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Provided evidence of the support of the Turkish military forces (for artillery fire large caliber) and the purchase oil off the terrorists.)

Jump up ^ https://russian.rt.com/article/145541 Jump up ^ http://lifenews.ru/news/182947 Jump up ^ http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1579521/video/

With the recent advancements on Turkish border (liberation of 20 Turkmen villages and Çobanbey town and border crossing) and in Aleppo (gaining of a vicinity from YPG) by Syrian Turkmen Brigades of the Syrian Turkmen Assembly (part of Syrian Opposition), I think Syrian Turkmen Brigades can be showed on the infobox. Sputnik, Anadolu Agency, Haber7, Al Jazeera

Turkmens, Syrian Turkmen Assembly and Syrian Turkmen Brigades "must" be mentioned in the Syrian Opposition part since they are currently the driving opposition force in North Aleppo and center of the Turkey's Syria policy. - Berkaysnklf (talk) 7 April 2016, 18:12 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.75.198.117 (talk)

Deserts make up most of the land in Eastern and South Eastern Syria. No armed group can control deserts, there's simply nothing there to control. Perhaps there's a fortress here and there, or a town by a river, and these could be marked as under control of whoever controls, but the area around them shouldn't. Tahrir al-Sham should be colored blue and sparsely populated deserts white.

Hello all:

I'm not familiar with editing on wikipedia and so I apologize to you all in advance if I'm posting incorrectly.

I noticed that some of the newer information on this page is suspect, and some citations don't substantiate the claims.

For example, the claim attached to citation # 595: "Since February 2017, the affiliated group Tahrir al-Sham has turned away from straight battlefield-war to suicide bomb attacks on (Shiite) civilians, in Homs and Damascus.595"

This sentence gave me pause because it's already worded in a suspicious way. I became stuck on it as I wondered to myself, what happened in February 2017? Why would they choose to "turn away" from battlefield-war? And how is battlefield-war defined in this context? Are we contending that each civilian casualty inflicted by this group since February has been a Shiite? No Alawite?

Anyway, I clicked the citation and the hyperlink led me to a wikipedia article about a magazine. There was literally no information about war.

Whether the above-quoted sentence is factual is automatically made irrelevant when the citation fails to point to a credible source. This is disappointing because, if it the statement is true, it's information worth including.

In summation, I highly recommend that each of the citations added since 2017 be reviewed to ensure they include proper links.

Thank you kindly,

T.A.

IbnNabl97205 (talk) 16:23, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted that particular claim, as it is clearly not true, and as the previous comment says poorly sourced. Can you point to any other dubious claims? There have been a lot of edits in 2017!BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:45, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted this paragraph, recently added. I think it is written in a very non-neutral and un-encyclopedic way, and it is sourced to a YouTube video. If people think this is worth including in the article, can they edit it better and paste back in:

As of 9 June 2017, the Russian Federation army, working alongside its Syrian ally, had seen relative success in reconciling opposing sides and had procured signed agreements with some 1,571 representatives of the inhabited areas in Syria, where they had agreed to cease from hostilities against the government of Syria under Bashar al-Assad, thereby restoring a semblance of law and order.Russia Insider: Military Briefing (Current Situation) Some 219 groups in Syria who had formerly been suspected of involvement in armed resistance had agreed to the terms of the ceasefire.Russia Insider: Military Briefing (Current Situation)

BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:16, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we can write:

"In an effort to restore law and order, the Russian Federation army claims to have 'signed agreements with some 1,571 representatives of the inhabited areas in Syria,' where they have agreed to cease all hostilities against the Syrian government. [source] In addition, some 219 groups in Syria who had formerly been suspected of involvement in armed resistance have agreed to the terms of a ceasefire. [source]."

As for the YouTube.com source, it depends on the YouTube. In this case, it interjects no personal bias, but is simply a Russian military briefing. If you have doubts about it being a WP:RS, you can always ask the opinion of an administrator.Davidbena (talk) 15:46, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that looks massively better. I would make it clear who it was that suspected this involvement in armed resistance as well. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:01, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 Done

