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@Absolutiva: you added the following paragraph...

To reduce redundancy, syllabic characters (kana) should not be included in some titles using Roman script, especially for international or stylistic purposes.

This seems to me to be spectacularly opaque; what does it mean? Can you give an example? Imaginatorium (talk) 07:14, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are numerous examples of Japanese words/titles exists like Superfly, J-pop, rather than using kana characters (スーパーフライ, ジェーポップ) because it's a Japanese pronunciation. Unlike Chinese characters (WP:NOCHARACTERS) should not be used for ease of reading and to reduce redundancy. Absolutiva 07:31, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to niggle, but neither sentence in your reply is actually grammatical; do you want to take the time to make them grammatical so I do not have to puzzle out what you are trying to say. (The second is particularly mysterious.) Imaginatorium (talk) 07:49, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What is the rational behind the style guide instruction:

If the linked article does include the Japanese script, Japanese characters are unnecessary in the original article, unless they appear in the context of a list […], such as […] Tōkaidō Main Line#Station list. In those cases, having several Japanese words appear together in context may be beneficial to some readers, and the script should not be deleted.

What is the benefit to readers? The vast majority of readers on English Wikipedia are not able to decipher the Japanese characters, which is why nearly all stations in Tokyo have English translations and have now adopted a language agnostic station code system.

I’d like to propose that this style guide instruction be removed, to be handled on a case by case basis, or modified to read “However, they may be appropriate in the context of a list” and remove the station list example. RickyCourtney (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The benefit is that the Japanese name is the unambiguous actual name, while romanizations are subjective and can vary by source and often time. For example, 羽田空港駅 can and is variously romanized as Narita Airport station, Narita-kuko station, etc. 日本橋駅 in Tokyo is Nihombashi Station, 日本橋駅 (same characters!) in Osaka is Nippombashi Station; this is even one of the canonical examples of variants for Hepburn romanization.

And since Japanese place names in particular use strange and unpredictable kanji readings (Japanese place names), it's useful to be able to quickly reference the names of all stations for comparison against Japanese sources. This is impossible if the names are hidden away inside other articles that you need to click through to.

Finally, what's the benefit to removing the characters? I totally understand and agree with not having them in prose, where they're disruptive and take up space, but this is not the case in tables. Asamboi (talk) 03:05, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the advantages being described, but they primarily benefit editors or readers already fluent in Japanese. For most English Wikipedia readers, Japanese characters convey no additional information and simply add visual clutter.

The MOS is generally meant to serve reader comprehension and accessibility, not to support off-wiki source comparison or resolve editorial ambiguities that readers never encounter. For that reason, I question whether this guidance is appropriate.

As stated, the rationale explains why Japanese script may be useful to specialists, but it does not demonstrate a concrete benefit to the general English-language readership—an important distinction when setting guidance intended to be broadly applied. RickyCourtney (talk) 06:12, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Quite the contrary, many readers of Japanese topics do understand Japanese, and it's quite the demonstration of chutzpah on your part to demand on the Japanese MOS page that we remove Japanese script from Japanese topics.

Put another way: to 99% of Wikipedia readers, Riemannian manifold is unintelligible gobbledegook. (If you can make it past the third paragraph, I salute you.) Should we remove all the math markup like because it "simply adds visual clutter" if you don't eat diffeomorphisms for breakfast? Asamboi (talk) 09:28, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@RickyCourtney: just checking on where we landed here. Asamboi (talk) 10:04, 31 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I gave my opinion, you gave yours. That’s where we are. RickyCourtney (talk) 23:25, 2 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Do you intend to continue removing Japanese names from tables in Japanese articles? Asamboi (talk) 02:03, 3 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I’d like to hear opinions from other editors. RickyCourtney (talk) 02:10, 3 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's useful to have both the English/romaji name and the Japanese names in the context of a list. Case in point, the glossary of sumo terms example; I can understand written Japanese on a rather advanced level, but I don't know much about sumo. So, having those terms in both scripts is really handy so as to not have to go back and forth between the article and a dictionary. Just my two cents. Masatami (let's talk!) 17:33, 3 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Masatami and Asamboi. I see no reason why articles about Japanese topics shouldn't include Japanese names in tables. Further, "most readers" of Japanese topics is usually going to be wildly different than "most readers" of math-related topics or of ancient literature-related topics; we cannot (and should not) apply broad brushstrokes to everything. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 20:43, 5 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

In light of these opinions, the guidance stays. Thanks for the replies. RickyCourtney (talk) 23:53, 15 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

A concern was raised regarding the edits made to the Fairy Tail season 1 episode transliterations of the numbers using the ruby markers on both mine and SubZeroSilver (talk · contribs)'s talk pages here and myself (which has since been removed).

That said, what should we do about the romanization of numbers in general? sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:23, 17 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, many thanks for making a section covering this you two! I'm interested in getting a definitive answer regarding this! We weren't able to find an exact sentence or bullet list covering this topic on the main MOS article and if we do get an answer, I'd recommend refining it to explicitly mention this somewhere if it doesn't exist. --GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 06:25, 17 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Unless otherwise noted in furigana (such as with episode 53), numbers in Japanese titles are always read as the number would be pronounced in Japanese, so the transliteration should reflect that. Is there a specific episode where people are being confused? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:33, 17 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The specific issue we are talking about is whether or not we should ruby gloss Arabic numbers over with hiragana to make it clear that the number being presented is not read out in English on English Wikipedia, somewhat similar in manner to how some kanji titles are glossed over in English loanwords using katakana. There doesn't appear to be any specific MOS guidance on this that I am aware of, and all we are looking for is a definitive answer on how to treat this going forward. --GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 02:12, 18 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Unless the number is being read in some strange or unusual way (as in the episode 53 example I gave), Arabic numerals should not have any furigana/ruby. As this is fairly standard, I don't know that we need any specific rules to address it. If people insist on having a rule, I propose this: "Unless they are being read in an unusual way, Arabic numerals in titles should not have any furigana/ruby." It's straightforward and simple. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:33, 18 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks for the response! One last thing: What about Arabic numbers from a Japanese native title intentionally spoken in another language (e.i. English)? GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 00:42, 19 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

