Talk:St Peter's Cathedral, Likoma

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 14:11, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

St. Peter's Cathedral pictured c. 1909
St. Peter's Cathedral pictured c. 1909
  • Source: "It is about four and one half miles long and two and one half miles wide. Likoma and neighboring Chizumulu, seven miles farther west, are the only significant islands in Lake Malawi" (page 85)... "Together with its chapel, library, chapter house and cloisters, the building's area exceeded some 37,000 square feet" (page 93)... "Even in the 1920s, the cathedral was believed to be 'the single largest building in Central Africa' (Dale 1925, 195)". (pages 93-94) From The Steamer Parish, by Charles Good: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Steamer_Parish/8y8XSs9xIEIC
  • ALT1 ... that when St Peter's Cathedral was built on tiny Likoma Island, it was believed to be the largest building in Central Africa?
    • Reviewed:
    • Comment: An alternative color image is available at .
Created by Dclemens1971 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Dclemens1971 (talk) 01:22, 31 March 2025 (UTC).[reply]


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article meets expansion and length criteria. All sources are fine, a few more wouldn't hurt though. Earwig picks up one paragraph that needs a bit more rephrasing, but it does pass, please do rephrase this one section. I fixed a small grammar issue with the hook. The historical image is nice. Please expand a bit more if you're able to make completely sure it passes the expansion requirement, its very close to the limit. John Cummings (talk) 09:41, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Dclemens1971 and John Cummings: The current hook is 195 characters long and thus very close to the 200-character limit. Can hook be trimmed? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:29, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@John Cummings and Narutolovehinata5: Thanks for the review! I tried to trim slightly but the wiki markup for superscript still takes up characters. This is two characters shorter: "that when the 3,400 m2 St Peter's Cathedral was built on tiny Likoma Island, just 18 km2 in Lake Malawi, it was believed to be the largest building in Central Africa?" I also looked at the Copvio Detector and everything it flagged was inside of three short quotations and thus should be in compliance with MOS:QUOT, but let me know if there was something specific you saw that wasn't in quotation marks. Dclemens1971 (talk) 12:44, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That is still far too long. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:49, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Narutolovehinata5: The interestingness of the hook, to me, is in emphasizing the mismatch between the large size of the building and the small size of the island. Obviously we could trim the hook by eliminating the references to the sizes of the island and building, but I do think it loses a bit of the punch. The alternative would be ... that when St Peter's Cathedral was built on tiny Likoma Island in Lake Malawi, it was believed to be the largest building in Central Africa?, which is 140 characters. I will leave to you and @John Cummings: to decide if that is superior to the version that includes size figures. Whatever you decide is fine with me! Dclemens1971 (talk) 12:56, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dclemens1971 sorry I missed this, what do you think about... that when the 3,400m² St Peter's Cathedral was built on the tiny, 18km² Likoma Island, it was believed to be the largest building in Central Africa? (please excuse the lack of formatting). Also Narutolovehinata5 is it ok to use these abreviations for square meters at km in DYK? John Cummings (talk)

John Cummings OK by me! Dclemens1971 (talk) 20:36, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Dclemens1971 great, can you add it as the hook and ping me when done? John Cummings (talk) 20:48, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
John Cummings Done! Dclemens1971 (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much Dclemens1971, Narutolovehinata5 I believe we are done? Is there anything else I need to press to approve this? John Cummings (talk) 09:34, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I actually think leaving out the figures would be better since they make the hook shorter and less distracting. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:35, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Narutolovehinata5 sorry to not be clear, I meant is there anything else I need to technically do to approve the nomination? John Cummings (talk) 09:42, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not the reviewer, you are, so if everything looks good on your end and you've checked all of the DYK criteria, the work is that. Having said that, I'd advise going with only the shorter version and not the one with figures for reasons I said above. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:26, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for your help Narutolovehinata5, I really appreciate it. Honestly I don't have a strong opinion on including the numbers and they don't use up a lot of characters, Dclemens1971 what is your preference? John Cummings (talk) 11:22, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

John Cummings I'm fine either way. Dclemens1971 (talk) 12:44, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