• Davidbena, this is an overview article of a protracted conflict. You put some statistics from the 9 June briefing by the Russian defence ministry, whereas the latest on the subject i have only just read on syria.mil.ru is dated 24 June. So what? These "reconciliation agreements" are red herrings: first, it is just not clear what they really mean; but obviously, they are not agreements between opposing sides of the conflict. Read carefully who are the parties to those.Axxxion (talk) 22:27, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So, Axxxion, how would you suggest rewording this paragraph so as to comply with your view of noteworthy and up-to-date reporting of this conflict, especially as it pertains to peace efforts? Of course, if the statement should be corrected to make note of the fact that these agreements were made between parties who were not directly involved in armed conflict, you can stress this fact. The first clause, I thought, had accurately made that distinction. BTW: After several trials and errors (re-edits), there is now a consensus to add this important anecdote.Davidbena (talk) 22:41, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There have been several editors′ reverts of this, which clearly indicates there is no consensus about this passage. As far as I am concerned, my main objection is that the matter is not investigated (journalistaically at least) and unclear: there have to be serious analytical texts to elucidate what these "reconciliation agreements" are in the real world, outside the online texts posted by the Russian Defence ministry. Axxxion (talk) 00:11, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reverts with given reasons in the "edit summary" that have since been corrected cannot be considered a consensus. As for your view that the information provided by the source is too vague, why would you rule-out looking at online texts posted by the Russian Defence ministry to help you further understand what is meant by "reconciliation agreements"? Since Russia is a key-player in its sphere of influence in Syria, and since the same information that you seek can hardly be had elsewhere, why would you limit your "investigative" source? It makes little sense to me, although I admit that I am no expert. The military briefing by the Russian side seems, in my humble opinion, to bring some balance to this article.Davidbena (talk) 00:31, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Axxxion, this is for your information. Upon reexamining the video with the Russian military briefing and its mention of the "Russian Center for reconciliation of opposing sides," I was able to do a Google search on this organization, and it just so happens that there is an article about its operations in Syria, on the Russian-language Wikipedia. See Center for Reconciliation of the warring parties in Syria. The page also provides you with an automatic translation, if you cannot read Russian. There, it says explicitly: "According Konashenkova, the main goals of the center is to actively promote the negotiation process of reconciliation between the legitimate Syrian government and the rebel opposition. Also, one of the key objectives of the Center is to organize the delivery of humanitarian assistance to civilians... One of the main problems - the conclusion of agreements on joining illegal armed groups and individual settlements to the cessation of hostilities in Syria. At the beginning of 2017 the number of localities that have joined the reconciliation process was more than 1,100." In the video it notes that, as of 9 June 2017, "Reconciliation agreements [were] signed with representatives of 1571 human settlements"---Davidbena (talk) 01:26, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would tend to agree with Axxxion. I think the notability for inclusion in the main article on the war is not clear, especially as there are more specific articles on e.g. peace efforts, and relying on primary sources in this way might be original research. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I respect your opinion. Has our fellow co-editor, Axxxion, changed his mind after my brief explanation? I realize that this page is only a general overview of the Syrian Civil war, but then again, there is a section entitled "Peace efforts," and two lines mentioning the Russian efforts in this regard might not hurt the article. What do you think? Using a Primary source presents no difficulty, as per WP:Primary sources.Davidbena (talk) 15:53, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely I have not, as far as this article is concerned, for that matter. The Russ defence ministry updates this info on a daily basis: latest as of now: [1]. The very fact that such centre exists is notable, in my view, and probably there has to be a section about it in Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War: there is probably a mention of it in there, but i cannot see for now. We have to keep this article lean, otherwise it will spin out of control.Axxxion (talk) 20:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This may be an apt place for this type of info: Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil War#Russian peace initiatives and efforts.Axxxion (talk) 20:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Axxxion, would you agree that we seek a larger consensus, say, by referring this question to WP:RfC?---Davidbena (talk) 21:20, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article nowhere mentions that Israel has been supporting the Syrian opposition for years; with cash, humanitarian assistance, food deliveries and occasional military actions. The Wall Street Journal wrote about that in a lengthy and detailed article circa 2 weeks ago > [2]. Also, ISIS apologized to Israel for "mistaken" attack and vowed to never attack again > [3][4].

I agree it even needs to be listed in the infobox as a belligerent, but some editors think they have found a loophole by claiming Israel is not actually participating in this war, and that their clashes are part of some separate conflict only between Israel and the Syrian government/Hezbollah. Which is reaching quite a bit, especially given the direct help for the rebels and coordination. FunkMonk (talk) 12:05, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding of the situation is that Israel is for anyone (Russian, American, or otherwise) who is fighting against the extremists, ISIS. Since Israel is not directly involved in this conflict, there is no reason to mention Israel, especially when those presenting Israel's case are often biased.Davidbena (talk) 19:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Israel doesn't give a damn about ISIS, it isn't a threat to them. The Israeli Defence minister has said "In Syria, if the choice is between Iran and the Islamic State, I choose the Islamic State".[5] They're only afraid of Iran and Hezbollah, that's why they support Syrian rebels and bomb the government side again and again. FunkMonk (talk) 19:56, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Little do you know. I live in Israel, and there is nothing that concerns us more than Arab extremism/terrorism. Of course, Syria (an arch-rival and enemy of the Jewish State) has not, in recent history, instigated any wars against Israel, and now that they're pinned-down in this ongoing conflict, we can expect the situation to remain so for a long time to come. Of course, if given the choice between a war with Iran and a war with ISIS, ISIS would be the easier of the two. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 20:03, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't matter what you or I think we know when the Israeli defence minister himself states he prefers ISIS over Iran and Hezbollah. And it doesn't change the fact that Israel is helping the very Islamic extremists in Syria that they are apparently so "concerned" about.[6][7] FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your Wall Street Journal reports that Israel has been, for years, carving out a buffer zone populated by friendly forces. So what's wrong with giving food, fuel and medical supplies to people on the border? Do you really believe this is tantamount to waging a war against the Syrian nation? You see, you've taken this editorial just a little bit too far. Of course, if Israel should feel threatened or is attacked, Israel will defend itself.Davidbena (talk) 21:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It means Israel is both arming a side of the conflict and attacking the forces that side is fighting. That makes it a part of the conflict. FunkMonk (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Israel never attacks an enemy, unless it first feels threatened or else it is being attacked. This does not make Israel a party in the current conflict (Civil War), but rather, Israel is doing what she has always done.Davidbena (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like special pleading. FunkMonk (talk) 21:22, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

