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• @Pogenplain and Abo Yemen: I've started work on the rewrite at User:Kowal2701/Sabaeans in the Horn of Africa, obv everyone's free to contribute. I'm unsure whether we've picked the best title since it would currently include later relations between South Arabia and the Horn of Africa, such as between Aksum and Sheba, which isn't really what this article is meant to be. I've been thinking Origins of Dʿmt and the role of Sabaeans or Origins of Dʿmt and Sabaean influence (think Role of Sabaeans in the origins of Dʿmt would be too narrow as sources usually have a broad-view of the origins). Thoughts? Kowal2701 (talk) 10:23, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Good start. We can think about the name later when we have a ready article. I sadly cant help with the writing till im done with my exams at mid july. 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 10:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  No worries. Good luck, just memorise the syllabuses and you’ll be alright Kowal2701 (talk) 10:38, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from User talk:Kowal2701/Sabaeans in the Horn of Africa § Sabean narrative

The sabean narrative is a convenient Eurocentric tale to suppress any type of autonomy, seeing parallels between cultures does not indicate Sabean influence rather a concurrent civilisation on both sides as stated by many. Why are they are they being labelled as Sabean? What is the evidence of a south Arabian origin and influence? Why do they appear on both sides at the exact same period? Secondly where does the Greek influence appear in pre-Axumite sites? 51.190.229.94 (talk) 20:26, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Merely stating something does not make it factual 51.190.229.94 (talk) 20:30, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but we just follow what WP:RS say. Honestly I'm a bit dismayed scholars of ancient Yemen maintain it. It's a colonial narrative that lingers because nobody's accumulated enough evidence of the contrary. But even sources supporting an indigenous origin say there was undeniable South Arabian influence. Kowal2701 (talk) 20:42, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @Kowal2701 and (I'm assuming that this IP is BasedHistorianPHD due to the geolocation of the IP and the arguments that they're trying to represent, but anyways), I noticed that for some reason, this "Evidence of social complexity prior to 800 BCE" section is placed before the actual content that this article is supposed to be about. Is there a reason for that? And are Yamauchi 2001's views shared by other historians?

Also according to Avanzini 2016, p. 81, the word vocalizations Mukarrib and Makrub are both vocalizations of MKRB 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 15:16, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, apologies, probably should’ve discussed this first. I was going to detail the archaeological research in the theories section but it didn’t seem appropriate, and it seemed more logical to have that section first due to chronology. The section will be much shorter than the Sabaean influence one, but it is something sources on the origins of D’mt + Sabaean influence discuss. A less presumptive section title would be better though. I’ve got two journal articles from Fattovich to add and another one from 2023. Re social complexity, Yamauchi’s views are mainstream.

Both Harrower + D’Andrea and Phillipson present Mukarrib/Makrub as opposing POVs, are you saying Avanzini says Makrub is another word for Mukarrib? I’ll change the wording so not to present WP:FALSEBALANCE since mukarrib is the most common interpretation. Kowal2701 (talk) 15:57, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can only ever find the first 20 pages of Avanzini online, so have just had to tag her POV onto Japp et al's from the quote you provided. At present it looks like the theories section is going to have 3/4 for assimilation and 1 for colonisation (indigenous adoption may get folded into assimilation or just the point be made that it's argued in tandem with other theories). Even looking at citations from more recent works I'm struggling to find more. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:17, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If you can summarise Avanzini's views in a new paragraph that'd be really helpful Kowal2701 (talk) 16:19, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kowal2701 ill try to when im back home 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 16:37, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kowal2701 did you look for it at Anna's Archive? if you did and couldn't find it ill email you a pdf version of it when im back home, just send me an email using the "email this user" button 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 16:36, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The page for Anna's Archive doesn't load for me unfortunately, that'd be really helpful thanks. I am trying very hard to be NPOV (despite my strong POV), if there are any bits that look a bit fishy or if it looks like my bias is creeping through, do raise it. Avanzini would be great though since the epigraphy section currently has too much Phillipson Kowal2701 (talk) 16:52, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kowal2701 I'm back home. Where can I send you the PDF? 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 19:08, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Lol my bad, I’ll email you Kowal2701 (talk) 19:11, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Actually you should be able to email me? Kowal2701 (talk) 19:12, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kowal2701 I cant email you PDFs using wikipedia's special:email thing 🙂 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 19:14, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Okay try Kowal2701 (talk) 19:31, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

sent 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 20:01, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kowal2701 I just came across this newly published article (Published less than a week ago) on the colonization stuff, that should be helpful here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0067270X.2025.2510762 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 20:12, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Got it, thanks. Great find, that looks great. I had no idea about the inscriptions found in Somalia. While it's a bit outside the scope of the origins of dmt, but we can paraphrase The South Arabian presence in the Horn was never homogeneous in political, cultural or territorial terms. Although the available data are still limited, we can perhaps discern two different models: a proper colonialist one along the northern Somali seaboard, with direct intervention of the state and aimed at the extraction of resources, and a diasporic model in the northern Horn, led by élites who soon mixed with local people, while maintaining ties with their ancestral homeland. at the start of the section on influence or in theories. The stuff about Somalia can also be added to Sheba Kowal2701 (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Abo Yemen and Pogenplain: Hi, I think the body of User:Kowal2701/Sabaeans in the Horn of Africa is pretty much done, are there any improvements you guys would make? Kowal2701 (talk) 20:14, 29 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I like ti just two things first of all make the lead longer and make a summary of the subject, like mentioning the main theories and the timing of the rise of social complexity, and second re name "Archaeological research predating 800 BCE" to i think something like "Rise of social complexity" or "Beginning of social complexity" Pogenplain (talk) 20:31, 29 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I was holding off writing the lead till the body was done. How about "Development of social complexity"? I did originally have it as "Evidence of social complexity prior to 800 BCE" but it seemed non-neutral and presumptive, especially since it comes before the Sabaean influence section Kowal2701 (talk) 20:35, 29 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Development of social complexity" go for it ! Pogenplain (talk) 02:32, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I started an RM below Kowal2701 (talk) 12:32, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• @Abo Yemen:, would it be better if I wrote a decent stub on the Somalia stuff? I just don’t see the scope implied by the current title as an encyclopedic topic, and think the main article for all this would be at Sheba Kowal2701 (talk) 13:45, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  I think that there should be an article for the overall Sabaean presence in the HoA and how they influenced the region, and another one for the origins of D'mt stuff 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 13:57, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  There just aren’t any sources on that as a broad topic, it’d involve a lot of synth. It’s just not how scholars frame it Kowal2701 (talk) 14:01, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  oh well, if it could fit in the Sheba article then I'll be fine with it. It would be nice if we could also finish with the issues that you brought up with the "African conquests" section 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 14:06, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Is it alright if I do some bold edits later today, then you can scrutinise and blanket revert if there’s any issues so we then discuss? I’ll make the stub on Sheba and Somalia too, it’s still a developing topic so it’ll probably get expanded in the future Kowal2701 (talk) 14:57, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @Kowal2701 yeah sure go ahead 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 15:02, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Like the perspective is more about researching the HoA first, Sabaean influence second, rather than researching Sheba first, HoA second, I guess because most of the literature on this comes from Africanists Kowal2701 (talk) 14:10, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]