Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bob Lilley (soldier)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.‎

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 03:23, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Lilley (soldier)

Bob Lilley (soldier) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Does not meet notability guidelines for a soldier see WP:SOLDIER. He was not awarded his nations highest military award. He did not reach a significant rank or command position. Jim Sweeney (talk) 11:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

as a founding member, perhaps he qualifies under the "Played an important role in a significant military event" ie the formation of the British SAS? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:24, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think founding member is a bit of a stretch, one of the first men selected, but as an enlisted man had no input on the raising of the regiment.Jim Sweeney (talk) 13:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of the extent of his role, wouldn't coverage of his involvement in several books and periodicals mean he passes the coverage requirements of WP:GNG without the need for soldier-specific criteria? Stalwart111 13:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Turns out there are a whole ton of media mentions of this man. Here's some interesting reading material:

Comment: There is a lot of media attention on this man Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL.

If Col David Stirling himself personally came down from Scotland to Folkestone to attended this man funeral in 1981 when Stirling was not very well - then this says something about Bob Lilley. At a 6ft 1" he was one of the "Tobruk Four" Coldstream Guards he was selected in Cairo by Stirling himself to be one of the first four members of the SAS. His name appears in many books on the SAS. Not many of the SAS originals was awarded the Military Medal and the British Empire Medal and MID (Mentioned in Despatches) twice.

I am knowledgeable on the subject from an academic point of view having worked for the government and I have correspondence on this man from various sources that is not for publication. I was able in the current article to get a declassified document from Army War Records 1940-1944 written by Col David Stirling (the founder of the SAS) himself regarding Bob Lilley on Bob Lilley protectively marked and labeled at "MOST SECRET" level which has recently been declassified and appears in the current Wikipedia article.

I would be grateful if contributors here and proposers for deletion of this article list here their academic qualifications and why they feel they are Subject Matter Experts on this topic. This would help in making a decision one way or the other.

If you are to delete this then you need to delete all the other articles of a similar nature on the biography of the other SAS founding members like Paddy Mayne etc..Pop goes the we (talk) 16:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

After some further review, it looks like this has a chance of meeting GNG, so let's keep it for now at least.. gwickwiretalkedits 19:46, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In response to your claims/questions/etc.
Your knowledge of the subject has no merit here on Wikipedia. You need to cite where someone else has written their knowledge about him. Pretty much, you will need reliable sources that are subject to editorial oversight, i.e. newspapers, academic journals, etc.
Your comment about 'listing our academic qualifications' is wrong. Even if we were all the most academically qualified people in the world, it would hold no merit in an AfD discussion.
Please see other stuff exists, that's not a good argument. If you'll link to other articles you want deleted, someone can probably take a look. gwickwiretalkedits 17:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I would like to see your reference for the MID, which was the fourth level bravery award, behind the VC, DCM and the MM and he's only mentioned in the quoted papers following the sale of his medals. Jim Sweeney (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Whether the MID is successfully sourced or not, after 2 minutes of searching I found six books where is is mentioned: [1][2][3][4][5][6]. That the article(s) from The Mail and BBC were prompted by the occasion of the sale of his medals is irrelevant - being one of the first members of the SAS and appearing in multiple books that cover the unit is enough to get past WP:GNG as far as I'm concerned. Lacking a source for the MDI then, I'd point you to WP:SOLDIER #5: Played an important role in a significant military event. The battles and operations this man and his peers were involved in were significant, as is the fact that he was part of the first operational actions of one of the most important military units in the history of modern warfare. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 20:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Comment I too think this man deserves mention. I too did a search on Bob Lilley SAS http://www.google.co.uk/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=Bob+Lilley+sas and there are even more books on this man then you have mentioned above. i would recommend Keep


