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The articles you've written about Abdulrazak Gurnah's novels are great, nice work! — Mainly 13:37, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MainlyTwelve: Thank you! DanCherek deserves most of the credit for getting all these done, though. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 16:03, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ AleatoryPonderings Abdulrazak Gurnah’s wife is indeed Guyanese scholar, Denise de Claire’s Narain. For the reference to the Denise mentioned in the Guardian article (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/11/abdulrazak-gurnah-winning-nobel-prize-literature-zanzibar-priti-patel-racism) (https://twitter.com/olivesenior/status/1447643965310873609) Histohob (talk) 15:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Histohob: Twitter is not a reliable source and the Guardian article just says "Denise". That's not sufficient sourcing to add personal details to a WP:BLP. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for making a start on this. I've included some resources on Draft talk:Photography in Canada.--Ipigott (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Amazing! Thanks, Ipigott. If you have the inclination, feel free to work on the draft as well. I'll likely be adding to it in fits and starts over the next week or two. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 16:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Now you have a few sources to work on, you can probably put together something which can be moved to mainspace over the next week or two. Once it's there, I'll see what I can do to expand it. My own history of living in Canada is beginning to resemble that of the early photographers there - I left at the end of 1972 after spending five years in the Montreal area.--Ipigott (talk) 16:19, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me for the direct referencing. I'm sure you'll be able to upgrade to SFN later. As we are still in draft, I'll just continue to add a few interesting bits and pieces as I find them. Thanks also for the additions you have made yourself.--Ipigott (talk) 14:11, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No problem re ref formatting - I actually enjoy doing it. I was able to grab Early Photography in Canada from the library the other day, which I imagine has more daguerreotype details, among other bits to add. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you could put together a brief lead, the article could be moved to mainspace where we could encourage other editors to contribute to its enhancement. It might be useful to add a few illustrations for the other sections of the article. Perhaps you would like to select some yourself.--Ipigott (talk) 12:34, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Photography in Canada :) AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 13:15, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On 1 November 2021, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Pauline Bart, which you created and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 22:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Could you evaluate and perhaps change the page to Silvio Scaglia as , as explained in talk, there are no evidence for a name change? cheers Shantaram1 (talk) 21:31, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently I have conservative views on A7... thanks for the tag. Someone else beat me to closing the AfD. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 22:13, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Giraffer: I could have seen it going either way, tbh. Guess it depends on how liberally one interprets the credibility of a claim of significance. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:36, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Dene music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dene music until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Vizjim (talk) 08:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great work on turning that discussion around. I'll try to come back to offer some constructive assistance in improving the page in the next few days.Vizjim (talk) 07:00, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Vizjim: Of course! It's a tough topic. Thanks for your constructive participation and nomination—all too often nominators view AfD as a contest and not an opportunity to improve the encyclopedia. I'll see if I can take a look at the article in Recherches amérindiennes au Québec I put in further reading. One of the few journals that's not fully available on JSTOR or equivalents. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 13:54, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, I've been a low-level editor on and off here since about 2003. Go far enough back in my history and you'll find me doing all that AfD warring - I've learned my lesson since then... Vizjim (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On 12 November 2021, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Lee Maracle, which you nominated, expanded and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 06:28, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great work on the Lee Maracle page, too. Thank you for devoting such attention to these important figures. VickiZ (talk) 20:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, the issue needs to be brought to a wider audience, i.e. Request for Comment, which I have no idea how to do. Those who frequent the page control the narrative. SusunW (talk) 21:21, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SusunW, I agree, but tbh I really do not have the patience to run a RfC right now (not that I took you to be suggesting that, just letting you know). It's actually not super hard: WP:RFCOPEN lists the administrative steps. The real challenge is coming up with a good question and option(s) to !vote on. The simpler, the better—people tend to default to criticizing the RfC as opposed to engaging with it if the question is badly written.

I think the best first step is to draft a proposed revision of MOS:ETHNICITY in userspace that a bunch of us can agree on as reasonable beforehand. Then, we can start a RfC at WT:MOS with a question like "Should MOS:ETHNICITY be revised as follows?", citing the numerous, inconclusive discussions on that portion of the MoS. Technically you're not supposed to do a RfC until local options for consensus have been satisfied, but since (1) ETHNICITY has been discussed to death already in popular fora; and (2) this isn't an issue with a specific article, but a proposed change to the MoS, I think it would be justified to set one up when/as the current discussion dies down. Frankly, I'm just pleased we were able to reach consensus on my proposed change to Lee Maracle, despite the obvious differences in opinion. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:05, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with everything you said. I just don't understand the emphasis on one arbitrary characteristic supposedly being "defining". I mean, how else are you supposed to describe Rosika Schwimmer other than as sources do? She belonged to no state. I have yet to find any source that described Elena Arizmendi Mejía as anything other than Mexican, but she also was likely stateless. There's an editor who routinely takes out African American even in the case where every single source we have calls a biographical subject that. To me it is simply illogical that this one guide forces one to ignore the sources. SusunW (talk) 22:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SusunW, not to mention the fact that in the vast majority of cases nationality is never directly stated. No biography of Obama begins "Barack Obama is an American politician", because that's just not what people in the world usually say. So there's also an OR concern underneath all of this.

