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I made corrections to this page because there are facts missing or misinterpretation of sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yehudafievel (talk • contribs) 09:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, the massacre was by Irgun, if I am reading this correctly, and that is not Israel. It was, IMO, a terrorist group, that existed BEFORE the State of Israel was formed. And, this happened before the state of Israel was formed. If you want a category for Pre-Israel Atrocities Committed by Terrorist Groups, that would be more correct.Sposer (talk) 02:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everybody agrees it was perpetrated in the name of Israel. Creating a new category for "Pre-Israel Atrocities Committed by Terrorist Groups" in order to be more "correct" is IMO an exercise in sophistry. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very much the opposite. In fact, if you insist it was by Irgun and Lehi, it is the exact opposite of the Israeli government and system that followed. Category doesn't fit. It's also useless regardless. Amoruso (talk) 10:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You probably don't want to see Category:Terrorist attacks attributed to Palestinian militant groups renamed to "Terrorist attacks attributed to Pre-Palestinian militant groups" either. You can see where this leads. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Palestinians see themselves as Palestinians. There was no Israeli before Israel was created. There are Palestinians before Palestine is/was created. Do some reading on the difference between a Jew and an Israeli. Amoruso (talk) 10:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That difference is pretty obvious to me, and I don't understand why you see that as relevant, though it does tend to become overlooked sometimes. The Irgunites were more nationalist than any other Jews and certainly saw themselves as Israelis. Your technicality objection applies equally well to Palestinian militant groups, which is why this particular can of worms is best left unopened. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what your link has to do with the discussion. You demonstrate that you don't know the difference. Before Israel was created, it wasn't even clear that the country will be named Israel. So the Irgun members didn't see themselves as Israelis, for the simple reason this term didn't exist yet in modern times. So what you wrote is in fact nonsensical. Amoruso (talk) 11:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I have to spell it out, there are (IIRC) three instances of editors confusing the categories "Jews" and "Israelis" in that single section, which makes it a good study object. Again, your technicality objection is shot down by your very own reasoning. The Palestinian nation's future name is not yet known, so, by the same token, all categories and articles with "Palestinian" in the title would have to be considered incorrect. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are no instances of editors there confusing the categories Jews and Israelis. That is your misunderstanding. See article State of Palestine and the Palestine's convoy to the U.N. They chose the name of their proposed country already, and even if not, it's the name of their People, that they have chosen. Jews have chosen the name Jewish as the name of the people before May 15 1948. The fact that you don't know what's the name of the Peoples involved here shows that you can't comment on the section, you lack too much basic knowledge. Amoruso (talk) 12:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would advise you to 1) refrain from making personal remarks and 2) not underestimate my knowledge. As about the Jews/Israelis-confusion in the link I gave you, I count four instances: Jaakobou (twice; he did apologize though), you, and one anonymous editor. That is beside the point however.

