Talk:Bloody Christmas (1945)

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Proposed changes to the article

Hello. I believe that this article has contained FALSE INFORMATION. I’m trying to add some facts, academic sources. And, it appears that on Wikipedia there is a censorship of the academicc facts. 77.28.47.16 (talk) 15:35, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the facts I'm trying to add:

The Bloody Christmas (Bulgarian: Кървава Коледа, Kărvava Koleda; Macedonian: Крвава Коледа, Krvava Koleda) or the Bloody Bozhik (Bulgarian: Кървав Божик, Kărvav Bozhik; Macedonian: Крвав Божиќ, Krvav Božiḱ) was a campaign in which at least 140 recorded Macedonian citizens were killed by the Yugoslav communist authorities in the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Events took place in January 7, 1945 and the next several months.[1] Thousands of others who retained their pro-Bulgarian sympathies and Macedonian national separatists were victims of repression, as a result.[2][3][4][5][6]

And, the third paragraph:

On the other hand, according to the Macedonian historiography and some Bulgarian historians like Stefan Detchev, the Mutiny of the Skopje Fortress, and the Rebellion of Štip, in January 1945, was a deed of Macedonian nationalists. They were Macedonian national patriots, and soldiers who had previously fought against the German-Bulgarian Nazi occupiers, and who were later against the new Yugoslav politics towards Macedonia, as well. [7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.47.16 (talk) 10:36, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Bechev, Dimitar (2009) Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia. Scarecrow Press. p.287. ISBN 0810855658
  2. ^ Poulton, Hugh (2000) Who Are the Macedonians?. C. Hurst & Co. p.118. ISBN 1850655340
  3. ^ „Настаните на Скопското Кале на 7 јануари 1945 година - Документи“, Институт за национална историја, Скопје, 1997 г.
  4. ^ „Настаните на 7 јануари 1945 во артилереските бригади во Скопје" - Зборник со материјали од научниот собир посветен на Главниот штаб на НОВ и ПОМ, 1941-1945, МАНУ, Скопје, 1997, стр. 113-123.
  5. ^ „Јануарскиот масакар и вистината за него", дел 1, „Македонско време", бр. 32 за 1997, стр. 35-39.; „Јануарскиот масакар и вистината за него", дел 2, „Македонско време", бр. 33, за 1997, стр. 30-35.
  6. ^ „Јануарските настани на Скопското кале - 1945", Зборник на документи, издание на Архивот на Македонија, Скопје, 1997, стр. 298.
  7. ^ Stefan Dechev: "The Macedonian Bloody Christmas - Truths, Half-truths and Lies” (Radio Free Europe in Bulggarian language)
  • Your claims of censorship, and threats to go the press are not going to help you here. If the sources are reliable, and support your contentions, then the changes will be made, regardless of threats. The problem is that this is English Wikipedia, and you have provided non-English sources. While this is definitely allowed, it makes it extremely difficult to check your sources and their reliability. When the issues have a strong ethnic or nationalistic aspect to them, there's always the possibility that the sources provided are not neutral, but hew to an ethnic/nationalistic point of view. How can we determine what is going on under these circumstances?
    Are there no English-language sources you can provide? Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:48, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I will be polite. And I'll try to provide English sources. But, you say: When the issues have a strong ethnic or nationalistic aspect to them, there's always the possibility that the sources provided are not neutral. Than, in the first sentence, should be noted that the victims were Macedonian citizens or people who lived in the People's Republic of Macedonia. I assure you, not all the victims are Bulgarian nationalists and Nazi collaborators. And, it will be quite neutral formulation... And, it is a good start. 77.28.47.16 (talk) 16:34, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The IP is definitely trying to provoke the public after the creation of the article on the Law for the Protection of Macedonian National Honor, which irritated the North Macedonian editors, probably from the group called WIKIPEDIA WARRIORS: THE NEW FRONT LINES IN THE BATTLE FOR MACEDONIA. Their webinar against me is available here. In this case, an obvious attempt is made to mix 2 different events that occurred at approximately the same time. One is the confrontation between the Yugoslav communist authorities and the Bulgarians in then Yugoslav Macedonia which led to the creation of a special anti-Bulgarian court and law. The other is the crackdown on a military rebellion by Macedonian soldiers in Skopje who did not want to fight for the new Yugoslav authorities. More info on this event is available at the end of the article Gotse Delchev Brigade. The reason for these military revolts was that Serbs and Montenegrins were appointed as new commanders in these units. These Serbian and Montenegrin officers addressed them with the words: "Southern Serbs" or "damned Bulgarians". Otherwise, there are many sources for Bloody Christmas as an anti-Bulgarian event. For example: The most poignant example of Communist Party of Macedonia excess was Bloody Christmas: a series of pro-Bulgarian Macedonian purges that started in January 1945. For more see: James Horncastle, The Macedonian Slavs in the Greek Civil War, 1944–1949, Rowman & Littlefield, 2019, ISBN 1498585051, on p. 107, etc. Jingiby (talk) 18:53, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

5,000 killed in several days, etc.