That would be considered an unusual pronunciation in Japanese, so if the author chooses to pronounce them differently than is standard in Japanese, it's extremely likely they would include furigana telling all the Japanese readers how to read/pronounce it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:44, 19 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, that basically covers everything for me! Many thanks! GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 04:16, 19 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The MOS guidance basically says "Do not use 'Ruby' (furigana), unless specifically discussing its use". In other words, do not use a standard feature of Japanese writing in English, because it is not understood by most readers. So I see no reason there should be any 'Ruby' in the Fairy Tale article at all. If 宇宙船 is marked to be read スペースシップ, the transliteration should show that, and it might help to add a note about these fanciful readings.

The answer to your specific question is very, very obviously, No. You have:

• TranslitTitle = Jūgo-bun

Well, this is wrong; it should be

• TranslitTitle = Jūgo-fun

Then you have:

• NativeTitle = 15（じゅうご）分

And you say "Not sure how this isn't anything but unconventional." I am lost for words. What do you think is the conventional reading of 15分? And who is the furigana supposed to help? Imaginatorium (talk) 05:15, 18 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Um, English Wikipedia readers? I am lost for words too, that you would read my previous reply in this section and not put 2-and-2 together. Also, a simple straightforward answer would have covered this. Instead, you went out of your way put me on a hot burner for just wanting to test the boundaries of improving an article and trying to understand the Japanese language. A lack of knowledge does not mean you have to respond in such tone, especially if such user (me, in this instance) is actively trying to learn and improve. --GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 05:30, 18 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I came across as rude. In particular, when I said "You have: [wrong romanisation]" I meant the generic "you" - I was not suggesting you were responsible for this particular error.

(For clarity, I enclose quoted Japanese text in [].)

The Fairy tale edit comment was: "Removing ruby for numbers, keeping for unconventional readings".

You reverted with the comment: "Not sure how this isn't anything but unconventional.", which I think is a quadruple negative. I understood it to mean that you think that the number readings are unconventional (but I think that would have been a triple negative). So please clarify: are you saying that reading [15分] as jūgo-fun is conventional or unconventional?

One step at a time... Imaginatorium (talk) 13:53, 18 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Let me get one thing clear: I understand it is the conventional reading for Japanese natives, but it isn't in English (obviously). Thus, my belief when making that initial description (perhaps in hindsight, a quite arrogant one) was that it should be clarified using ruby glossing, but I now understand from your original reply that such Arabic numeral glossing is pointless for English readers if its assumed that the Arabic numerals will be spoken in the Japanese language anyways. It's like you said, the transliteration already establishes that. --GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 17:30, 18 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Now regarding the Jūgo-bun Romanization error, you were right in that assumption and that is my doing from a previous edit. Google Translate was wrong, but I can't actually read native Japanese and properly vet its accuracy. Rest assure though, I always try my best. Sometimes stuff slips through the cracks. --GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 17:40, 18 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Simple mistakes like this a no real problem at all. But if you add things which you are not sure of, it is a good idea to ask at the Japan project for someone to take a look and check. Imaginatorium (talk) 17:18, 19 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of those fanciful readings, which the Fairy Tail pages have a lot of, shall I go ahead and replace all the ruby templates with footnotes explaining the kanji and romaji differences? For example, the episode 27 title "The Two Dragon Slayers" (二人の滅竜魔導士, Futari no Doragon Sureiyā) would have a note that reads:

• The given kanji 滅竜魔導士, read normally as metsuryū madōshi, is glossed in furigana as ドラゴンスレイヤー, or "dragon slayer".

Or something to this effect. User:SubZeroSilver (talk) 16:32, 19 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a good idea - one (lengthy) footnote should first explain what is going on: writing one word (宇宙船) in Chinese characters, but instead of the normal reading, putting a gloss indicating that it should be read as though a loan from English or another language, such as "spaceship". Then a table could list all of the examples, with the kanji, usual reading, "fanciful" reading, and meaning or notes on meaning if required. I think it is quite difficult to explain this really briefly, because it is such a strange idea to someone only knowing about phonetic writing systems. But perhaps there is an article on furigana to link to... Imaginatorium (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I think "fanciful readings" would be covered under the "unusual readings" as discussed above. This is when using ruby/furigana is extremely useful. Going into a long explanation could push into original research territory unless there's a reliable source discussing it somewhere. Maybe something like "Unless they are being read in an unusual way, Arabic numerals and kanji in titles should not have any furigana/ruby." would cover that. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:10, 19 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I feel I have said this many times already: "This is when using ruby/furigana is extremely useful." In WP:en, using ruby/furigana is never effective, because it is not understood by English readers, unless they happen to read Japanese. That is why, as I understand it, the MOS guidance is "do not use Ruby, unless discussing Ruby itself" (or words to that effect). Imaginatorium (talk) 04:26, 20 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

You could make the same argument about any Japanese (or any other non-Latin-character language) used on enwiki. Using it once in a title is going to be useful to the subset of people who can read Japanese. That's the only place it should be being used anyway. Once the Japanese has been introduced, there's no need to use it again in the same article, and the same applies to furigana. It should only be used to indicate unusual pronunciations, and only the one time when the other Japanese is used, too. Limiting it to those few instances, it's not going to come up all that often. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:41, 20 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there is Furigana if needed. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:12, 19 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]