By your reasoning, every instance of the word "Palestine" in a category or article pertaining to the time before the name was officially decided should be prefixed with a "pre-". Besides looking silly, it would obstruct the information seeker unnecessarily. The exact name of the still unproclaimed Israeli state is also immaterial — what matters is that the atrocity was perpetrated by people who sought to establish that state. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's not by my reasoning, that's your misunderstanding. Like explained to you, Palestinians are defined as such by themselves whether there's a country called Palestine or not. Israelis don't. They were called Jews. Cheers, Amoruso (talk) 14:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The unexpected but convincing pleading for a Category:Jewish atrocities aside, I think we have already reached consensus here (see below). MeteorMaker (talk) 22:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Refrain from personal attacks. Amoruso (talk) 23:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, any category (insert your nationality, religion, group) atrocities is a POV violation, since, as others have reminded me more than once, the people responsible for the heinous act consider themselves at war. So, by having a category called Palestinian Atrocities, Israeli Atrocities, German Atrocities, George Bush Atrocities of the English Language, you are creating a POV. They should all be stricken from Wiki IMO. If we need to have a category, call it Terrorist Atrocities, or something like that (although any terrorist act is an atrocity). So, what is the process for doing such a thing? Somebody help. Anybody who disagree with this idea is clearly trying to make political statements with such categories.Sposer (talk) 13:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Categories for deletion. There is a current discussion about this one. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On closer examination, I realize I was too narrowly focused on the word "Israeli" and overlooked the "atrocities" part — mainly due to the fact that Sposer did the same when he raised the question. I was under the assumption we were discussing the categorization of Irgun/Lehi as Israeli terrorist organizations. I agree that the category "Israeli atrocities" isn't vital, since it largely duplicates the Massacres in Palestine cat. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it's also a sub category of that. Amoruso (talk) 14:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shevashalosh, stop moving the article. You have to get consensus before moving. Imad marie (talk) 15:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reading the article as is (without Shevashalosh's changes), it appears that there is considerable question as to whether it was a massacre or not. The article needs work either way. The battle took place prior to the war itself, if the dates here are correct. Also, it needs to be made clear in the lede that the Jewish groups involved were not the regular forces, but rather militant groups like Irgun. Given the enormous controversy as to whether or not this was a massacre (I am not talking about numbers killed, but how they died, whether they were combatants or not, conflicting reports on who was in what Mosque, etc), suggests the "Battle" name makes more sense. However, the current edits go way too far and belittle claims of massacre and move the article from a neutral to slightly Arab POV (if it is called a massacre and that the controversy is not made clear as part of the lede) to an Israeli POV. I do not know enough about this subject to intelligently edit the article (outside of fixing little things), so I will stand aside, but the name change makes sense, with the article largely as it was, maybe with a few tweaks. Sposer (talk) 01:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of several problems is that "Deir Yassin battle" is a neologism. It gets fewer than 20 Google hits. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 01:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"Battle of Deir Yassin" gets another 42 Google hits. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 01:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I move-protected the article for 3 weeks. I have watchlisted this page, and if consensus is reached for a move before then, I will unprotect it. Thanks, J.delanoy^gabs_adds 01:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, although it depends on whether you put quotes around deir yassin battle or not. Without quotes, there are more google hits for battle. With quotes, there are a bit more than 100 for battle, and 16K+ for massacre. However, articles that question it being a massacre will use the popular name. In reality, IMO, this should be part of an article on Deir Yassin, and Deir Yassin Battle and Deir Yassin Massacre ought to both redirect there.The term "Deir Yassin Battle" does not sound right. It is infamous due to the purported massacre (by the way, I am not saying there wasn't a massacre there, as I am not up on that, I am just reflecting on the controversy), but if I was writing an article on the event, arguing that it wasn't a massacre, I would certainly refer it to its more common name at first. Something like: Deir Yassin: The Massacre That Never Happened. And, I would not term it the Deir Yassin Battle, but would rather discuss the battle that took place there. A very long way of saying that the google argument is not a particularly strong one. Sposer (talk) 01:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did not and do not have any opinion regarding either version of the article's content. When I moved the article earlier, I simply moved the article back, completely ignoring the content of the page. I moved it with an explanation that I hoped would prod Shevashalosh to talk about it before moving it again. After it became apparent that my comment was disregarded, I move-protected the page. Shevashalosh, I would appreciate it if you do not use edit summaries such as "moved to J.delanoy's version" in the future. I do not have a "version" of the content, I have no preference whatsoever in the matter. If you (either of you) continue to revert to your version of the content, I will either full-protect the page or temporarily block you (both of you) for edit-warring. The talk page is here for a reason. Use it. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 02:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The title of the article (whether it should be a "battle") was the subject of a heated discussion during July 2006, when there was an attempt at a vote. (Most of Archive 3 is about the name of the article.) It was discussed again in April 2007 and May 2007. The issue has been talked to death. Why does every new editor with an agenda get a fresh bite at the apple? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not necessarily arguing for changing name. Massacre is what is more current and popular, and that will attract the most hits. I think the lede needs to highlight that it was a battle too (which it does, but must make clear those deaths are not the issue), that there is at least some question as to whether it was a massacre or not. However, weight of evidence and opinion is still on massacre side it appears. So, let's just fix it up a bit. Like I said, I am not going to make changes, because I am not qualified to get into it, but please see lede suggestions below and maybe something along those lines, with Milstein in lede as noted in last comment) will work. Sposer (talk) 03:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sposer, As of - Google: massacre - 24,800, Battle - 20,900. Not much difference, though as I have said this isn't my argument. The word "battle" all of a sudden was eliminated, offcuarse, caus the title of the article was changed (from "battle" also), so the opening statement changed as well from, "A battle in which..were killed" - to " mamassacre of killing ..." - in order to fit the title accordinglly.

