The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.‎

The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 16:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rizal National Science High School (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) – (View log)

This article was not sanctioned by the administration of the Rizal National Science High School. I urgently demand the Wikipedia to delete this article. This article has already caused a lot of trouble in the school, with the teachers and students. Please, to anyone who wishes that this article be sustained, please think again. The trouble this article had brought did not just damage the school name but damaged the whole of the Rizal National Science High School Community, the names of the people who were included in the past articles. I made this page and I ought to be responsible for this mess the editing of the article brought, so now I want the article be removed and deleted completely. Rob alfie9 04:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I don't really understand the nominator's reason, as the article content seems quite uncontroversial (though I haven't really gone through the history) and doesn't contain any unsourced material about living people. However, the school itself does not appear to be notable. Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL, Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL, Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL cab 04:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletions. cab 04:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 04:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete But not because of the nom. The school is not notable. As to the nom, what problems has it caused? i ^said 05:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• strong keep-we don't just delete articles from the Wikipedia just because they are controversial. This is a notable high school, a notable topic, and it should stay. List out the problems and they can be fixed. Yes, it's crufty, no, it's not deletion-worthy. See WP:IDON'TLIKEIT. Chris 05:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Keep we don't delete articles because you dislike it. The school certainly doesn't have to sanction our article for it to exist. No valid criteria given for deletion.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 06:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• strong keep, deleting the article to address Rob alfie9's concerns is not necessary as any personal details can be removed from the article, and from the history if that is necessary. I am pretty confident that local/regional newspaper and other reliable sources will be added in time. John Vandenberg 06:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not per nom, but because this school is simply not notable, as shown by User:CaliforniaAliBaba.--Victor falk 11:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Neutral. It seems that a Republic Act was enacted to create this school. [1]. I don't know if it gives notability but I'm sure Science schools are set apart from normal high schools here in the Philippines.--Lenticel ^(talk) 13:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to keep. I'm now convinced that a law enacted to create your school is enough notability.--Lenticel ^(talk) 11:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep The scope and nature of the school and its curriculum are strong evidence of notability, above and beyond the overwhelming consensus demonstrated based on WP:OUTCOMES that high schools in general are notable. Alansohn 13:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Keep per WP:OUTCOMES as mentioned above. shoy 16:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment — Where is the AfD template on the article page? The lack of a template makes this look like an improper AfD nomination. Overall the article is lacking in citations, especially regarding the awards the school has supposedly won. The tone is also somewhat non-encyclopedic and non-neutral. The school may well be more notable than is typical, but the article needs more work to demonstrate such. — RJH (talk) 16:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I have now added an AFD template. Camaron1 | Chris 16:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Alansohn, the school does appear to be notable. The article could use a bit of editorial clean up, but this isn't the forum for discussing those issues. Burntsauce 17:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Article does clearly need a cleanup and further references, though it does not seem that controversial to me. The article suggests that the school does appear to have some importance - a search indicates the school is mentioned on many websites though nothing very conclusive. It has to be taken into account though that my searches is restricted to English speaking sources only. Camaron1 | Chris 18:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Speedy Keep per WP:OUTCOMES. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smashville (talk • contribs) 19:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Just because your school's administration did not give their permission to post this article doesn't give us enough reason to delete this article based on Wikipedia guidelines. In fact, any such permission or sanction is never needed anyway. Besides, even an alumni or a casual passerby to this school with enough reliable contacts willing to give a helping hand will be able to create the article anyway; do you think Wikipedia needs to contact the living descendants of Jose Rizal's family just to create the article about him? Or, to consider contemporary examples, I don't think local celebrities such as Regine Velasquez, Francis Escudero and maybe even Victor Wood ever came to Wikipedia to complain that they weren't happy the article about them existed. Take a look around at the articles about schools and colleges on Wikipedia...chances are, they're not even sanctioned by their respective administrations. University of the Philippines? Ateneo de Manila University? University of Santo Tomas? Xavier School? Name it, it's here. And not one of their administrators complained and asked to have the articles removed. As for any "damage", I wasn't able to find any information that might be considered demeaning or degrading to your school, so if ever you find one such information, I invite you to go ahead and edit, you're welcome to do so (and more so since you admitted it's your school). With regard to the school itself...there are only few public science