Please, provide sources for these extraordinary claims. Jingiby (talk) 16:54, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Kaiseredit, please, provide reliable sources about ethnic cleansing. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 17:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article it self says 4,700 so I rounded it up since we do not have exact numbers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaiseredit (talk • contribs) 17:07, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Between 1945 and 1947. Jingiby (talk) 17:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New content

Kkapidan, I went with a part that Detchev himself highlighted in the source. Plus it is a misrepresentation of his arguments to write that he argued that it was a myth, when he did not use the term at all. It is not how the term is used in academia anyway. I think it is better to present it in quote format rather than paraphrase due to original research issues. However, your version is not even paraphrasing, but a personal invention. StephenMacky1 (talk) 07:22, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Jingiby, delete the part for now and let's discuss it on the talk page since there is a dispute about the content. I prefer the highlighted quote to avoid cherrypicking and paraphrasing, as well as original research. StephenMacky1 (talk) 08:12, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. My proposal below:
However there were also repressions against Macedonian autonomists, anti‑communists, and opponents of Belgrade. Their main function was to reinforce the Yugoslav control and consolidate the Macedonian national project. Because of that, the Bulgarian historian Stefan Dechev emphasises that the Bulgarian narrative misrepresented all victims as Bulgarians.[1] On the other hand, according to Dechev, Belgrade's support of the crackdown on its political opponents, and its intervention by the constructing of the new Macedonian alphabet and language on anti-Bulgarian basis at that time, as well as other hushed-up events in today North Macedonia, obviously need a debate of today's Macedonian society.[2]Jingiby (talk) 08:16, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That version is problematic because of using an opinion piece for facts per WP:RSOPINION. Another issue, like Kkapidan's version, is that it gives undue weight to the views of a single person. As for the other source, he does not mention the event there. StephenMacky1 (talk) 10:15, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
KKapidan's version was rather misinterpretation of Dechev's opinion. Jingiby (talk) 10:20, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, about the "it is a misrepresentation of his arguments to write that he argued that it was a myth", Detchev wrote: "На фона пък на преброяванията на населението, с които разполагаме, 23 000 убити в Охридско и 150 000 изпратени в затворите са фантазии, които дори не заслужават коментар." or with English translation: "Against the background of the population censuses we have, 23,000 killed in the Ohrid region and 150,000 sent to prisons are fantasies that do not even deserve comment." I wrote it as myth because it is in more neutral tone than fantasy.
I squeezed the content as much as I can to avoid putting big content for a single claim, however it can be tweaked to fit better, but not even more shortened to avoid lack of context.
I also disagree with User:Jingiby 's edit because again, it is completely lacking the full context and NPOV. Kkapidan (talk) 13:01, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but he does not consider the event as a myth and admits that killings occurred. In that line, he is disputing the number of casualties claimed by other authors. Even Horncastle who wrote about "Bloody Christmas" does not say that it occurred on Christmas, but just gave January 1945 as the date. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:12, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My proposal:
According to Bulgarian sources, between 1945 and 1946 over 4,700 Bulgarians were massacred or went missing.[3] As a result of the purge, up to 100,000 people were deported, displaced, imprisoned, persecuted or sent to concentration camps in Yugoslavia.[4][notes 1] However, the Bulgarian historian Stefan Detchev has challenged these figures, dismissing them as "fantasies that don't even deserve a comment". He claims that murders without court and sentencing happened and that Bulgarian authors often count among the victims not only Bulgarians but also Macedonian nationalists who opposed sending troops to the Srem Front or sought solutions to the Macedonian question outside Yugoslavia. It is overlooked that some of those killed had ties to the partisan movement against Bulgarian rule, while many were simply anti‑communists or wealthy individuals targeted by the new regime. Later, Bulgarian historiography similarly re‑labels persecuted ethnic Macedonians as "repressed Bulgarians". The same tactic is applied to prisoners in Idrizovo and Goli Otok, where most were Macedonian nationalists or communists opposed to Tito, not ethnic Bulgarians. He also concludes that it was mainly a purge of pro‑Bulgarian and autonomist figures, intended to reinforce the pro‑Yugoslav character of the Macedonian project, but not a decisive effort to erase Bulgarian identity or impose Macedonian ethnicity.