I can understand objections to "African American" because (the thought is) the term implies that the normative American is white or at least not Black. Regardless, I think we can and should make meaningful distinctions between, on the one hand, ancestry and ethnicity, and nationality on the other. The MoS is bizarre on this point: MOS:ETHNICITY says the country, region, or territory … where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident. This arbitrarily excludes people who are nationals of places without defined nation-states while alluding to the sensible idea that we should care about nationality as such, precisely because it can be important to a person's biography.

My totally intuitive sense about the policy is that it is intended to stop editors from adding relatively trivial details about ancestry to people's articles. One could describe me as an "American of Scottish, English, and Russian ancestry", but one shouldn't, because that would be silly—and, were I to be notable, my notability would not be related to my ancestry in any straightforward way. I've seen this happen, and I think it's annoying and unencyclopedic. To the extent that ETHNICITY precludes that kind of writing, I support it. But obviously it does a lot of other objectionable things, as we are both well aware.

If we are going to try and revise it, it might be worth thinking about what the point of any such policy is. Is it to prevent people from "claiming" bio subjects based on their heritage, as I think someone recently said in one of these discussions? Is it to allude to the basic reasons for a person's notability? Is it simply to give context? I don't know, but presumably the project should. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:04, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The 2 things I've seen most often in these discussions is that it was written to prevent edit warring over claims of heritage and for context. In general, I don't think context is one-dimensional, like everything, it is a spectrum, with multiple dimensions. And yes, describing me in terms of my heritage would be silly, what shaped me is that I grew up in the American south during the Civil Rights era, had family members of varied ethnicities, and have lived abroad for more than two decades. I travel on one passport and have a green card from another nation. Picking one or the other "place" to define where I belong would be impossible for me (and just plain unethical for someone other than me to decide). I think when we write a proposal we need to stick with following sources, because I absolutely agree the way it stands (especially for many women) is that an assertion of nationality is OR. SusunW (talk) 23:24, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - an appeal to "context", without … er … context … is not helpful. Who decides that nation-states and only nation-states provide the requisite context? And if this really was designed to prevent edit warring, it has clearly failed. Also agree that an emphasis on sources is necessary—as with everything else here. Not clear why we have this one gaping exception to the general motto of "follow the sources, wherever they lead". AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On 14 November 2021, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Phyllis Webb, which you nominated and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. TJMSmith (talk) 00:45, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your diligent work refining and updating the Phyllis Webb page. VickiZ (talk) 20:23, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

VickiZ, thanks! It was great to learn more about these two important writers. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 21:57, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On 17 November 2021, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Ed Bullins, which you nominated and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 23:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On 18 November 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Rose Lee Maphis, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Rose Lee Maphis and her husband Joe Maphis, known as Mr. and Mrs. Country Music, helped develop the Bakersfield sound? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Rose Lee Maphis. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Rose Lee Maphis), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On 22 November 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Pauline Bart, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that according to American sociologist Pauline Bart, "everything is data, but data isn't everything"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Pauline Bart. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Pauline Bart), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:03, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On 23 November 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Whitey Schafer, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that photographer Whitey Schafer (portrait of Barbara Stanwyck pictured) thought canned sex was better than cold cream? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Whitey Schafer. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Whitey Schafer), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:02, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 12,518 views (1,013.2 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of November 2021 – nice work!

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 01:27, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Theleekycauldron Thanks :) Looks like my clickbait worked … AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 01:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ah, temptation—i have named thee and thy name is woman. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 01:34, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On 23 November 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Carol Publishing Group, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Carol Publishing Group distributed a suicide manual? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Carol Publishing Group. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Carol Publishing Group), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks for the extra sources! Now I have learned about George Frederick Kunz and Kunzite. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:33, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, thanks, I could use a beer :) I also love the title: Rings for the finger, from the earliest known times, to the present, with full descriptions of the origin, early making, materials, the archaeology, history, for affection, for love, for engagement, for wedding, commemorative, mourning, etc. Really covers all the bases. A ring for all seasons. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:19, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I did what I could do. Her death date is truly elusive, but I tried The Times, The Guardian, newspaperarchive.com, newspapers.com, and even the California Newspaper Collection. Looks to me like she was sued and won a case about the development project in 1947 and then abandoned the project around 1953? But I didn't add that info as without being able to see the last source, it might change the analysis. (Would be fascinating to know if any of her development still exists.) My guess is that she returned to England at that time, but I don't know. Lots of stuff in hathtrust.org if you want to weed through it. SusunW (talk) 20:08, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@SusunW: I remain in awe of your research abilities.

