Talk:South Slavic languages

Negotiations with the Map-Maker!

I have taken the liberty to put the talk with.... what was your name again, map genius... in a new section, and to colour my comments in a different colour. I am as blind as a bat and it helps me orient. But if you have anything against that, do let me know. VMORO 16:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm so sorry that I sparked such a big debate and I deeply apologize if I offended anyone. I know the least about Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects. I chose this map as the base because it was the most detailed map I could find on the Internet, and I can't read Cyrillic, so I did not bother checking the details. I also searched for maps of "Macedonian dialects", but I found maps like this and this, which looked to me to be just outtakes of the map I took for my source. Now I have made an edit before noticing these comments, and now I guess it is still wrong…

No, you should not apologise, th map was great, but because of nationalim, we need to tweak so that everyone is happy. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please provide pictures or links of the maps, by which you think it is the most appropriate to then draw the map? Or at least answer the following questions (names are referring to this map, which is currently the base for both Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects). Any comment from User:Kluche?

That is a difficult question, considering that Torlakian is generally defined as a Serbian set of dialects. This would make the Macedonian and Bulgarian ones also Serbian ones, and I do not exect anyone to be happy about that. I think that you can keep the colours and territories the same, shading from a hue that is more transitional to Bul/Mac then to true Torlak dialects (Timok-Luznica) and then to Prizren-Timok that should shade into the neighbouring Serbian Kosovo-Resava. Yet, if you can manage at the same to keep all three within a common group of dialects, that will be wonderful. I think you have practically done that.VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is the whole area of what is marked as крайни северозападни говори also Torlakian? Should I include горански говор as Torlakian? Should that enclave in Bulgaria on this map also be pictured as Torlakian (around Valchedram; there were no signs of it on this map I used)

Gorani should be included in the Bulgaro-Macedonian group, as this is where it is placed. But again - input from User:Kluche? I believe the three-way dychotomy works fine. All transitional Dialects in BG and NM shade towards the neighbouring BG/NM dialects.
I have seen Valchedram only in a couple of isoglosses, so you'd better leave it out. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should Torlakian be classified by Bulgarian or Serbian classification? And I guess only those exclaves in this map should be marked as Torlakian in Kosovo…

In order not to start another Balkan War, please classidy Torlak as in between, but slightly more on the Serbian side. Do I make sense? I feel half crazy when I say all this. Basically, because it is spoken by Serbs, then it is a Serbian dialect. However, because it has clear characteristic of Eastern Balkan Slavic, it is considered transitional between Western and Eastrn. Did I make any sense at all? VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should the border between Macedonian and Bulgarian follow the border exactly or go along those borders that are already marked/those that will be present on the provided maps?

Which borders are marked? Go along the state border as defined by sociolinguists. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are the dialects in "eastern part of Greek Macedonia" referring to the eastern dialects marked in red on the original map? Because I never had the intention of classifying those as western nor as Macedonian.

Yup.VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to keep the map as straightforward as possible, so I would like to diplomatically avoid the transitional nature of some dialects by not running the text over them and painting them of some transitional color. It may be detailed on the Wikimedia page (I am planning to make a legend). Note that most readers probably would not be that educated about dialectology, the relationship between the languages or the features of those dialects. Is that OK with you?

The only place where this is of importance is the Torlak dialects (as they are transitional between Eastern and Western Slavic) VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the same reason I am not a fan of making dotted lines for parts where the minority speaks a Slavic language. It would take a lot more research to figure out in which parts it is actually the minority and then we also have minorities of speakers of one Slavic language in the territory when another Slavic language is spoken by the majority and I believe it would only make the map messier. If I included any parts that languages are not spoken anymore, then please point that out.

I can provide you with ethnic maps of Bulgaria, North Macedonia, Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro. Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia are N/A here. However, if you feel that this will burden too much, we leave it as is.

Could you provide me also the maps of Bulgarian (or any other language in the continuum if it's missing) spoken in other countries? I have read about it being spoken in more areas in Romania, Turkey, Moldavia and Ukraine, but I never found detailed maps, nor the sub-classification of them as which dialect/dialect group they belong to.

