Talk:Bjelopavlići

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In general why don’t you open your own Albanian page for what you think Palbardi clan is? Bjelopavlic clan based on DNA descend from the man who was born around 1220 in area controlled by Hungarians. He and many others settled in Zeta during the reign queen Helen of Serbia. DNA migration map is very clean. It does not allow history manipulation. Your history is based on some names from 15th century that just mention some Pal Bardi in Skadar document. That Pal Bardi is born 200 years after Bjeli Pavle. We, the Bjelopavlic clan do not have any connection with that man. In our speech, which is very well documented in the book Govor Bjelopavlica by Dr Drago Cupid [1] We have Italian, Turkish words but non Albanian. Your desire to put as as part of your sick dream is pointless. I will complain to wiki and raise concern about your ideas abut the ways of promoting idea about so called Great Albania.

Bjelopavlići old SerbIan tribe.

They were an old SerbIan tribe. Four sources talk about Bjelopavlići as Albanian tribe and they do not mention Bjelopavliće as Serbian tribe. It would be good if this fact is adjusted with sources(RS).Mikola22 (talk) 18:09, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mikola22:, I reverted back to the previous version that contains the material your wrote. However, I deleted the Fine source as he does not say that the tribe is/was Albanian. Can you give a quote of the Elsie source? On the other source, is "Bilopavlovići" same as "Bjelopavlići". I have a feeling that in general the tribe is seen as Montenegrin rather than Albanian or Serbian. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:14, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not really, as Bjelopavlići are from Brda region, which makes them Highlanders and not Montenegrins (historically). Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:52, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sadko, if you have reliable sources feel free to add content. The identity of a good part of Montenegro's population is a complex matter with fluid identities. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:07, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ktrimi991:[1] Yes, you're right this source mentions the Montenegrin tribe, When Pasha of Herzegovina attack city of Kotor 1657, Albanian tribes of Klimenti and Bjelopavlići also participated in this battle This is the first information from source I edit and then I used this information(Albanian), are they Albanians from Montenegro or Albanians from Albania it is not quite clear if we follow this source. As for "John V. A. Fine, 1994, The Late Medieval Balkans" I made a mistake here but I think I had that information somewhere but probably in another book. I'll try to find that information.Mikola22 (talk) 20:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That and could as well mean that the author separates Klimenti and Bjelopavlići. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:46, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But, after a resistant defence by local people, supported by the Venetian navy, which included Governor General Bernardo, the Ottomans gave up the siege. The Albanian tribes of the Klimenti and Bilopavlovići also participated in this fight but their rebellion against their Ottoman masters was soon to be oppressed.The governor general was to describe this extraordinary defence in his report to the Venetian government as his first military campaign after taking on his duty. He continued to support the Albanian tribes, especially the Paštrovići, Maini and Pobori by sending them supplies of grain and wood so they could rebuild some houses in the town of Budva I think this source talk about Albanian tribes.Mikola22 (talk) 20:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to take 100% part in this conversation because I'm working on other articles about tribes right now, but allow me to give you my honest opinion as someone who has been working for quite a while on these subjects: i)work with specialized bibliography. You will not find anything worth adding to this article with some random book that mentions this community in its 400+ pages ii)these tribes were not of one single origin in many cases. They formed from different communities, some of whom had different ethnicities (Slavic, Albanian, Vlach) and settled in that area in different waves of settlement. iii)Usually, the last wave of settlement in a region happens to form the majority today. For example, in Mrkojevići the old community, pravi Mrkojevići of Slavic Orthodox, but also some Catholic Albanian anthroponymy forms a very small part of the region. Most are actually descendants of families that moved there in the 19th century. So, don't go on thinking that if you find a "White Paul" in the 14th or 15th century, it actually means that his descendants live there now. iv) Start by adding the demographic data. Bjelopavlići is on page 123 of the translation of the defter of Shkodra by Selami Pulaha (1975). v)in Albanian they are known as Palabardhi (written in Latin as Palabardi). There are enough sources online if you find that useful for the readers. vi)Luska zupa in the article is related to the Lužani (ignore the article, it's bad). That may also be useful to have in the article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:02, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ragusas archive from 1411 are specific and talks about Bjelopavlici not Palabardi. Simo Ljubic 1881 published Skadarski zemljisnik based on Venetian archives. Pal Bardhi mentioned there is more than century younger than Bjeli Pavle and most likely do not have any relationship. Venetian noted only loyal people in this document, not the one who were against them. Some Ljubic also published Venetian document where Bjelopavlic are specifically mentioned. Bjelopavlic1965 (talk) 20:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bjelopavlic DNA tree
Bjelopavlic1965 (talk) 23:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