History speaks for itself. Besides, you have no consensus, not to mention any "reliable sources," to add here that Israel is a party to the current conflict.Davidbena (talk) 21:32, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I showed you reliable sources that state Israel provides weapons and money to Syrian rebel groups while attacking the Syrian government. What else does it take to be part of a conflict? FunkMonk (talk) 21:34, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You showed a source that equates Israel's defense posture (when threatened) with actual military involvement in the current conflict. By the dupes of words artfully framed, that article seeks to mislead the simple-minded and naive.Davidbena (talk) 21:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Israel does not really (in earnest) view ISIL as a threat, as they know very well who is behind it. Besides, we have already a perfectly islamic state, whose judicial practice is virtually the same as Daesh; that state has just bribed Us gov with a few $ hundred billion to keep every one involved happy... But that is indeed beside the point here, as FunkMonk has pointed up. The issue of how Israel should be treated for the purposes of this article is worth attention, as well as the US, BTW. I already sectioned out the US as a ″belligerent″, but not in the infobox -- am just a bit coy about editing these juggernauts. I think, we ought to look at things in the broad scheme of things, encyclopedically, to coin a phrase. Amnot an expert, but the basics, I suppose, are these: Syria and Israel have always been and are at war (Israel–Syria relations), in a legal/technical sense, in terms of international law, that is. Thus, Israel is indeed a belligerent in that sense. The question is whether this fact is relevant to the subject this article is about. If attacks continue and we have some formal statements on that from Israel, I think we need to adjust accordingly.Axxxion (talk) 20:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I think this charade has gone on long enough. Even the Wall Street Journal is now reporting on lethal Israeli aid for five rebel groups, a few of them associated for the Free Syrian Army. I've added the info to the infobox. It's absolutely ridiculous to take the position that the Israeli support is somehow part of a "separate conflict" with some Syrian government-allied forces that's completely unrelated to the Syrian Civil War. Esn (talk) 01:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, it is getting ridiculous indeed. FunkMonk (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, i created a new section in Foreign involvement in the Syrian Civil War#Israel, on the basis of what has been provided by colleagues here. Please contribute.Axxxion (talk) 15:32, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nice, also needs mention of the continuous bombing of government forces. FunkMonk (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The WSJ report (who got its info from the rebels) is probably reliable. Syrians probably have an unfavorable view of Israel, so the Syrian rebels would not say that they are receiving help from Israel unless it's true.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:20, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article has a much wider connotation and I ask the other members, administrators and moderators to modify, not to delete. What in Eastern Aleppo and what character is the Maskanah Plains offensive? What is Battle of Raqqa (2017) as part of Raqqa campaign (2016-present)? This represents the Al-Sukhnah offensive as the most striking part of the Syrian Desert campaign (May 2017-present). The Al-Sukhnah offensive must be a special article such as the Maskanah Plains Offensive and Southern Raqqa Offensive (June 2017). Al-Sukhnah offensive represents one of the main sub-battles and offensives as part of the Syrian Desert campaign (May 2017-present).--Baba Mica (talk) 12:46, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

First, no reliable/notable sources that present an Al-Sukhnah offensive as a notable subject so it fails WP:NOTABILITY. Second, no reliable/notable sources that actually state there is an Al-Sukhnah offensive, so it fails WP:VERIFIABILITY. (In contrast, Syrian Army operations south of Raqqah and near Maskanah have been a notable subject in international media outlets) Third, sources that do exist state that this axis of the SAA's advance is part of the Syrian Desert campaign (May 2017-present) so its not separate. Fourth, the Al-Sukhnah subsection that does exist in the campaign article actually focuses more on the fighting in and around Arak and its gas fields, not Al-Sukhnah itself. Al-Sukhnah is only mentioned as a possible endgoal of this axis of advance. Fifth, considering a potential Al-Sukhnah offensive of having a much wider connotation and being the most striking part is considered unsourced Original Research unless its backed-up by sources. EkoGraf (talk) 18:37, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need a section for foreign involvement when a lot of the foreign parties are already described in the Belligerents section (e.g. Russia, Iran, US-led coalition)? I think the Foreign Involvement section should be merged into the Belligerents section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:03, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]