In this way, if you don't title it "battle" - then offcaurse - you need to eliminate the Jewish story line (Jews dead and wounded, as my new ref was deleted during the revisions) - caus the whole article wouldn't fit.

Then you basiclly end up for ever with the tag of: The neutrality of this article is disputed.

On the other hand, if you title it as "Battle", then, not only this is not NPOV title - but you can put both sides arguments within article itself- as I have recentlly edited: "though the battle took roots in the Palestinian culture as a masscare" (including both sides).

--Shevashalosh (talk) 04:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, The argument is not on "supposedlly" a masscre, but rather re-definig a "battle of war" , in which people got killed in to the disputive POV and a violation of that policy. --Shevashalosh (talk) 05:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the new lead I have brough from "Jewish virtual library" (and meanwhile have been deleted in revisions), the artircle, as of a year ago, defined this as "battle in wihich (so and so number) ... of villagres where killed".

It was also tagged as: "The neutrality of this article is disputed"

The word "Battle" has disapeared, and instead it has a conclusion in the opening statment that a "massacre has occured" (or how ever it is put there).

First this was a battle of war. This is how it is defined (first as of title).

second, in my editing I have included the fact that "though the battle took roots in the Palestinian culture as a massacre" (NPOV - including both sides).

So far, up to my recent edit, the Jewish side not only has been absent (jewish forces wounded, killed etc), but rather eliminated by eliminating the definition of "battle".

In my edit, I havn'nt basically changed the Story line, but rather balaned it and have added additional info (hence more lines written on Jewish side, along side the Arab story line).

This comes after a violation of NPOV policy, not only in what I have written in this message on the elimination of the "battle" defenition word, but rather violation of NPOV, just by the Title of "Massacre", in which, offcaurse people changed the content (such as eliminating the "battle" defenition)- to fit this accordingly !? - and as a resulit of all this you have a a tag of The neutrality of this article is disputed.

This means, the title can not be "massacre", if you wanna foliow neutral POV policy, - caus then you will have to determine the in the opening statment that a "masscare" has occured (didn't apear at list untill a year ago), and the folowing content of the article as well - while ignoring the Jewish side (Hence, deleting the wounded and killed Jews etc) - and you will forever will end with the tag of The neutrality of this article is disputed.

This whole article is a violation of NPOV policy, espesially in Tiltle and in opening statements (as it was tagged accordinglly) and must change.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 02:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are already sections of this page where other editors have begun to discuss of the title of article and its lede. It would be very helpful if you made your comments in the appropriate sections instead of starting a third section. Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I read the above, I just didn't understand or need to read this again. --Shevashalosh (talk) 02:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shevashalosh, check also the archives the article title has been discussed in depth. RomaC (talk) 03:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RomaC, in the condition of this currrent article, in which the basic defenition of "battle" was eliminated - I don't know how people based their judgements during (at list) - the last year - where the opening statment of "battle in which ...were killed" changed to "a masscare of killing of"...

Besides, there is a tag of NPOV - it is obvious there is still something wrong in it - and so I have tryed to balance it (not change the story line) and add additional info - line along the arab story (not deleting it), but was revised (including my ref of jews wounded and killed).

--Shevashalosh (talk) 05:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How's this:

The Deir Yassin massacre refers to the killing of between 107 and 120 villagers,[1], the estimate generally accepted by scholars,[2][3] during and possibly after the battle[4][5] at the village of Deir Yassin (also written as Dayr Yasin or Dir Yassin) near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine by militant Jewish forces between April 9 and April 11, 1948. Jewish forces suffered three casualties and 37 wounded. It occurred while Yishuv forces fought to break the siege of Jerusalem during the period of civil war that preceded the end of the Mandate.

Contemporary reports, originating apparently from a commanding officer in Jerusalem of one of the irregular forces involved (the Irgun), Mordechai Ra'anan[6], gave an initial estimate of 254 killed.[7] The size of the figure had a considerable impact on the conflict in creating panic and became a major cause of the 1948 Palestinian exodus.[7][8]

The incident was universally condemned at the time, including repudiations from the Haganah command and the Jewish Agency. However, controversy caused by later studies suggest that villagers killed may have been combatants and that no massacre occurred. The event was also relevant as it took place weeks before the official declaration of war in May 1948.[9] Sposer (talk) 01:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a source for this sentence?