high schools in the Philippines, and these are almost always created by virtue of a republic act, so I'd go against deleting this article on the grounds that it's like state colleges and universities (like UP and PLM and the other State Universities in most major provinces) and, as a science high school, is legally on the same level as the Philippine Science High School. I would rather push for improving this article. --- Tito Pao 22:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, I usually think almost all high schools are worty of inclusion, because of their importance to the local community etc. This is no exeption. We can't delete it just because it's not sanctioned by the administration of said institution. bbx 23:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Contra Alansohn and everyone claiming "per Alansohn", WP:OUTCOMES#Education says nothing about automatic notability of high schools. Also you all should see Wikipedia:Speedy keep; it's not a valid vote when other reasons beyond the nomination have been presented for the article's deletion. I might be convinced that, e.g. "all national science high schools in the Philippines are notable" if someone presented actual sources about those schools in general, but "it's a high school therefore it's notable therefore we don't have to bother sourcing it" is not acceptable. cab 23:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Subjects of articles do not need to give permission for articles to be created on them, there is a anti-Wikipedia guy who has tried to get his article deleted because he doesn't like the site. However, this scholl does not appear to be notable (and high schools are NOT automatically notable, they have to pass WP:N just like everything else). TJ Spyke 00:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep The wishes of the subject are less important than the integrity of Wikipedia. - Dravecky 01:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep for reasons explained at User:Silensor/Schools. It is also interesting that a Republic Act was enacted to create the institution. Silensor 04:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.241.220 (talk) 05:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This one can be disregarded as the anonymous user didn't even sign in, the bulk of their edit history is at this article, and they have not given a reason for deletion. Sockpuppet. Chris 21:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: I don't understand the nominator, but I do understand that this is a nn topic. CRGreathouse (t | c) 02:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Not all high schools are notable, but schools created by a national legislature is. --Howard the Duck 04:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Delete: The article has been vandalized once and can be vandalized again. To avoid such event, deletion should be done at once. None of those who answered "Keep" actually know about the controversy caused by the vandals of the articles. Also, the deletion of this article is not motivated by personal interests but by far deeper matters.- CK Luna 04:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
• reply every article ever on the Wikipedia has or will be vandalized, that's the nature of the policy allowing anyone to edit. And you're right, nobody who has answered "delete" due to controversy has ever bothered to answer what the controversy was about. Until you do, you've nothing to point at others with. Get over yourself. Chris 04:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A grand total of 1 person has said "delete because of vandalism". The rest of us have all said "delete despite nominator", because no one is bothering to show it's notable. The closest thing that's been shown is that it belongs to a class of schools which are notable --- in which case an overview article National Science High Schools in the Philippines would be appropriate, to where this can redirect and receive an appropriate description there (i.e. not a listing of subject teachers, heads of clubs, etc). Also, you might want to avoid language like "get over yourself". AfD is supposed to be a joint process of discovery to determine whether a Wikipedia-suitable (WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS) article can be written about a subject, not a war. Regards, cab 04:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm tired of those who claim special knowledge about a topic to the exclusion of other editors, wherever they are found. I know what to avoid and when. Chris 05:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as nn school. User:Alansohn et al are trying to invent consensus (via outcome) that simply doesn't exist. Eusebeus 05:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:Eusebeus is continuing with his fantasy that notability does not exist and demanding that all school articles be deleted because he just doesn't like them, based on a rambling screed that completely ignores any Wikipedia policy. Despite the empty bluster from Eusebeus, consensus is amply clear that this and all other such schools are notable. Alansohn 05:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I hope my fantasies are a bit spicier than school debates with Alan. Meanwhile, since you have enjoyed my "screed", please read: User:Eusebeus/School_Notability#Lack_of_Consensus_Does_not_Mean_Lack_of_Good_Faith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eusebeus (talk • contribs) 19:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Nice one, Eusebus. I think I'll have the occasion to cite your essay in the future... or in the past[2] (:--Victor falk 19:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep Schools are uncontroversial topics. I don't see any other school complaining (like mine, Colegio San Agustin-Makati) about their school having a Wikipedia article until this one. Frankly, I wouldn't support deletion for RNSHS unless the school admin gives substantial reasons for its deletion. The reasons given by the proposer are quite baseless given that permission is not required to write Wikipedia articles on any topic, no matter how big or small, and given the context of this AFD, some schools are actually quite proud that their institution has a Wikipedia article. --Sky Harbor 11:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• strong delete-I just think it should be given the fact that the administration of the school wanted it deleted. Also, I think the school shall have its own website that is why they want the article be deleted. --allen 05:30 pm , 10 October 2007 (UTC)