  • Keep For those not knowledgeable on Sgt Bob Lilley he was one of the Commandos selected for the mission to destroy the German heavy water factory in Norway at Telemark and was transported by submarine. He received a Certificate signed personally by the King Olav of Norway thanking him for his contribution to the liberation of Norway. I am permitted to release this Certificate from the King of Norway. Email me for a Confidentiality Agreement. In discussion and interviews with his surviving family Bob Lilley was a private man who did not seek any recognition for his work. From the documents I was permitted to see and which probably will never be published Lilley served his country well above and beyond the call of duty in the Western Desert of North Africa then Italy and Europe and later Malaya.. He shunned the limelight and lived a quiet simple life right to the end. Little has ever been mentioned or spoken about him in the past. From my research Lilley never received the recognition he deserved because according to his family he would not have wanted it as many like him he said "I just did my job". Pop goes the we (talk
Comment Interesting that was Operation Freshman, but they were all killed or executed during the mission.Jim Sweeney (talk) 20:06, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Operation Freshman all died you are right but it is not all it seems as I mentioned from my academic research Lilley was a very modest man and not all he did will ever be published. But slowly a little is being released. I do not think you know all there is to know about the Operation for Telemark Mr Sweeney ( see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2217906/Fearless-World-War-Two-woman-spy-dropped-submarine-occupied-Norway-Bletchley-Park-codebreaker-dies-aged-91.html ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pop goes the we (talk • contribs) 16:44, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Keep I am permitted to release the Army War Record about Bob Lilley protectively marked as "MOST SECRET" which has been recently declassified in which Col David Stirling himself signed Sgt Bob Lilley is Mentioned in Dispatches as well as the MID Certificate itself.. Email me for a Confidentiality Agreement.Pop goes the we (talk) 20:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Pop, please stop heading all your comments as keep, labelling each comment keep is confusing). The MID is easily found in the London Gazette. There is no need for confidentiality agreements, material was has been declassified can be accessed and anyway the MIC certificate and the King Olav certificate can both be seen in this picture. NtheP (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Thank you for your constructive comment. I know from my academic research that this man deserves and has earned a mention more than say for example Ikechi Anya . Now if we all decide yes we should keep this article as a tribute to a quiet and simple former founder member of the SAS and who never sought publicity. What is to stop someone in two years time deciding to delete him? Pop goes the we (talk) 20:59, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment To answer your question, Wikipedia does not consider notability to be temporary, and a record of this discussion will remain, which can and will be used as precedent if and when someone decides to propose the article for deletion. While some articles are sometimes proposed for deletion multiple times, those tend to be the more controversial ones, and rarely bios like this one where notability has been established and its merits for inclusion determined based on consensus among editors. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 21:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: To Pop: Your reasons for keeping the article are becoming more persuasive, but don't mess it up by mentioning "tribute". Wikipedia is NOT a memorial. Boneyard90 (talk) 22:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment AFDs do not actually establish 'precedents'; notability is determined on a case-by-case basis, and pointing to other articles instead of sources which establish notability is typically treated as a case of a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS-type argument and ignored by the closing admin. Nick-D (talk) 22:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Not sure if you're replying to me or Pop, but I refer to 'precedent' only in the sense that AFDs for a specific article obviously always refer to the same basic topic and basic set of information and provide valuable guidance as to why it merits inclusion (or not) - because notability is not temporary. In this case, the person's notability is not going to decline over time, although of course the opposite is common. That said, I do recognize that many editors don't necessarily look at previous AFDs if they exist, and it's always possible that an an article that was kept before will be deleted in a subsequent AFD. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 22:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Nick-D (talk) 22:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 09:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 09:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- The coverage seems good enough for me. MM is less than VC, but it is still a high distinction. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The Military Medal, a third-level decoration, is certainly not high enough to keep an article (many thousands have been handed out and one would have to have multiple such decorations for inherent notability). His BEM adds to his notability, but not enough for an article. However, I would consider his status as a founder member of the SAS and one of its early RSMs makes him notable enough for us. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:35, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Lilley was one of the few to get MID (Mentioned In Dispatches) and was also one of the longest serving members of the SAS originals having served in SAS from 1941-1957 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.231.117 (talk) 11:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The few? Come off it. A MiD is an incredibly common award. Many people have been mentioned multiple times for the same campaign. Doesn't give any postnominal letters and doesn't contribute to notability at all. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the MID doesn't add much - Lilley's is one of 18 pages of names in that edition of the Gazette alone. As Necrothesp says above it's the founder membership of the SAS that is the clincher here, not any of the individual awards. NtheP (talk) 16:17, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Taken from " SAS: the history of the Special Raiding Squadron 'Paddy's men' " by Stewart McClean -- Page 21 Quote " All the members of C Section finished, although Bob Lilley had the almost back-breaking job of carrying one of his exhausted men draped across his shoulders for the last ten miles. Despite the immense hardships suffered by all concerned ..." - In my eyes this man is a hero to rescue and carry a wounded comrade acrross his shoulder for 10 miles in the desert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.100.167 (talk) 23:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That may well be (and personally, I agree) but inclusion in Wikipedia is not based on heroism, bravery or valour and should not be based on a want to memorialise great deeds (see WP:NOTMEMORIAL). Instead we need to establish whether the subject is notable. Great deeds that receive coverage in reliable sources can help. Stalwart111 23:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Reading all the above comments here this man as an original founder member of the SAS I think the case has been made for this mans inclusion under and I quote item from above comment ""Played an important role in a significant military event" ie the formation of the British SAS? this being a quote from someone above.. Until very recently most people who are not in the know would never have heard of Sgt Bob Lilley. As has been said above and I quote " In discussion and interviews with his surviving family Bob Lilley was a private man who did not seek any recognition for his work. From the documents I was permitted to see and which probably will never be published Lilley served his country well above and beyond the call of duty in the Western Desert of North Africa then Italy and Europe and later Malaya.. He shunned the limelight and lived a quiet simple life right to the end. Little has ever been mentioned or spoken about him in the past. From my research Lilley never received the recognition he deserved because according to his family he would not have wanted it as many like him he said "I just did my job".
In my eyes I would keep this man he is as notable and deserving as some if not more of those who are already included. Pop goes the we (talk)
I think you've probably made your case several times over and WP:CONSENSUS is clearly with you. No need to WP:BLUDGEON the process. Stalwart111 10:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bob_Lilley_(soldier)