aggregates self-published articles, those articles are not reliable sources. What happened to Denise Perrigo is a sad testimony to lack of understanding on the part of many in the legal system who failed her, but it is unrelated to the topic of child sexual abuse and doesn't belong in this article. Also, it's just one anecdote and can't be used to make generalized statements. It's possible there might be a place for those concerns in the article on Laws regarding child sexual abuse, if bona-fide sources can be found that discuss misapplication of those laws. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 18:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]