[5] Kkapidan (talk) 13:34, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It still gives undue weight to an opinion piece. Detchev's source also cannot be used to dispute those figures because he only covers 1945 and not the period between 1945 and 1946, while also disputing the figure of over 100,000 people imprisoned. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:59, 28 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I reject Kkapidan's proposal because it is focused on some extreme Bulgarian views that are not discussed in this article and are out of its scope as a whole. Dechev's article itself is based on a television commentary show in which these events were commented on, but it is not the subject of this article. Kkapidan's proposal is also lacking the full context and is a bit POV-ish. For example Dechev clearly states that many of them were Bulgarians, while KKapidan's idea is to push here the Yugoslav agenda on some people with pro-Bulgarian orientation, etc., check here, please. By the way, it seems to me that recently some edits of KKapidan have become increasingly one-sided and even he has "cited" facts that are completely missing from the cited sources as this "fact", for example. Also, there are even a factual mistakes in Dechev's claims. The idea that these events do not happen on Christmas (25-27 December) does not take into account the fact that at that time the Christmas was celebrated in the old style, i.e. from January 7 to 9th. Bulgarian Orthodox Church adopted the New Julian calendar (new style) for fixed holidays in 1968, resulting in a discrepancy of 13 days with the Julian calendar (old style).Jingiby (talk) 06:00, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is no error there. Pretty sure he means the 7 January date. In North Macedonia, it is still celebrated on 7 January, which is probably why he did not feel the need to specify. StephenMacky1 (talk) 09:13, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The main events, known as the Macedonian Bloody Christmas, took place between January 7 and 9, 1945. The Christmas holiday itself lasts 3 days. Jingiby (talk) 10:43, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but it is still not mid+January like he argues. StephenMacky1 (talk) 11:07, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As you yourself have noted, Dechev only claims it. But this is simply not correct. Jingiby (talk) 11:23, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You mentioned the edit where I replaced "of Bulgarian descent" with "pro-Bulgarian orientation". I cited that because of the provided source that was there before, not because of Detchev. Kkapidan (talk) 11:32, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In the main events, per official documents, there were also Serbs from Belgrade that got sentenced to death, which does not correlate to Bulgarian claims. Later, most of those that were took before court for the events on January 7th were released. Kkapidan (talk) 11:35, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, correction about previously cited source is not Yugoslav agenda. It is you pushing Bulgarian POV in the article. The source does not state that they are of "Macedonian Bulgarian descent" but only "pro-Bulgarian". Being pro-Bulgarian does not equal to being of Bulgarian descent.
Also, about the topic on "Macedonians in Albania", it was my mistake because I squeezed 4 pages as much as I could to fit in 2-3 sentences, and I missed to mention "when asked" before "have always". Kkapidan (talk) 11:23, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What Dechev wrote is currently quoted in the article, and not by me. The quote does not support your claim, KKapidan. Jingiby (talk) 11:28, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You mentioned the edit where I replaced "of Bulgarian descent" with "pro-Bulgarian orientation". I cited that because of the provided source that was there before, not because of Detchev.
Your claim: For example Dechev clearly states that many of them were Bulgarians, while KKapidan's idea is to push here the Yugoslav agenda on some people with pro-Bulgarian orientation, etc., check here, please. Kkapidan (talk) 11:43, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Detchev, Stefan (January 17, 2020). "About the Comintern and Macedonia. That's right, but not exactly: "Macedonian Bloody Christmas" – truths, half-truths and lies; Why is all this done?". Free Europe (in Bulgarian).
  2. ^ Стефан Дечев: Меморандумът отрича признаването на независимостта на Македония. Marginalia, 04.10.2020.
  3. ^ Stoyan Raychevski (2005). The Genocide Against Bulgarians in the 20th Century. Bulgarian Bestseller. p. 105.
  4. ^ Rae, Heather (2002) State Identities and the Homogenisation of Peoples. Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press. p. 277. ISBN 052179708X
  5. ^ Detchev, Stefan (January 17, 2020). "About the Comintern and Macedonia. That's right, but not exactly: "Macedonian Bloody Christmas" – truths, half-truths and lies; Why is all this done?". Free Europe (in Bulgarian).


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