OK, lets just go with the units included, it only adds a few characters and the size of the building is impressive :) John Cummings (talk) 17:47, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Or we could just leave it to the promoter. From what I recall, it's actually rather uncommon for building hooks to include the figures unless the figures themselves were essential to the hook fact (and this arguably isn't). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:42, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
OK, works for me :) John Cummings (talk) 18:29, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Dclemens1971 This was pulled from the queue per Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors#Errors in "Did you know ..." under Next-but-one DYK. SL93 (talk) 15:03, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, "believed to be" doesn't meet the definition of WP:WEASEL here since that's the exact line from the source supplied above: "Even in the 1920s, the cathedral was believed to be 'the single largest building in Central Africa' (Dale 1925, 195)". Is there no way to save this? @Amakuru: @RoySmith: There was a shorter ALT hook offered that did not refer to the numbers: ...that when St Peter's Cathedral was built on tiny Likoma Island in Lake Malawi, it was believed to be the largest building in Central Africa? Dclemens1971 (talk) 15:12, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd definitely go with the shorter version (Dclemens1971: it is convention at DYK to set off all suggested alternates in the "* ALTx:" style to make them easier to see and give them unique names to refer to later). As for the "East Africa" vs "Central Africa" part, I'm not too worried about that. It's a direct quote from the source, and we generally follow the source's lead. For all we know, in the 1920's, the terms "East Africa" and "Central Africa" may have had different definitions, or maybe no exact definitions at all. RoySmith (talk) 15:28, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not at all obvious from what's written who "believed" it to be the largest. At the very least, per WP:INTEXT, this needs an attribution.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:36, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
ALT2... the mortar for St Peter's Cathedral (pictured) in Malawi was made from soil formed by compacted termite mounds? Source: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Steamer_Parish/8y8XSs9xIEIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=termite%20mound
ALT3 ...St Peter's Cathedral in Malawi has a double-ended apsidal design reminiscent of Carolingian and Ottonian churches in Europe? Source: https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/8214946/The_Architecture_of_the_Universities_Mission_to_Central_Africa_Developing_a_Vernacular_Tradition_in_the_Anglican_MIssion_Field_1861_1909.pdf
What do you think? Dclemens1971 (talk) 17:03, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I like ALT1 the best. Can we go with that? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:30, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can approve ALT1, but can I get an excerpt of the termite mound fact? The link you posted here isn't working. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:34, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Narutolovehinata5, Set with 'mortar' prepared from the compacted soil of termite mounds, the cathedral measures 320 feet long, 85 feet wide from transept to transept, and 45 feet along the ridge.. This what you are looking for? I was able to view this at the Google Books link just now. Dclemens1971 (talk) 03:10, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't loading for me earlier, but that should work. To clarify, there already was an ALT1, so I've renumbered the two new hooks as ALT2 (formerly ALT1) and ALT3 (formerly ALT2). I am only approving ALT2. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:28, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review

Passed. —Kusma (talk) 09:39, 29 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:St Peter's Cathedral, Likoma/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Dclemens1971 (talk · contribs) 19:54, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 07:38, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]


Will take this one. —Kusma (talk) 07:38, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Kusma for the comments! I will get to them early this week. Dclemens1971 (talk) 17:21, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Content and prose review

I will comment on anything I notice, but not all of my comments will be strictly related to the GA criteria, so not everything needs to be actioned. Feel free to push back if you think I am asking too much, and please tell me when I am wrong.

  • Lead seems quite short, with only very little about architecture. Suggest expanding. checkY
  • History: slightly more context for the UMCA and Livingstone ("British") would be beneficial checkY
  • Similarly, a sentence about the status of Malawi and its colonial history would help (or a colonial era map). checkY
  • So Smythies was the bishop of Zanzibar? That is indeed very far away. But the trip is not "overland" only because Zanzibar is an island?
  • Construction: "By 1914, Likoma was home to 2,000 indigenous Christians. In the 1920s, it was believed to be the largest single building in Central Africa." Perhaps repeat "cathedral" because the "it" could refer to the "home" Likoma. checkY
  • Later history: not sure that "These shifts made Likoma more remote" is strictly true; certainly Likoma was as remote as ever, just now at the edge of the diocese instead of somewhere in the middle? checkY Clarified
  • Mzuzu is on the Malawian mainland (west shore of the lake)? checkY Yes, clarified
  • Architecture: would be nice to use {{convert}} to show the dimensions also in metric. checkY
  • According to Bremner, "There was a regime of spatial and sexual demarcation as at Christ Church, Zanzibar, including separate entrances for men and women." I think the separate entrances are surprising and would merit a mention.

