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I propose deleting the extensive further reading section. It unnecessarily lengthens the article and adds little. We have hundreds of references in the article - my view is, if it's an important enough source, we should cite it in the body of the article. Furthermore, for a topic this extensive, it is difficult to curate an authoritative "further reading list" given the multiplicity of views and constant new publications.

Are there other views on this matter? JArthur1984 (talk) 18:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. My revision numbered 1307709218 was undid by @Remsense.

What is a vapid gossip? My information was sourced from reliable sources.

"China has reportedly gained access to classified U.S. military technology on multiple occasions, according to U.S. media and intelligence sources. In the early 1990s, U.S. officials alleged that China obtained American-made Stinger missiles through Pakistan, which had originally received them for distribution to Afghan Mujahideen during the Soviet–Afghan War. The acquisition was believed to have enabled China to reverse-engineer the technology or develop electronic countermeasures. In 2011, following the U.S. raid that killed Osama bin Laden, China was suspected of examining the wreckage of a stealth-modified Black Hawk helicopter that crashed during the operation. While U.S. forces attempted to destroy the aircraft with explosives, the tail section—featuring an unusually advanced design—remained largely intact, having landed on a wall surrounding the compound. Pakistan reportedly removed the tail and, amid heightened diplomatic tensions, allowed China to study it before returning it to the United States after several weeks. Reports citing U.S. sources suggested that Chinese officials had “probably” examined the remains. Analysts noted the incident highlighted China’s close defense ties with Pakistan. Former U.S. counter-terrorism advisor Richard Clarke stated that any U.S. stealth technology shared by Pakistan to China would have been perceived as a “welcome gift” by Beijing. In 2021, a stealth variant of China’s Z-20 helicopter, described by observers as a "Black Hawk clone," was revealed in concept form."

The following articles indicate that US had to indulge in tough diplomacy for at lease three weeks to get hold of the tail that was left behind.

Credible sources from US Intel community were also cited by the news orgs themselves. Of course, they had to keep some details anonymous.

Three weeks of diplomacy:

https://www.twz.com/40853/stealthy-variant-of-chinas-z-20-black-hawk-clone-emerges-in-concept-model-form

Other two important sources:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-05-08-mn-1923-story.html (This article on Stingers is from 90s and pretty sure it meets the criteria on the reliable/perennial list)

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-05-08-mn-1923-story.html

Please keep in mind that I forgot to add template on edit underway but I have more content to add. Hence the restoration. Please discuss why it should not be included? We can, of course, trim the content in phases. Ritwik Deuba (talk) 07:39, 25 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And now there is an additional paragraph. The information is directly sourced from The Office of Special Investigations. I believe it is a primary source too. Directly US government stating what had transpired earlier.

https://www.osi.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/2350807/cyber-espionage-for-the-chinese-government/

Now, referring to previous edit, I had read all three articles. A former US counter-terrorism advisor even remarked on it, adding to the credibility. Please note that, it is not WP:Opinion. Thanks. Ritwik Deuba (talk) 07:47, 25 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the thing. Encyclopedia articles are required to be of finite length, and are meant to be surveys of a topic not the endless morass encompassing it. trim many of the recent additions back. to ensure everyone's aware, there was a banner atop the article making clear it is likely too long vis a vis site guidelines. i am not sure why the sole impulse remains to creep this article ever closer to 30k words. it's a big topic, but that's a poor excuse and a dereliction to our readers.

I recommend reading or at least skimming WP:ARTICLESIZE and WP:NOT, both site policy. This article reads like a collation of every moderately-sized news story involving interactions between the two governments. It's frankly unreadable. Remsense 🌈 论 08:19, 25 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To be blunt: I will recommend (and will be attempting) to cut out far more than those few paragraphs. That tag has been there and rightly so—now, this article is 26k words long. Hard limits are wholly counterproductive, but 15k seems like a worthwhile target heuristically based on experience. Unless the community consensus that established the above policies means nearly nothing for this specific article, which I don't see any argument for, this is the obviously correct editorial stance on the macroscopic level: let's try to slim down to a useful article, not blot out the map–territory relationship.Remsense 🌈 论 08:20, 25 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. I faced this exact issue on another article in July. However, there, the contents were so big and had such importance that it all warranted a page split. However, I am still waiting on that. As far as this article is concerned, yeah. Maybe the map-territory relationship does apply given that template on the top. Now, if we are to trim it, we have to ensure that none of the citations are lost and all important details (including names and sources), internal links, and quotes, are retained. This in particular is not a large topic either and an independent page on the same would be a stub. Trimming appears to be the only viable solution but we will have to do it carefully. Thank you for a quick response! Ritwik Deuba (talk) 08:43, 25 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is one simple thing we can do to make the article a bit shorter. We have a section: Korean war, and Main article: Korean War. First we make sure that all information that is in our section is in the main article, and then we simply write a very short summary of Korean war in this article. Next, Vietnam war. Same procedure. Opioid epidemic. Same procedure. In this way, this article will be shorter, there will be less overlap between the sections here and the main articles, and no good information will be lost. What do you think? Lova Falk (talk) 09:28, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, I now see that "Main" when it comes to Korea and Vietnam not are true "main"s. "Main article", as I understand it, is about the same matter as a section is. So it was not a good idea. Lova Falk (talk) 12:36, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

PS. There was some overlap between History of China–United States relations and the beginning of this article. Now the history article is not too long, so I cut paragraphs from this article and pasted them into the History article. Lova Falk (talk) 10:56, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

