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Criticism

I think the section on criticisme needs rewording. I think all political organizations are accused by their opponents or rivals of being "undemocratic" . We need a more precise characterization of the accusations if any. Something like :

"The centralized structure of the SWP, despite the existence of an annual delegate conference, is considered by some other Left groups as undemocratic. "

What do you think ? Johncmullen1960 11:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This also looks a bit weak to me. We could do with a bit more detail on who has made this criticism and perhaps quote it directly, then look for an SWP response to it. Warofdreams talk 01:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any substantiation available for the "largest party of the left" claim? Presumably this is actually Respect? MarkThomas 19:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Depends whether or not you consider Respect a.) a party, and b.) of the far left. Personally I would say 'no' on both points, in which case the 'largest party of the far left' claim applied to the SWP is probably true, though difficult to verify - and as such is probably best left out of the article. Guy Hatton 09:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since most SWP members are not in Respect, it's quite possible that Respect is smaller than the SWP. However, it clearly is a party, and on the far left. --Duncan 15:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which simply goes to demonstrate what I suspected already - that there will be many shades of opinion on this. Is Respect a party? It describes itself as a coalition, and as some of its constituent parts are parties in their own right, I think that's where the important distinction lies. As for 'far left', it's clearly not a revolutionary working-class organisation, hence not 'far left' in my book, but that's just my opinion. Guy Hatton 15:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If we review political party then Respect perhaps does qualify: it styles itself as a coalition, but its leaders and members refer to it as a party interchangably. Of course far left is troublesome, in so far as it's perjorative and rarely used to self-describe: perhaps you might not think that most organisations that are or were far left are revolutionary working-class organisations. But Respect's positions do align well with the EACL, in which it participates, and is a coalition of leftists. --Duncan 21:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As far as WP goes, a lot of these things are down to common perception - Respect appears to the public to be a party, even if internally it is considered some kind of coalition or front. I also don't particularly trust statements from most political parties, particularly those of a more doctrinaire disposition, about membership - they nearly always inflate such figures or put a positive gloss on them. There is no objective source on party memberships in the UK and one only needs to look at such figures claimed for Labour and the Tories to see what a quagmire they are. MarkThomas 07:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a section on practice, because it seems to me that the SWp is not only differentiated by its theories. Open recruitment, no permanent factions, and a central emphasis on publications are important elements of what the SWp actually do. Naturally each of these elements is criticized - in politics if you'r enot being criticized, it's because you're not doing anything ! Johncmullen1960 08:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Guy has recently deleted a para saying "The SWP support the contributions of totalitarian Soviet leader Vladimir Lenin to Marxist thought. They maintain that the revolution only became oppressive under the leadership of Joseph Stalin.[1]" I have to say that this appears to be correct - isn't it true that the SWP considers itself Marxist-Leninist but is anti-Stalin and pro-Trotsky in very general terms? Why the removal Guy? MarkThomas 16:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would imagine that there is a far more NPOV way to put this, whether Lenin was 'totalitarian' is part of the accusation the SWP's stance disputes.--JK the unwise 17:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If "totalitarian" means (according to Wikipedia) "the attempt to mobilize entire populations in support of the official state ideology, and the intolerance of activities which are not directed towards the goals of the state, entailing repression or state control of business, labour unions, churches or political parties." This appears to be an extremely accurate depiction of exactly what V.I. Ulyanov set out to do and did in high (self-appointed) office. In fact, it appears that JK yours is the POV, and an extremely minority and sectarian leftist POV at that. I would prefer that Wikipedia articles like this tell the truth about organisations. SWP supports Marxist-Leninism, which is a totalitarian and anti-western liberalism and anti-democratic model. Let's say so. MarkThomas 17:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As JK has already said, the application of the term 'totalitarian' is highly controversial. It is commonly deemed perjorative in regular usage, and hence in this context probably unencyclopedic. Unfortunately, the broader definition you quote is not, I think, how most people would interpret it. Even then, that is most certainly not what Lenin set out to achieve - whether or not it was what actually happened in the latter part of his leadership is another debate. Also, the term 'Marxism-Leninism' has a particular meaning amongst socialist organisations, and would never be applied to any party which claimed to belong to the Trotskyist tradition, as the SWP does. Lastly, I felt very strongly that the source citation was being grossly misused - the article in no way supported the claims being made.

Hope this clarifies my reasons for removing that paragraph. Guy Hatton 08:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe then you should "fix" the totalitarian article. We will await that with bated breath. :-) I think I see small piglets flying over. Totalitarianism isn't any more pejorative than saying "Leninist" and if we're being accurate we should say it. If the SWP suddenly took power in the UK, as is their dream, would we have democracy, or would we have Supreme Leader Rees (presumably in a job-share with Supreme Leader German!) and a Stasi-style "Industrial Brigade" to keep order, beat up the Tories, etc? The latter I suspect. But of course it's not totalitarian because it's Bronsteinism! Puh-leeze. MarkThomas 10:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yawn. Guy Hatton 11:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't want to discuss, don't revert things that don't happen to fit in with your extreme-left POV then. MarkThomas 11:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion I do - hence the explanation above. Inane sarcasm, on the other hand, gets short shrift. End of story. Guy Hatton 12:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]