The United States Tax Court case is on Westlaw. The case is Browne v Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 1953 WL 10503 (11 June 1953). It refers to the "May Isabel Campbell-Johnston Trust", which was "liquidated" in 1946 and owned properties in Redondo, California (presumably Redondo Beach), among other places. That must be the trust referred to in Geiselman v Campbell-Johnston, 80 Cal App.2d 492, the case you linked above. I am guessing that this is a real estate investment trust (REIT), although I didn't know that vehicle was used in the 1940s. The Tax Court case says the trust owned a "war housing" project. Perhaps the sort of housing described in doi:10.2307/3158861, but I'm not sure.

The details: Truman H. Browne was a 1/4 beneficiary of the REIT. The case was about whether Browne appropriately treated the sale of his portion as a capital gain on his federal return. As it turns out, it was not a capital gain.

As far as this relates to Fisk: it's tempting to think that the 1946 liquidation was related to a change in her life circumstances (death? moving abroad?) but I don't see any particular evidence of that in these cases. Basically, the trust's assets were sold off in 1946 and Truman thought he could get a federal income tax discount on the proceeds. Perhaps Truman was related to May somehow? Or he could have just been a business associate. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:01, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I love researching. It's like a scavenger hunt that I've practiced for decades. It's so bloody frustrating, (and really hard to do from Mexico) but glad you were able to find more info about it. I know from trying to find out more, that Redondo Beach was formerly called Redondo. I suspect that they needed housing for all the service personnel that went to the area during World War II. Would be interesting to know more about her role, but I just don't know if we will be able to find anything. The piece on her son that I added says he lived part time in London and part time in California. My guess is she did too. Can't figure out why he added "Gray" to his name either. His 1960 obit wasn't the least bit helpful. SusunW (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@SusunW: The scavenger hunt analogy is great—I'll use that the next time someone looks at me strange when I say I edit Wikipedia. I feel the same way: it's like finding a gold nugget when you discover some fact you've been searching for. I'm trying to make the most of my law school/university subscriptions while I still have them—legal databases especially are outrageously expensive so I'm glad I could do this search while I still have access. I'm interested in this "war housing" thing too—the 1953 court case refers to it as if it's a known quantity/technical term, and we don't have war housing. It's frustrating but also so gratifying when one research hole turns into several. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:15, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, all research libraries are expensive. It's crazy, but I am glad we have access to things through the WP Library, as there aren't public facilities here and I'd be lost. I still however, end up sending lots of e-mails to authors of articles. In general, the women academics always send me what I ask if they will share and an extra article or two. Sometimes I don't even get a response from the men. But, back to war housing, when I was writing Miriam Soljak, she put pressure on the Auckland government to build family housing during the war because the military had requisitioned all the available housing. So it occurs to me that is yet another type of "war housing". (I have always maintained that historic figures want to be found. Too many times I have searched for info everywhere I can think of and then it just falls in my path.) SusunW (talk) 15:36, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes I forget that this is the free encyclopedia and that the "free" part is important. It's deeply frustrating how much is paywalled and how copyright, as opposed to the interest of people in knowing things, is allowed to rule the day. I've had mixed luck myself with emails to scholars and research institutions. My favourite success story is a set of photos for Lorraine Monk which the Ford Library sent over lickety-split. This war housing thing is now piquing my interest; will take a look this weekend. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 04:24, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Those photos are great! My best story, got help from an academic while working on my 1st featured article. She not only sent me her material but referred me to another academic who sent me stuff. She asked a ton of questions about WiR and how she might incorporate our project into her course curricula. I put her in touch with Rosie. Now 2 years later, this. An article on war housing could also bring in the aftermath, i.e. redlining, population shifts, etc.[1],[2][3][4][5] This is interesting in that it postulates how housing came to be seen as a reward for war service. I wonder if someone from Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history would have interest in the topic of war housing? It's not his period, but perhaps Gog the Mild knows something about (or knows someone who would be interested in developing) the topic? SusunW (talk) 15:18, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]