• strong delete-Since I don't think that the article matters at all--aryu 09:54 pm, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The two previous delete votes (the ones after my previous comments but before this one) originate from the same anon IP (122.2.120.192) But anyway, unless there is an express valid reason to why the article should be deleted, there is no basis for such action to be taken. Mere upheaval of the RiSci community without valid reason or basis is no reason to delete the article. --Sky Harbor 14:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment This discussion is headed in a bad direction. People WP:CHILL, be civil, assume good faith, don't discuss wp:outcomes, what deletion guidelines wikipedia should have if any, accuse each other of deletionism/inclusionism, and concentrate at the matter at hand, namely if this school fulfils WP:N.--Victor falk 14:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per User:Silensor/Schools and User:Xoloz/Schools. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per the above. --Myles Long 22:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per long standing consensus as indicated by WP:OUTCOMES that high/secondary schools are notable. There's no reason to single out this high school for special deletion. --Oakshade 04:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment All we (students and teachers who supported the articles deletion) plead is that the article be permanently removed to avoid being vandalized agaib which will eventually defame the school more. I am fully aware of the policies that you guys have but can you please start thinking about the sake of other people's honors? The vandalism done by theriscian has already stripped our school of its honor. Every other school in th province is talking about us. Now what would you feel if you were in our place? Or do you even have feelings!? All you think about is yourself, you never give other people a chance, you never care about the honor, about reputation just because they aren't yours and will not help you in anyway. Okay, I know I'm definitely going too far so sorry... but, we're not asking you delete the article just because we don't like it. We want it to be deleted so we can at least move on and rest assured that whatever happened in the past will not repeat again. Sincerely yours, 58.71.109.21 14:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I tell you what...if you find anything offensive placed on this article by one of the "less civilized" or trouble students in your school, go ahead and remove the offending edit, we're not going to stop you. The mere fact that you can write in your comments even anonymously means that you could do this to the article yourself. If you're having problems with the way it's written, the only way to go is to contribute and make improvements to the article. And, hey, if you can even make it a featured article like Stuyvesant High School, then you're more than welcome...it'll be nice to have an FA about a Philippine school, it'll be something nice to have. Just don't worry about the vandals and the good-for-nothing edits, you can change it yourself (otherwise, there's no point in me responding to you, whoever you are). If you're having problems with the editor going by the name "theriscian", then you can report him to one of the Wikipedia administrators so that they can deal with him. But articles on Wikipedia can't be deleted merely because you don't like it to appear here. You'll need to come up with more substantial reasons than that. --- Tito Pao 19:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with Tito Pao wholeheartedly. If you have a problem with the article because of some editor, you report it through the proper channels and the system does the rest. Deleting an article because of some editor is way too extreme for actions of vandalism, which can be reported and reverted, and the vandalizing user can be blocked from editing the article or Wikipedia in general. --Sky Harbor 05:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The deletion rationale is wholly invalid, and it has been demonstrated that this school is notable. RFerreira 21:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Delete:Just delete this. Put an end to the debate. Why are you making your life more complicated by posting that this article should be kept? Just type strong delete, eat, sleep, and that's it. You made almost 500 students of Rizal National Science High School carry lighter loads. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fayeorwhatsoever (talk • contribs) 06:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Simply saying you don't like an article for whatever reason doesn't give an impetus to have it deleted on Wikipedia, you'll need more substantial reasons than that. You'll make things easier for you if you can also contribute to make this article a better article. You're more than welcome to help improve this article. Thanks. --- Tito Pao 21:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong KeepAs a graduate of a public science high school myself, I strongly believe this article should stay.

1. It has been demonstrated that the school is notable. Lenticel's link showing that the school was created by virtue of a Republic Act is enough to convince me, [3] besides the fact I believe the public has the right to know about its public science high schools.

2. The argument in favor of deletion is not only invalid, its unfair to a general public who have the right to information about this school. Isn't it paid for by taxpayer's money? And don't parents have the right to know about the school if they are considering allowing their children to study there?

However I DO AGREE that the article needs work - it doesn't cite its sources and has far too much irrelevant information (The school hymn, fine. But does the public really need to know who the current head of the MAPEH club is? I think not. In the meantime, the article says virtually nothing about the educational facilities of the school, its academic performance, etc.

As for what supposed trouble it has caused - I don't get it at all. I understand that vandalism would cause some grief, but that's easily correctible. That's why we watch articles for vandalism. Thats why we have reverts. And frankly, that's the nature of life in an information society. Is there any reason other than vandalism you'd like to bring up? Because that's the only vaguely acceptable argument for deletion that has been brought forward other than notability (which I've already covered).Alternativity 09:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.