More than 8000 bytes removed from this article. 😄 Lova Falk (talk) 06:17, 22 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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I saw from the comments above that there are editors who agree that this article is too long. I also read User:JArthur1984 proposal to delete the Further reading section. I think that will not reduce the prose word count as given by Wikipedia's standard tool, but it's a good idea in my opinion. I decided to boldly copy the Further reading section here in the talk page and delete it from the article. If this was a bad idea on my part, please revert my edits. AwerDiWeGo (talk) 10:49, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

AwerDiWeGo Well done! Lova Falk (talk) 15:58, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Noting my support for this descision, the list was getting much too long... But on the other hand its hard to fault those making additions becuase there is such a deep textual well here... Perhaps a dedicated "Works about China–United States relations" might come around at some point Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:01, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Burt, Sally. "The Ambassador, the General, and the President: FDR's mismanagement of interdepartmental relations in wartime China." Journal of American-East Asian Relations 19.3-4 (2012): 288–310.
• Chang, Gordon H. Fateful Ties: A History of America's Preoccupation with China. (Harvard UP, 2015). excerpt
• Cohen, Warren I. America's Response to China: A History of Sino-American Relations (5th ed. 2010) online
• Dulles, Foster Rhea. China and America: The Story of Their Relations Since 1784 (1981), general survey online
• Fairbank, John King. The United States and China (4th ed. Harvard UP, 1976). online
• Green, Michael J. By more than providence: Grand strategy and American power in the Asia Pacific since 1783 (Columbia UP, 2017). online; 725 pp.; comprehensive scholarly survey.
• Hunt, Michael H. "Americans in the China Market: Economic Opportunities and Economic Nationalism, 1890s-1931." Business History Review 51.3 (1977): 277–307. online
• Jackson, Carl T. "The Influence of Asia upon American Thought: A Bibliographical Essay." American Studies International 22#1 (1984), pp. 3–31, online covers China, India & Japan
• Matray, James I. ed. East Asia and the United States: An Encyclopedia of relations since 1784 (2 vol. Greenwood, 2002). excerpt v 2
• Pomfret, John. The Beautiful Country and the Middle Kingdom: America and China, 1776 to the Present (2016) review
• Schaller, Michael. The United States and China: Into the Twenty-First Century 4th ed 2015)
• Song, Yuwu, ed. Encyclopedia of Chinese-American Relations (McFarland, 2006)
• Spence, Jonathan D. To Change China: Western Advisers in China (1980) excerpt
• Spence, Jonathan. "Western Perceptions of China from the Late Sixteenth Century to the Present" in Paul S. Ropp, ed.Heritage of China: Contemporary Perspectives on Chinese Civilization (1990) excerpts
• Sutter, Robert G. Historical Dictionary of United States-China Relations (2005).
• Varg, Paul A. "Sino-American Relations Past and Present." Diplomatic History 4.2 (1980): 101–112. online
• Wang, Dong. The United States and China: A History from the Eighteenth Century to the Present (2013)
• Westad, Odd Arne. Decisive encounters: the Chinese civil war, 1946-1950 (Stanford University Press, 2003). excerpt

• Blackwill, Robert D., and Richard Fontaine. Lost Decade: The US Pivot to Asia and the Rise of Chinese Power (Oxford University Press, 2024) covers Clinton to Biden years; online reviews of this book.
• Blanchard, Jean-Marc F., and Simon Shen, eds. Conflict and Cooperation in Sino-US Relations: Change and Continuity, Causes and Cures (Routledge, 2015)
• Brazinsky, Gregg A. Winning the Third World: Sino-American Rivalry during the Cold War (U of North Carolina Press, 2017); four online reviews & author response Archived 13 May 2018 at the Wayback Machine
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• Del Rosso, Stephen J. Ask the Experts: How to Stabilize U.S.-China Relations online
• Doshi, Rush. The Long Game: China's Grand Strategy to Displace American Order (Oxford UP, 2021) online review
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• Foot, Rosemary. The practice of power: US relations with China since 1949 (Oxford UP, 1995). online
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• Foot, Rosemary; Walter, Andrew (2012). China, the United States, and Global Order. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521725194.
• Fravel, M. Taylor. Active Defense: China's Military Strategy since 1949 (Princeton UP, 2019) online reviews
• Friedberg, Aaron L. (2011). A Contest for Supremacy: China, America, and the Struggle for Mastery in Asia. W.W. Norton. ISBN 9780393068283.
• Garson, Robert. "The Road to Tiananmen Square: The United States and China, 1979–1989". Journal of Oriental Studies. ISSN 0022-331X (1992) 30#1/2 pp. 119–135
• Garver, John W.
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• Haddick, Robert. Fire on the Water: China, America, and the Future of the Pacific (2nd ed. Naval Institute Press, 2022). online review
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AwerDiWeGo (talk) 10:49, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@The Account 2: "Since 2024, Xinjiang has featured less prominently in relations between the U.S. and China." doesn't seem to be supported by the given source. Am I missing something? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:46, 10 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The source said that "The annual human rights report has in recent years echoed that position and said the genocide is ongoing, but Xinjiang has featured less prominently in direct contacts between U.S. and Chinese officials." which I interpreted as "featured less prominently in relations between the U.S. and China", but it I don't have strong feelings about adjusting or removing that sentence if you think it's unnecessary. I just felt like it's a bit of a useful info as US does seem to have mentioned Xinjiang (and human rights in general) less compared to other topics recently. The Account 2 (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The source isn't from 2025, its from 2024 and it says "in recent years" so even if it was from 2025 "since 2024" wouldn't be supported. I think what we can say is "From 2021 to 2024, ..." given the rest of the article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:11, 10 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I agree with you. Maybe "as of 2024" could work as well? The Account 2 (talk) 07:35, 11 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect Sino-American has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2026 January 4 § Sino-American until a consensus is reached. A1Cafel (talk) 14:25, 4 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

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