Albanian Origin

@Boki As per MOS:LEAD, the fact that the tribe is of Albanian origin (which is very clearly explained and described in the article) is integral to their existence and an important contextual fact. As such, it should be included within the first line of the lead. Botushali (talk) 15:38, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for Elsie's link, which says that they could have been Albanians, "at least in part". But unfortunately, Bjelopavlići were the least of each of these tribes to bear Albanian names. Check Pulaha's defter, check every PS that ever mentionted them, check most RS like Đurđev, you will never find such an information. Bjelopavlići were not even mixed, nor can we say that they were of Vlach origin. And, certainly not Albanian. Boki (talk) 21:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even DNA analysis proves that the clan is not of Albanian origin. Migration of Bjeli Pavle to Zeta happened in 13th century, when Queen Helen the Anjou ruled the region. Oral history confirms that too. Pavle origins were in Ungaria, and Helen came from the same region. Pavle’s descendants from 14th century can be found in Montenegro(Serbs/Montenegrins), Kosovo(Bosniak) and South Albania. This is also coherent with original oral tradition. DNA results also proves that Bjelopavlici do not have any close relation with other clans that bear haplogroup E, whether the clans are integrated in Albanian or any of Slavic nations. The article presents authors intention for Greater Albania, which we know in history never existed, nor will exist. Bjelopavlic1965 (talk) 20:13, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Todor's sister

Thanks to the person who finally fixed the last paragraph about support for Montenegrin independence. Palabardhi are indeed part of Brda (Malesia), not Old Montenegro. But there is another mistake in the text. The assasination of Daniel I was carried out because Todor's sister, a married woman, was being remarried to one of Prince Daniel's guards. Not because Prince Daniel had an affair with Todor's wife. Since this was a grave offense to Todor, he followed the Kanun of Leka Dukagjini (Albanian Codex of Honour) and killed the man who dishonored his sister. Every native Montenegrin source mentions a sister, no one ever mentions a wife. Please fix that, thank you. 62.4.55.104 (talk) 14:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2025

