The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.‎

The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 01:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

2007–08 Delta Ethniki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Season article of an amateur football league, which has no notability independent of the main article, that being Delta Ethniki. The scope of this nomination also extends to similar articles (six in total), where the same is true. Cloudz679 12:35, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• I am also nominating the following articles as indicated above:

2008–09 Delta Ethniki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

2009–10 Delta Ethniki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

2010–11 Delta Ethniki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

2011–12 Delta Ethniki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

2012–13 Delta Ethniki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

--Cloudz679 12:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Cloudz679 12:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete all per nom, no evidence of notability. GiantSnowman 12:48, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep all - This is the most serious and upsetting set of deletions that has been put forward in many months in my view. The deletion covers a "tier 4" league which is defined as a "Grey Area " in WP:NCLUB. How can we decide if a club is notable if we delete all the relevant tables? One only has to look at the debate on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aris Esymis F.C. to see that one league above the Delta Ethniki the Football League 2 (Greece) is a fully professional league in which players are notable. It seems very unsound proposal to delete the league below in my view. A lot of work has gone into producing the tables by the relevant editors. League Octopus (League Octopus 13:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Quite a few teams have been relegated from the professional ranks and I have recently identified those clubs that are notable in my sandbox (marked in yellow). These are some of the venues in the Delta Ethniki League Octopus (League Octopus 13:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC))[reply]

2011–12 Delta Ethniki - Lots of references on the equivalent Greek Wikipedia page - Δ΄ Εθνική ποδοσφαίρου ανδρών 2011-12. League Octopus (League Octopus 14:37, 12 November 2012 (UTC))[reply]

comment according to your essay at NCLUB, Central Midlands Football League is in the same grey area yet I am sure that league doesn't have season articles as noone covers that, and even if sources exist, that's not a criterion for inclusion. I am not suggesting the league article is deleted, just the season articles. Surely a club is notable if it's played in a professional league or a national cup, neither of which is related to this AfD. --Cloudz679 13:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete all per nomination. Note, however, that the league is semi-pro, not amateur as the nominator suggests. The Delta Ethniki article itself needs some major work, and only the template of the seasons actually links to them - no links are present in the Delta Ethniki article. (Is it possible to include the template in this AfD as it's a group AfD? If it is, that should also be done.) Lukeno94 (talk) 15:30, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment – this is a tricky one to access. Lukeno94, the Delta Ethniki is in papers at least an 100% amateur competition; most players only get expenses covered, whereas a selected few top-profile players receive 1000 times their expenses under the table, while appearing on par with anyone else. I doupt if this is considered semi-pro since there are zero contracts involved. In any case, the league is considered a national competition one level under the professional leagues of Greek football. Online sources to satisfy WP:V can be found relatively easily for the current season, but they are susceptible to link rot, so older seasons are a trickier to find online. The real problem is if an article about each individual season would satisfy WP:GNG, and this is what's difficult to access, as significant coverage in non-routine reliable third-party sources is a good notability criterion for the competition's article but doesn't work as well for season articles. However, most recent seasons of Delta Ethniki individually receive just enough non-routine coverage in newspaper websites such as sentragoal.gr, especially during seasons where top-profile clubs are relegated to it due to dept, so I reckon those seasons would (barely) pass WP:GNG with a lot of time and effort. Alas, it's a burden which I'm not sure I can undertake considering the poor state of my internet connection at home... *sigh* – Kosm2fent 10:50, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Normally I would vote based on a policy, but in this case it's rather the other way around. After reading through WP:NOTSTATS I can't say that these articles fails that policy, but rather that these articles should "contain more explanatory text to put statistics within the article in their proper context for a general reader". I would say that season-articles like these are one of the key-articles in the football-encyclopedia with it's wikilinks to every club. Yes, these articles needs improvement and sourced prose, but deleting these article would cause a dangerous precedent I can't live with. Mentoz86 (talk) 20:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - I'm still saying that a non-fully professional competition does not justify having season articles; however, there *might* be some grounds for having a reference in the 2007-08 in Greek football article, if we must absolutely keep the data (after streamlining it a bit)? Lukeno94 (talk) 09:57, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 00:05, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete ALL per wiki guidlines. No notability outside of the main article. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 21:29, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep ALL - I agree with others views that the deletion covers a "tier 4" league which is defined as a "Grey Area " in WP:NCLUB.There are many club which are notable and even played first division.It seems very unsound proposal to delete the league below in my view because a lot of work has gone into producing the tables by the relevant editors.Also according to Greek Football Federation the restructuring of greek football championships will happen next season and this league will no longer exist and this is the last season of the league. Papagrikas (User talk:Papagrikas) 09:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 19:29, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 19:29, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - can you explain why you think these season articles are notable beyond the scope of the parent article, Delta Ethniki? Cloudz679 22:28, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Season articles are an essential element of the football encyclopedia of Wikipedia enabling us to trace the movement and progress of clubs up and down the divisions - they are in my view the "lifeblood" of our football encyclopedia demonstrating the dynamic nature of soccer over time. Yes we need boundaries Cloudz679 but they need to be set at the right level and in the case of Greek football the obvious place to delete season articles is at level 5 which covers the many District Championships. As a general rule in my view if a league is listed in the user essay WP:NCLUB then it should be a strong candidate for a season article. I would exclude Level 11 leagues in England such as the Central Midlands Football League which you rightly refer to above. In the case of Delta Ethniki there is another issue which we have not touched upon and that is that Soccerway only covers 2011/12 and 2012/13. I do not know where I could find similar information (in English) for the 2008/09, 2009/10 and 2010/11 seasons. RSSSF covers 2003/04 and 2004/05 in detail and the seasons back to 2001/02 are covered in Greek Wikipedia (if you can read Greek). We need league season tables to write informed club articles and this is particularly the case for clubs that move between Football League 2 (Greece) and Delta Ethniki. League Octopus (League Octopus 09:40, 23 November 2012 (UTC))[reply]
• Reply to Cloudz679: I think these articles are a reasonable WP:SPINOFF of the parent article. Mentoz86 (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment -Thanks for your reply and I can see your point, however I still believe that the articles in question do not assert independent notability from the parent article and a summary on the main page (e.g. winners in each season) would suffice. Cloudz679 20:02, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 00:55, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep or redirect. Without looking at the articles carefully, I can't have an opinion on whether these should be considered notable. However, it's easy to see that they've been around for several years, so it's reasonable for people to have searched for them and to have bookmarked them and linked to them on other websites. Therefore, deletion wouldn't be helpful; if we judge them not to qualify under WP:GNG, we'll serve readers better by redirecting all of them to the league article. Nyttend (talk) 05:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Age of an article is not a valid reason for keeping it. A redirect would probably be fine, but these low-quality articles about a minor league are far from notable. Lukeno94 (talk) 09:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not a valid reason for keeping it as an article, but it's a valid reason for keeping its name a bluelink. As I already said, I don't have an opinion on whether or not it should be kept as an article. Nyttend (talk) 13:02, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Article is unreferenced, appears to be no evidence of notability. Eldumpo (talk) 21:19, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep ALL For the same reasons as Mentoz86 said 94.65.184.125 (talk) 12:17, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.