However, controversy caused by later studies suggest that villagers killed may have been combatants and that no massacre occurred.

According to the article, "only the core IZL narrative differs from the Arab and the remaining Israeli narratives". — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 01:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Milstein, noted in the article, and I was looking earlier today where Morris also seemed to change his tune later, but I do not have these sources. I was just reflecting what was in the article already and in the Morris article on Wiki. However, I see that I misread the Morris piece. He did not recant on the Deir Yassin. The lede could replace Milstein for later studies.Sposer (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Morris didn't change his mind. As I stated a few month on this talk page, in his last book (published in April 2008), he is quite clear about that massacre. And all(*) historians, from all sides, talk about a massacre for Deir Yassin. There is (only) one historian Uri Milstein who questions this but only for the events during the fights, not the massacre after them that occured in the quarry.

Concerning the distinction between the battle and the massacre : this is true for all massacres of that war. Kfar Etzion massacre also occured after a battle and Hadassah medical convoy massacre even occured during a battle (4 days after Deir Yassin, so in the same context). There were about 30 massacres during the 1948 war. The only one I have in mind that didn't occur during or after a battle is the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre. Ceedjee (talk) 06:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ceedjee, Please read what I wrote above. I said that I misread Morris and that he never changed his mind. And, as I've said, I am not going to make changes, because I am not well-read enough on this. Just making suggestions for people to properly research. As for definition of massacre, it isn't a massacre if the deaths were part of the battle, but it is if after or before the battle, non-combatants are rounded up and killed. Deir Yassin, according to most historians, seems to fall into that category.Sposer (talk) 12:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sposer,

I replied just after your message but I was not answering specifically to you. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

About massacre's definition, that is not as simple. At Deir Yassin, it is claimed civilians were taken as targets while the other version is that some arab men tried to escape while dressed in women, reason why everybody was targeted or simply that it is complete fallacy... Ceedjee (talk) 13:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then you are basing conclusion (of title and opening statements) on speculations and of one side's POV, not the basic defenition of it. --Shevashalosh (talk) 15:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See this discussion : Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/About the use of the word massacre. Ceedjee (talk) 10:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The title is prejudice, and along with it's opening statment. there is a clear violation of NPOV by the prejudice Tiltle and the opening statment

I added addtional line on to article - not deleting anything, just adding along the "arab lines" - the "jewish lines" as well, but some how someone trys to shut my mouth not include the Jewish side of the story.

I want to add my "addtional lines" first (not deleting others, and then discuss the title. --Shevashalosh (talk) 05:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss your "additional lines" before adding or deleting anything. What exactly would you change?:Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 06:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to "delete" any content in body of the article, but rather "add on" the "Israeli lines", to be living "side by side" with the "Arabs line".

As for changes: The prejudice title should be change, to "Battle of deir yassin", as it is defined and widley known (other then arabs - see google) and rephrase the prejudice opening statement but do note in openong statement, that the arabs see this battle as a massacre, which is exaccly the reality of it, and thus, including both sides. Thank you --Shevashalosh (talk) 16:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Yoav Gelber, Propaganda as History - What really happened at Deir Yassin ? talks about that sujbect and refers several times to "Deir Yassin Battle". His conclusion is :

The massacre at Deir Yassin, if what happened in the village deserves this definition, was an almost inevitable outcome of circumstances – the nature of the combatants on both sides, their organization and location, level of training, deployment and mastery of command and control, the absence of proper military targets, the presence of a large number of civilians, and overarching exigencies and special stresses inherent in this kind of intra-communal warfare. Certainly, it was not the bloodiest massacre of the war. The killing of 240 Jews in Gush Etzion after their surrender, and 250 Arabs during the occupation of Lydda and its aftermath were more extensive by far.

Ceedjee (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Alan Dershowitz talk about "Deir Yassin massacre" in his book The case for Israel
• So does Israeli historian David Tal in his book "War of Palestine, 1948"

Ceedjee (talk) 17:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Battle is hardly the correct term...Attacking a civilian village is not a Battle...Maybe a title of "IZL and LHI run amok killing indiscriminately in Deir Yassin".....however "massacre" is also an overstatement... Deir Yassin Incident would be more appropriate....using Battle to describe 2 groups of undisciplined militia attacking a civilian village would get you laughed out of any Military Academy...Google gives 278 hits for Battle of Deir Yassin and 15,700 for Deir Yassin Massacre...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is how it is widely known - "battle" (see google). The title "massacre" is a prejudice arab pahrse, not else. You can't determine a title based on arab alligations and and arab phrases alone, against what this battle is known for other then arabs.