Remove the reference no. 10 of Azeta Kola's article in Sources. I have read the article and she does not hint at the ethnical origins of the tribe. Thus, she cannot be used to reinforce the claim that the tribe is originally albanian (other than her mentioning the albanian variant of the name in cit. no. 1). Kalafinwë (talk) 04:50, 2 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Theeverywhereperson (talk here) 15:57, 2 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I also removed another claim that seemed unnecessary, and the accompanying ref. @Theeverywhereperson please see WP:ERREQ for instructions about replying to edit requests - we are required to attribute the edit to the requester to comply with copyright requirements, this is typically done in the edit description (so "attributed to [[User:user]] or [[Special:Contributions/IP]]) ASUKITE 16:09, 2 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Sometimes I don't really do that. Theeverywhereperson (talk here) 16:10, 2 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you ! I have also looked into the author Selami Pulaha, having read a translated article of his and a collective book he partook in ; "The Truth on Kosova" (1993).
The introduction is dire on the latter, and showcases a strong bias from the editorial staff including Pulaha. They blatantely refer to Slavs and Magyars as "barbarians" (not citing sources, but their own words), that their migrations were simply invasions, and claim archeological inevidence of their traces in the Balkan in the 7th century, none of which is true nor acceptable for any respecting historians. The authors also acknowledge the claim of albanian Illyrianism, which is a known pseudoscience (citing Albanians "conserved" the original ethnicity of the Illyrians).
I am worried about referencing such an author on this page which clearly shows conflicting claims between Serb and Albanian communities on the origins of this Bjelopavlic tribe. Kalafinwë (talk) 02:10, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback. That work is assuredly not WP:RS and it can be removed. — Sadko (words are wind) 07:58, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • See latest reply to Alltan.
Kalafinwë (talk) 01:40, 8 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Puöaha is RS. Calling the Illyrian origin of the Albanians pseudoscience shows a severe lack of knowledge on the topic. Pulaha translated the 1485 defter, and his works are among the most quoted of any Albanian author in history. The work will be reinstated if removed as baseless opinions on Albanian ethnogenesis are really not needed here. Alltan (talk) 11:33, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Illyrian origin of Albanians, while a long-standing hypothesis in the last decades, is highly contested and cannot be presented as an established fact, and it is generally considered as a pseudoscience. There are significant methodological and evidentiary issues with the theory, which is why it remains very much debated. You seem to hold a very one-sided perspective of the matter, if not very nationalistic must I guess, and such a stand has not place here.
To label all critique of the Illyrian hypothesis as “a severe lack of knowledge” is very inaccurate mate, and it dismisses the legitimate diversity of scholarly positions on Albanian ethnogenesis. We can't have that here neither.
I am not denying that Pulaha’s archival work (such as the defter you mentioned) remains valuable, it is reasonable and pretty much necessary to distinguish between his empirically grounded contributions and his more ideologically charged writings, to which I have pointed out in my last comment in this thread.
If the publication is to remain, I would have the author labeled so that interested readers might explore and make their own opinions on the matter. Kalafinwë (talk) 01:39, 8 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Calling the Illyrian-Albanian link a “pseudoscience” is actually an egregious misrepresentation of what modern scholarship actually states.
The Illyrians were a group of related Paleo-Balkanic peoples. It is an established fact that Albanians have a Paleo-Balkanic origin, and the main debate now is which group in the Illyrian sphere represents their main ancestral population. Recently, scholars have favoured the Dardanians as the primary ancestral group.
The link between Albanians and these ancient Paleo-Balkanic peoples is confirmed by whatever linguistic evidence is available (albeit a limited amount, save for the Messapians), lots of cultural evidence, and more recently, genetic evidence, which indicates that the vast majority of Albanians belong to haplogroups associated with these same Paleo-Balkanic groups. Some of the articles here on Wikipedia do a decent job of explaining these links, and I suggest you read them.
So, please don’t try to wrongfully present Pulaha - whose work is amongst the finest in terms of archival research - as a preacher of pseudoscience. He is a very respectable academic scholar. Botushali (talk) 03:06, 8 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to clarify the debated origin of the Bjelopavlići tribe

Hello,

I noticed that the article currently states that the Bjelopavlići are of Albanian origin. However, this is only one of several historical theories, and it does not reflect the broader academic consensus.

Most Montenegrin and Serbian historians — such as Jovan Erdeljanović, Andrija Luburić, and Risto Kovijanić — describe the Bjelopavlići as a Serbian Orthodox tribe from the Montenegrin Brda region, with some possible earlier connections or interactions with neighboring Albanian groups.

On the other hand, some Albanian historians (e.g., those linking the tribe to the Palabardhi family) argue for an Albanian origin.

Given these differing perspectives, the most balanced and neutral phrasing would be to state that:

“The origin of the Bjelopavlići tribe is debated among historians.”

This would bring the article in line with Wikipedia’s Neutral Point of View (NPOV) and Verifiability policies.

Suggested edit to the introduction:

“The Bjelopavlići are a historical tribe from central Montenegro. Their origin is debated — with most historians describing them as a Serbian Orthodox tribe, while some Albanian sources claim descent from the Palabardhi family.”

I believe this change would make the article more accurate and balanced.

Thank you for your time and for maintaining the quality of this page.


Erdeljanović, Jovan (1926). Stara Crna Gora i Brda. Luburić, Andrija (1930). Pleme Bjelopavlići u prošlosti i sadašnjosti. Kovijanić, Risto (1965). Crnogorska plemena u ispravama i spisima XVI–XIX vijeka. 109.245.146.40 (talk) 15:46, 20 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Jovan Erdeljanović wrote in 1926, Andrija Luburić in 1930. Both works go against WP:AGEMATTERS and are also not WP:RS. We have numerous modern sources (not all of them from Albanian historiography) which, for the most part, ascribe an Albanian origin… Botushali (talk) 17:44, 20 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bjelopavli%C4%87i