First read through done. —Kusma (talk) 08:20, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source spotchecks

Numbering from Special:PermanentLink/1296174591.

  • 1: ok, but perhaps date the statement "as of 2016" since who knows what other cathedrals are being built elsewhere. checkY
  • 2a: nothing about Livingstone or the abortive attempt here? checkY sources/page numbers added for thes claims
  • 2d/7: ok, but the bishop isn't technically mentioned (perhaps implied). checkY added page number
  • 3: I see nothing about raiders or easy steamer access.
  • 4a: could not access. Could you quote what supports the raiders and steamer access? checkY As work on the mainland had been found to be subjected to much disturbance from raiders, the Island of Likoma was now chosen for the headquarters of the mission....it has proved to be an excellent choice and affords a good harbour for the steamers.
  • 8a/b: ok. nice modern source
  • 11: source has the bishop aiming two spend two months at Likoma, but we need to be careful not to get into WP:CLOP here checkY
  • 12: ok but could have a page number (9) checkY
  • 13: the first page has a nice explanation of the background of Livingstone and the UMCA. Content looks fine.

Spot checks done, some minor issues. —Kusma (talk) 09:03, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

General comments and GA criteria

  • Prose is generally up to standard, minor comments above.
  • Lead could be expanded a little. No major MoS concerns.
  • Looking at the infobox, the clergy are unsourced.
  • References layout is fine.
  • A little bit more on the current use (for example, references for the clergy and some comments about their use of the cathedral) would be nice. Otherwise we have all major topics covered, if a bit shallowly (architecture section is rather basic compared to most other churches).
  • One thing that seems to be missing is the towers collapsing in the 1960s? (Not sure how good the source is, but it seems to cite references)
    • I didn't use that source when writing the article because it's a self-published source from the late Donald Arden, although it is indeed a good story. I tried to validate the story in secondary sources but I couldn't find any. If you think this is a case where we can use an SPS, I'm happy to add a paragraph based on Arden's memoirs, just let me know Dclemens1971 (talk) 23:26, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think we could get away with something attributed like "the bishop Donald Arden recalled that parts of the building collapsed in the 1960s and were rebuilt" cited to the SPS. He certainly does point towards some sources if you really want to dive into it. I don't know whether the “History of Likoma Island 1800 to 2016” he mentions is any good, and I don't know if Arden used it much, but he does cite Ecclesia, the local church newsletter/magazine/something, which is somewhat available if you happen to live in Chicago or Toronto or have friends who do or who read WP:RX. Potentially there are also some Malawian Wikipedians. Anyway, I'd be happy with one sentence mentioning it, attributed and cited to Donald Arden's memories. —Kusma (talk) 12:54, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Focus is fine; I enjoyed reading about the early episcopal history.
  • I think this is neutral; in any case I can't see any dissenting voices (though perhaps there are some in anti-colonial literature in other languages?)
  • Stability is fine.
  • Image review: licensing is fine. Images are appropriate, captions work. A modern image of the inside would be desirable.

Review done! A few things to do; the question of the towers collapsing is the only one that doesn't look super quick. —Kusma (talk) 09:16, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Response from page creator

Thanks for the detailed review Kusma! I have replied to all your comments for improvement. Let me know if you'd like me to use the self-published Arden source on the 1960s tower collapse or if you see anything else that needs work. Dclemens1971 (talk) 23:26, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Dclemens1971: see comments above, we are pretty much there. —Kusma (talk) 12:54, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Kusma You are correct; I'd misread the Bremner source on the separate entrances. I added that to the article. I also added a couple lines about the 1960s-1970s rebuilding and rededication attributed to Arden. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:03, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Dclemens1971: All fine then, though I would wish for direct references for the current clergy. —Kusma (talk) 09:39, 29 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:St_Peter%27s_Cathedral,_Likoma