Surley, if terrorists attacks, or any other attacks come out of a villagers, then you must attack that villagers and their village serounding the road to Jerusalem -shooting at you, when you wanna get Jewish convoys heading towards Jerusalem to supply food and water to Jewsih population.

This was included in Operation Nachshon, to conduct a battle that to clear the road to Jerusalm, (and allocate the Jewish state territory, on half of the land, which arabs refused to recoginzes it's right to exist - already in 1948)

It is known to Jews and people other then arabs as "battle", and this is exaclly the reality, and by anycase, a prejudice title (and opening statemnet). "Masscare" known to arabs should be included within the body of the artice, not else.

By any case, while disscussing the prejudice title, I wanna add addtional line, living "side by side" (not deleting) the "arab lines". I can't find a problem in doing so - do you ? --Shevashalosh (talk) 20:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The title of this article has been debated ad nauseum. Please see my comments above concerning the archived discussions. There is no reason to discuss this again.

Please, can we discuss the proposed changes to the article.

Shevashalosh, I asked you what exactly you would like to change, and you didn't respond. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Reasoning for changing title now:

1) NPOV tag is placed,

2) The absence of the Jewish story - the absence of people complete knowlege of the facts, made them conclude this title (example, the word "battle" disapeared" during the course of time).

3) A prejudice title by any case (and opening ststement), that violates NPOV policy

Immidiate edit, for now:

A) addtional exsiting line in paragraph 2 of opening statement: The size of the figure had a considerable impact on the conflict in creating panic and became a major cause of the 1948 Palestinian exodus

that staes: + whereas the Jews perceived this exodus to be the flee of local arabs under the promise of neighboring arab states to invade and eliminate the exsiting Jewish community (The Yishuv) and the newlly emerging Jewish state.

B) adding additional line, to exsiting line in paragraph 3 of opening ststement:...it took place weeks before the official declaration of war in May 1948

that says: + The day Israel declared it's Independence.

and finally:

If I find anything else needed, I will post here, but this is for now,

After this immidiate edit, I want to continue the disscussions on NPOV violation of prejudice title and opening statement, but this is the immidiate edit I would like to add for now.

Shabazz ? --Shevashalosh (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A) I agree that the traditional Israeli narrative is that the Palestinians fled because the other Arab states said that they would be able to return home after the victory against the Jews. But what does that have to do with Deir Yassin?

B) Yes, the official declaration of war in May followed Israel's declaration of its independence. But again, what does that have to do with Deir Yassin?

Keep in mind, Shevashalosh, that this is an encyclopedia article about the April events in Deir Yassin. It's not a history lesson about the Arab-Israeli conflict of 1948. The article needs to stay focused on its subject. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, but the article does mention other events in context, later then April 1948, that fact the importance of it is that the battle took place before may 15, the day of the declration of war - so you need to add that the same day , was the day Israel declaired it's Independence.

Second, The article did find it in contecxt to mention that the battle and the allegdlly high number that were killed, caused panic to become 1948 Palestinian exodus (after), and so in the same context, you must add the fact the the Jewish community (the Yishuv), perceived this exodus as local arabs fleeing under the promise of neighbouring arab states to eliminate the Jewish community, the Yishuv, and the newlly emerging state.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shabazz ? --Shevashalosh (talk) 22:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I'm not the only editor whose opinion is important here. I just happen to be the only one here today.

Second, I still don't understand why "you need" to add that information. You're talking about introducing information that has nothing to do with Deir Yassin. The idea that the events at Deir Yassin contributed to the Palestinian exodus is cause and effect. The idea that Israelis believe the Palestinian exodus had other causes is unrelated to the subject of this article. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 23:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you have the cause and affect, then you must include full info about it, the jews saw this as caus and affect on eliminating them.

As for declration of war may 15, that is mentinded , the fact, that it was the day that Israel declaired it's independence is basiclly absent.

Shabazz ? --Shevashalosh (talk) 00:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]