You can use these two, even though it says they are from the last century (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-Bulgarians-live-in-Southern-Moldova-and-Eastern-Romania and https://www.pinterest.com/pin/32299322319560120/). Or this one - but if you disregard all splodges in Wallachia, North Dobrudja and the enormous splodge in Banat. As for classificafication, I am linguisit, but I am getting lost there. The easiest approach would be to call them transitional between Moesian and Balkan.
This is the latest map from Serbia (see below:). As the border between Sb and Bg is getting very jagged, you can use theb pre-1919 border. And they are on the Bulgarian side of Torlak.
Serbian languages
In Romania, realistically, there is only one village, Dudeștii Vechi, that speaks Bulgarian at the moment. I think you could perhaps enalrge the area to make it more noticeable, but I question the need to add several dots for villages with 10% Bulgarians.
In Turkey, hmm.... Well, either use dotted map for past distribution or one of these for present (https://www.facebook.com/bulgariamaps/photos/a.114459070454122/164809755419053/)> However, I don't believe the language is well-preserved, whatever the Turkish authorities say, and since Pomaks in Turkey are from everywhere, there is no way to mark dialects.
However, In Greece, for the Pomak areas, use Rhodopean dialects (the last map should work out).
The Christian Slavic dialects will be another major problem. This is a map that I personally trust: (https://i.redd.it/qyicrwy2ci121.png). Only dark red signifies use of language, the rest are hellenified former Patriarchists with passive knowledge of the language. However, the in area of Florina, it goes a bit over the top. Again User:Kluche, opinions?
But please do reduce the area of Bulgarian in Asia Minor and west of Constantioniple a bit (quite a bit actually). It is a bit too much to claim so much terriritory for around 20 villages each. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This map also excluded some islands on the Danube. As far as I know, they are uninhabited and part of Bulgaria. Is it OK if I fill them in because now it looks a bit weird…

Go for it. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, when all this is sorted out, I would be delighted if the speakers of other languages would be willing to translate all those terms into their language, so I can make the same map in other languages.

Not sure what you mean here, but I would absolulely do my best to help you :). VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will be open to all your suggestions. Garygo golob (talk) 18:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have one specific suggestion, and it is regarding the Balkan dialects. The Sub-Balkan ones practically appear as Moesian. If you cannot identify a separate shade, you can marked them down as "Balkan" with a clear conscience. The difference between them and the internal differences between any other subgroups are practically negligible. (Trust me, I'v studied it). You can also add the Varna sub-dialect to them, as I don't know how you will manage a mixed Thracian/Balkan/Moeasian. And Balkan has gained accendence there long ago.
I also have a suggestion regarding the Moesian dialects, as they have pretty much disappeared under the influence of the Balkan ones. For example, look at an older take at dialectal division (including only dialects spoken in Bulgaria):
Bulgarian dialects
Do you see that the northwesternmost part of Bulgaria is identified as Balkan? This is part of a methodological issue, as the older map also included newer settlements, where the new map (that you used) has exclusively used settlements that have not changed their population in 200 years or so. And such settlements in northeastern Bulgaria are simply missing. I leave it to you to decide what you are going to use. For northeastern Bulgaria, I would personally recommend the older map. (but no mixed areas in Burgas, Targovishte , if we start counding mixed area at the moment, the whole country will be mixed. So, I am sorry for going full logoreia on you, but I am really happy that you wil take on the redesign of the map. Thanks a lot!!!! VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@VMORO: I feel like you've complicated this discussion by replying section-by-section... –Vipz (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is only because it is way easier for me, honestly. And since we are trying to make the same edits at the moment, I will just let you be, organise and reorganise, okay? VMORO 16:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Garygo golob, nobody but me seems to have any desire to comment, so you can go ahead — at your own leisure and naturally. The only thing I can remember from the North Macedonian side is the insistence that their dialects be divided according to their own classification — and that should be Northern (which coincide with Bulgaro-Macedonian Torlak), Western and Southern/Eastern. If someone wants to correct me, pls do. VMORO 22:05, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Garygo golob, @VMORO, @Kluche: are we looking forward to any progress regarding this? It's been almost two months since the above message. –Vipz (talk) 11:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@VMORO, Kluche, and Vipz: I have updated the map. If there are any additional issues, please list them below. Garygo golob (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the very, very, very late reply, I have been taking a bit of a leave from Wikipedia. The map is wonderful and the best thing that can be done with so many disgruntled, nationalistic POVs. Please post it everywhere, if not, I will do it myself later.
VMORO 14:23, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo speaks Albanian

Someone should replace the current photo with the photo that excludes Kosovo from Slavic-speaking countries using the File:Slavic europe (Kosovo unshaded).svg ~2025-42614-19 (talk) 19:36, 30 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:South_Slavic_languages